Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Gary]

Just what kind of a life would that person have if they lived like you just said. Guess what? If someone thought they were saved for always, and did whatever they wanted? They are deceived!! They are not saved at all. You can't live like that and be considered a true believer in Christ. Check out the "sin unto death" if a person did live doing anything he/she wanted to do? If they are a believer, they won't live long. God is not about to let a believer like that ruin His reputation.

So when exactly is an individual actually saved? When does an individual pass from unsaved to saved?
.

 

[Butch5]

It absolutely IS a difference without a distinction. Tell me how knowing either way would effect your Christian life. It doesn't make a bit of difference.

It may not affect your Christian life but It affects Christian doctrine. If we have it wrong it may lead to errors in other doctrines that might affect one's Christian life

 

[Deborah13]

Besides an apparent misunderstanding about who I thought you said the letter of Galatians is written to, I did address your post. If you want to, you can tell me why I'm wrong. I'm listening.

Can you address my answers one by one to the scriptures you ask me about in Galatians? Then we can see how we differ or don't in our interpretation of those scriptures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

This my friends is God's promise to save those that He has foreordained to be saved, and to keep them saved until the resurrection. To say that person can loose that Salvation is to reject the power of the Holy Spirit, who is our guarantee, to keep us saved.

It isn't that the power of the Holy Spirit is suspect in non-OSAS. The power of the Holy Spirit is contingent on having and maintaining faith in Christ. I don't think we're in disagreement on that point.

The Bible says, if you have that faith then you have the power of God. Faith is how you have the protection of God's power:

"...you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB)

So it follows, if you do not have that faith you no longer have the power of God that faith secures. :

Believing is how we access the sure power of God you speak of, and which we agree on. The problem with OSAS is it ignores the scriptures about losing that faith and not standing fast in it to the very end in order to take hold of the sure hope and power of God believing secures for us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you address my answers one by one to the scriptures you ask me about in Galatians? Then we can see how we differ or don't in our interpretation of those scriptures.

Yeah, no problem. I can go into more pointed detail.

 

[Deborah13]

It isn't that the power of the Holy Spirit is suspect in non-OSAS. The power of the Holy Spirit is contingent on having and maintaining faith in Christ. I don't think we're in disagreement on that point.

The Bible says, if you have that faith then you have the power of God. Faith is how you have the protection of God's power:

"...you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB)

So it follows, if you do not have that faith you no longer have the power of God that faith secures. :

Believing is how we access the sure power of God you speak of, and which we agree on. The problem with OSAS is it ignores the scriptures about losing that faith and not standing fast in it to the very end in order to take hold of the sure hope and power of God believing secures for us.

Are you talking your interpretation of OSAS or are you talking Calvinism?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It may not affect your Christian life but It affects Christian doctrine. If we have it wrong it may lead to errors in other doctrines that might affect one's Christian life

I generalize the OSAS/ predetermined salvation doctrines as 'I'm saved and there's nothing, good or bad, I can do about it' doctrines. These doctrines have great potential for adversely affecting how a Christian lives and the consequences for how they live.

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah, no problem. I can go into more pointed detail.

Great. My post #469.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you talking your interpretation of OSAS or are you talking Calvinism?

I would have to review his personal construct of beliefs one by one and compare them to what I presently know the Bible says in order to answer that.

Basic OSAS to me is you can't be lost once you believe in Christ, no matter what you do. The thinking being, you can't do anything to get saved, thus you can't do anything to get lost. From there the argument goes that if you do go wrong, you were never saved to begin with.

The details vary, but this is the basic understanding of OSAS I know about. How this aligns with Calvy, I don't know. I don't study the theologians of history. I find them frustratingly carnal and academic, not spiritual. I learn from the Bible. I'm not being arrogant, just being honest. I get 'spiritual' from the Bible, but I get 'fleshly reasoning' from historical authors and their writings.

 

[Chopper]

No, it's not clear, because you did not understand the question (it's a question, not the putting of words put into your mouth).

Why does your doctrine, if I understand your statement correctly, not acknowledge that the 'believing' in salvation comes from the person, not from God?

To get my point across, I ask you, "did God do your believing for you?" Is that how utterly of God salvation is?

No, it's not clear, because you did not understand the question (it's a question, not the putting of words put into your mouth).

Why does your doctrine, if I understand your statement correctly, not acknowledge that the 'believing' in salvation comes from the person, not from God?

To get my point across, I ask you, "did God do your believing for you?" Is that how utterly of God salvation is?

Jethro, I just said they must believe the Gospel, BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, BELIEVE THE GOSPEL! IT WAS IN WHAT YOU QUOTED THAT I SAID!

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, I think the someone you are referring to in your other post says the outcome is automatic. Salvation being a vehicle that is set on autopilot and can not be reprogrammed for those who are 'predestined' for salvation.

That is not my statement. I've never seen that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, I just said they must believe the Gospel, BELIEVE THE GOSPEL, BELIEVE THE GOSPEL! IT WAS IN WHAT YOU QUOTED THAT I SAID!

I'm not challenging your belief that the gospel must be believed. Nobody is that I know of.

What I'm asking you is, "did God do your believing for you?" Is that how utterly of God salvation is?

Don't you see the significance of my questions? I will explain it to you if you don't see.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro Bodine said: ↑
Chopper, I think the someone you are referring to in your other post says the outcome is automatic. Salvation being a vehicle that is set on autopilot and can not be reprogrammed for those who are 'predestined' for salvation.

That is not my statement. I've never seen that.

So I can understand your doctrine, explain, then, how salvation is NOT a pre-programmed and automatic outcome for those of the predestined group.

Don't get angry at me if you're failing to get your point across. I'm being patient and polite and giving you the opportunity to explain. Which I wish people would do for me, but I know that is not generally how it goes in these forums.

 

[reba]

I am thinking this thread could use a big plate of View attachment 4186 View attachment 4187 View attachment 4188

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Gal. 1:9 - is not saying they were all saved. Paul here is defending the Gospel message that they had received from him. That is clear in the next verse and others. He goes on talking about his ministry and message that he received from God, not men and other things like in 1:18. This continues into chapter 2, the Judaizers were trying to discredit him.

While this is all true concerning the challenge being made to Paul, the point of Galatians 1:9, which I brought up, is they received the gospel:

"9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" (Galatians 1:9 NASB)

And we know their receiving of the gospel was not just hearing the gospel but accepting the gospel, because they have the Holy Spirit:

"...did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" (Galatians 3:2-5 NASB)

Don't get side tracked by the points he's making about the law, or about his ministry. Read the emboldened words. They make the point I wanted to make in bringing up these Galatians passages that I did in my original post. They show us he is addressing saved, Spirit-filled people. That is the important point I was making. We have to know this when we read what he says to saved, Spirit-filled people.

I'm not sure exactly what I should be addressing about the matters you brought up in regard to the defense of his ministry and the points about law keeping and OSAS except that perhaps you are showing me it's NOT about OSAS. But you are certainly free to explain it to me better. But I'm showing you how these passages have everything to do with what OSAS believes.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
So here there is a clear statement that at least some of them had received the Spirit.
Galatians chapter 3-4:31 Paul is making his argument for justification by faith.

Galatians chapter 5-6:10 (about there) he tells them to stand fast in the liberty of the gospel.
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

So in verse 1, I believe Paul is talking about the Law, again. As he is through out Galatians. Hagar
Verse 2 - He tells them it that serving the Law there is no profit in Christ.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

So whosoever is justified by the law, is a debtor to do the Whole law, therefore they are not justified by grace.
This would be a total rejection of the grace we find in justification through Christ.

No one, even those in the OT were justified by the Law. They had to wait for Christ to justify them.

I already commented on these, and revisiting them I don't see how you're applying the things you've highlighted to OSAS...if that was what you were trying to do . And you are certainly free to explain in more detail. But I know why I brought the passages up that I did. And the point is Galatians 5...

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4 NASB)

The point being, Paul is telling the saved Galatians they have done what OSAS says can not happen to saved people--they have fallen from grace. By turning away from justification in Christ (which we know from the earlier passages they really do have) and toward another source of justification (in this case, the law), they are forfeiting the justification they have in Christ:

"4 You have been severed from Christ..." (Galatians 5:4 NASB)

But OSAS says this turning away, this severing, this falling away is impossible to happen. And that this severing and falling away really isn't in regard to what Paul is so plainly talking about -- justification through Christ. The saved Galatians have put their justification through Christ in jeopardy by turning to another source of justification.

And by explaining this justification in terms of law vs. grace we know this is NOT about James' definition of justification (practical justification--what we see with our eyes in ourselves). I will not risk confusing the matter by explaining the difference. Perhaps you know the difference already.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am thinking this thread could use a big plate of View attachment 4186 View attachment 4187 View attachment 4188

Yes!

Just don't lock the thread, lol.

 

[Deborah13]

While this is all true concerning the challenge being made to Paul, the point of Galatians 1:9, which I brought up, is they received the gospel:

"9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" (Galatians 1:9 NASB)

And we know their receiving of the gospel was not just hearing the gospel but accepting the gospel, because they have the Holy Spirit:
"...did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" (Galatians 3:2-5 NASB)

Don't get side tracked by the points he's making about the law, or about his ministry. Read the emboldened words. They make the point I wanted to make in bringing up these Galatians passages that I did in my original post. They show us he is addressing saved, Spirit-filled people. That is the important point I was making. We have to know this when we read what he says to saved, Spirit-filled people.

I'm not sure exactly what I should be addressing about the matters you brought up in regard to the defense of his ministry and the points about law keeping and OSAS except that perhaps you are showing me it's NOT about OSAS. But you are certainly free to explain it to me better. But I'm showing you how these passages have everything to do with what OSAS believes.


I already commented on these, and revisiting them I don't see how you're applying the things you've highlighted to OSAS...if that was what you were trying to do . And you are certainly free to explain in more detail. But I know why I brought the passages up that I did. And the point is Galatians 5...

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5: NASB)

The point is, Paul is telling the saved Galatians they have done what OSAS says can not happen to saved people--they have fallen from grace. By turning away from justification in Christ (which we know from the earlier passages they really do have) and toward another source of justification (in this case, the law), they are forfeiting the justification they have in Christ:

"4 You have been severed from Christ..." (Galatians 5:4 NASB)

But OSAS says this is impossible to happen. And that this severeing and falling away is in regard to what Paul is so plainly talking about -- justification through Christ. The saved Galatians have put their justification through Christ in jeopardy by turning to another source of justification. And by explaining this justification in terms of law vs. grace we know this is NOT about James' definition of justification. I will not risk confusing the matter by explaining the difference. Perhaps you know it already.

So where did we have differing views?

 

[n2thelight]

Ok now I see what you are saying. The statement by onelove is all about Calvinism! not just eternally security.
That there is no need to repent because you were saved from the foundations of the world.

From what I can tell you could tie the Calvin back to back with Arminius, and have a tug of war and end up in exactly the same place.

Has nothing to do with Calvin,it was just a simple question.....When we accept Christ in our live's,we become saved,dosn't mean we become perfect,for as long as we are in the flesh,we will sin.....That is the purpose of repenting,it dosn't mean one get's saved again,else you crucify Christ anew.....However you can't keep on sinning,without repenting,and expect to remain saved....Thus my question,why do we need to repent,if we are always saved,point being,it's not possible,meaning OSAO,isn't either......

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4 NASB)
The point being, Paul is telling the saved Galatians they have done what OSAS says can not happen to saved people--they have fallen from grace. By turning away from justification in Christ (which we know from the earlier passages they really do have) and toward another source of justification (in this case, the law), they are forfeiting the justification they have in Christ:
"4 You have been severed from Christ..." (Galatians 5:4 NASB)
But OSAS says this turning away, this severing, this falling away is impossible to happen. And that this severing and falling away really isn't in regard to what Paul is so plainly talking about -- justification through Christ. The saved Galatians have put their justification through Christ in jeopardy by turning to another source of justification.

I just don't think it can be explained anymore clearly than this.

Well done!


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I just don't think it can be explained anymore clearly than this.

Well done!


JLB

Thank you, kind sir. :nod