Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Chopper]

So I have questions again.
1)Did they say to you that they wanted to reject their salvation and that they didn't care?
2)Or did they say they were going to Do some sin that you told them was against what God would want them to do and they said they did care they were going to do it anyway?
3)And because you never saw them again does that mean they never walked with the Lord again?

1. They did not say they wanted to reject Salvation.
2. The sin that they were committing was what they were still going to do.
3. In the Christian circles that we used to engage in, that person never came. This person would avoid me if she saw me in a store.

Years later, she was not involved with anything Christian....Was she saved? On outward appearances, no. In her heart? Only God and she knows.

 

[Chopper]

Do you think we really know those answers, most of the time? It's tragic when someone goes through this, but we can hope it's not permanent...a crisis of faith, a dark night of the soul. Sometimes we can be there for them, and sometimes they have a more lonely journey.

 

[Deborah13]

The reason the things happened, is that God foresaw them happening, just as God foresaw those who would believe, and He chose them in Him [Christ], the Elect One.

You are elect, because you are in The Elect One.

You are not elect, outside of The Elect One.

Once you have that unshakable foundation of Truth, then you can build successfully upon that.


JLB

I agree.
The word foreknowledge, knowing beforehand
I searched in a Koine Greek dictionary because Strong's sometimes gives definitions that fit a doctrine, or scripture rather than just giving how the word was used in the language in a pure sense.
Strong's does say this if you follow through to the root words. Strong's wants to add that this word also means predestine but as we can see in the verse below there is a different Greek word for predestine, and it means something different that foreknew. Look to the end of the post...

Romans 8:29 - For G3754 whom G3739 he did foreknow, G4267 he G4309 G0 also G2532 did predestinate G4309 to be conformed G4832 to the image G1504 of his G846 Son, G5207 that G1519 he G846 might be G1511 the firstborn G4416 among G1722 many G4183 brethren. G80

So the definition of predestine in the Koine Greek dictionary (lexicon) is the same as Strong's.
"to predetermine"

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow (knew beforehand), he also did predestinate (predetermine) to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (mine)


ρογινώσκω = perceive understand beforehand
proginosko

 

[Chopper]

Your statement there kinda puts the kibosh on the OSAS belief.

There's a very important message in that passage from Matthew and most people just gloss over it or ignore it all together.

It is my belief that salvation isn't determined until after the last breath of the individual.
.

I have said before, there are two classes of believers. One is the elect or remnant chosen by God Himself and keeps them saved by His great power.

The second class of people are those who come thru the General Call of the Gospel. They can walk away from their commitment to Jesus Christ. Personally, I have never witnessed a person like that, at least that I knew they were lost. I've seen people who abandon their faith for a time and then come back.

The first group are OSAS. The second group are non-OSAS.

Now please don't respond with "second class Christians" They are just as precious to our Lord as the elect. Perhaps even more because they had no help from God to commit to Jesus other than the power in the Gospel message. So, I admire those who are non-OSAS because they are really committed to Jesus.

So you say, why does God think it's necessary to have the elect or remnant. Why not give everyone just a choice. That is because God started the whole thing with Israel and they ended up a rebellious stiff necked bunch of idol worshipers. So to avoid that He planned their Salvation and their continuing in that Salvation right to the end.

These are my thoughts, and I'm sticking to um!

 

[Deborah13]

Do you think we really know those answers, most of the time? It's tragic when someone goes through this, but we can hope it's not permanent...a crisis of faith, a dark night of the soul. Sometimes we can be there for them, and sometimes they have a more lonely journey.

I completely agree with this statement.
We cannot know how and what the Lord is working in their lives and in their hearts. And when someone judges them and they know it, it can make them stumble again and undo the progress they have made.

 

[Chopper]

I agree.
The word foreknowledge, knowing beforehand
I searched in a Koine Greek dictionary because Strong's sometimes gives definitions that fit a doctrine, or scripture rather than just giving how the word was used in the language in a pure sense.
Strong's does say this if you follow through to the root words. Strong's wants to add that this word also means predestine but as we can see in the verse below there is a different Greek word for predestine, and it means something different that foreknew. Look to the end of the post...

Romans 8:29 - For G3754 whom G3739 he did foreknow, G4267 he G4309 G0 also G2532 did predestinate G4309 to be conformed G4832 to the image G1504 of his G846 Son, G5207 that G1519 he G846 might be G1511 the firstborn G4416 among G1722 many G4183 brethren. G80

So the definition of predestine in the Koine Greek dictionary (lexicon) is the same as Strong's.
"to predetermine"

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow (knew beforehand), he also did predestinate (predetermine) to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (mine)


ρογινώσκω = perceive understand beforehand
proginosko

Deb, you bring up a very interesting subject with the word foreknow. A lot of people use the word foreknow to mean that God looked into the future to determine who would be saved, and then chose them as the elect.

My understanding of the word foreknew was that He actually knew the makeup of the person before he/she was born. Then He chose that person to be a part of the elect. I use Jeremiah as an example. Jer. 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

 

[Chopper]

I completely agree with this statement.
We cannot know how and what the Lord is working in their lives and in their hearts. And when someone judges them and they know it, it can make them stumble again and undo the progress they have made.

Absolutely right Deb. That is why we are cautioned not to judge! We need to help that person get up again. Put an arm around them, and encourage them, love them back to the fold....I like your statement very much! Bravo!

I remember a fellow that was a missionary. He worked with me in a house church that I had started. Time went on and all of a sudden he committed adultery. As he was involved in this sin, I approached him to try and get him to repent. He swore at me, spit at my face and left abruptly. Because I knew Jesus loved him, and I did too, I kept it up and eventually he repented, got back with his wife and today he is still serving the Lord out west somewhere. God is good. I'm glad I didn't give up on him.

 

[Deborah13]

Deb, you bring up a very interesting subject with the word foreknow. A lot of people use the word foreknow to mean that God looked into the future to determine who would be saved, and then chose them as the elect.

My understanding of the word foreknew was that He actually knew the makeup of the person before he/she was born. Then He chose that person to be a part of the elect. I use Jeremiah as an example. Jer. 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

This is how I see it, much like JLB.

We are righteous before God because Jesus is righteous and we are in Him. Scripture plainly says that.
We are the seed of Abraham because Jesus is the Seed also plainly stated in scripture.
We are beloved of the Father because Jesus is His beloved Son
We are chosen because He is the Chosen one.
We inherit because He inherited all things.
We will be raised because He rose from the dead.

Without Him we have nothing.

 

[Chopper]

This is how I see it, much like JLB.

We are righteous before God because Jesus is righteous and we are in Him. Scripture plainly says that.
We are the seed of Abraham because Jesus is the Seed also plainly stated in scripture.
We are beloved of the Father because Jesus is His beloved Son
We are chosen because He is the Chosen one.
We inherit because He inherited all things.
We will be raised because He rose from the dead.

Without Him we have nothing.

 

[Gary]

The first group are OSAS. The second group are non-OSAS.

That first group shouldn't even be brought into the equation because no one knows who they are...except God. An individual may be chosen but they'd never know it. They would still need to strive for the narrow gate.
.

 

[jeff77]

You added the phrase, "go to hell", which created another topic and question.

Salvation is associated with Eternal life.

Eternal life is knowing God, and Jesus Christ whom He sent.

One reason to repent is so we can know God.


JLB

I know I'm a little behind but I just want to see what yall think about my view of repenting. When I repent or ask for forgiveness for my sins I am doing it because I have sinned against God personally and I have a relationship with Him that is similar to a relationship between father and son. Kind of like children disobeying their parents and asking for forgiveness. I don't repent out of fear of losing my salvation. It doesn't make sense to me because I believe the Lord wants us to follow Him because we choose to. If one's salvation is at stake if they don't repent then the motive would be more about yourself than truly being sorry.

 

[n2thelight]

Stated very clearly and without being rude.
So are you saying that the only reason to repent, change your mind and therefore your actions will follow, is only so that you will be remain saved?

It is true for salvation and sanctification but also......
For me repenting or not is the difference in keeping a clear conscious in order to remain in communion with the Lord. How does one face someone that they have wronged? How does one speak openly and honestly with someone they have hurt? How does one speak to one they should honor while they are in disagreement? How does one look face to face with the Lord when they are ashamed? How does one ask this same one for help when their relationship is in this condition?

Hopefully someday the Lord can say that I am not just His wayward child but also His friend.

Thank you,I try

Not so much as your actions will follow,but more so because of your actions......For those who say,a person was never saved to begin with,is a cop out,for once you accept Christ in your life,you are at that moment saved,period....My point is,and I feel scripture confirms is,you can't keep doing the things that you use to,and expect not to fall from His grace......

Flesh is weak and we will fall short,that's why we repent,because of those short comings......

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe you are a case in point of these Scriptures Jethro. Experientially you have lost the Justification of God.

No. I have not lost the justification James talks about (as opposed to Paul's justification). By God's grace it is growing all the more.

You don't believe you are justified for all time and you are.

I know that the one time sacrifice of Christ is sufficient to completely justify for all time. But that one sacrifice that completely justifies one time for all time (it doesn't need to be made again) is applied through trusting in that sacrifice. That believing--that trusting--in the sacrifice is what is subject to variance, not the sufficiency of the sacrifice. Believing changes the application of Christ's sufficient one-time sacrifice, not the sacrifice itself.

You are sharing the common misunderstanding of Christ's 'one time, for all time, for all sin' sacrifice in Hebrews. Somehow it got understood to mean it's so far reaching that it doesn't even depend on faith to keep it applied for all sin for all time.

You are already seated with Christ in the heavenly as a 100% Justified Saint.

Not if I turn my back on the faith that secured that 100% justification for me. Faith is what keeps the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice ever before the Father on my behalf. That's how it got there, that's how it stays there. We see a picture and type of this in the law where the sacrifice had to stay on the altar all night long.

Eph 2:6~~and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Experientially, we can lose Justification. Positionally we cannot.

Me and you understand the difference between Paul's and James' justification, but perhaps you have forgotten that James says the person who can not justify themselves experientially can not be saved by the faith he boasts of having.

And the author of Hebrews warns us that "without holiness no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14 NIV)

Revelation teaches us that you must be an overcomer to not be hurt by the second death:
"He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death." (Revelation 2:11 NASB)

This doesn't mean behavioral perfection. It means continuing in faith and having your sins under the blood and not forsaking trust and reliance in the blood to keep us clean and blameless before God. But which does have an outward cleansing, sanctifying effect, causing us to grow in holiness and be overcomers, not fall deeper into sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The condition is the quality of the presentation not the fact of it happening or not.

Some believers will not be presented to the Lord Blameless and beyond reproach.

You can not be saved by a faith that does not make you blameless and beyond reproach.

'Blameless and beyond reproach' does not mean sinless perfection. It means having your guilt covered by the blood of Christ when you do sin. If you don't have your sin guilt covered because of a loss of faith in, or contempt for, Christ's sacrifice--the only sacrifice that does that can do that for you--then you can not be saved by that sacrifice, no matter how much you trusted in it before.

"15 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Believing that does not hold fast to the end is believing that was done in vain.

1 Cor 5:5~~I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

How are you missing that 1) this person had to be brought back to repentance, and 2) in order to be saved? But your doctrine makes it unnecessary for this Corinthian sinner to be brought to repentance so he can "be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". He was always and forever saved, so why does he need to be turned over to satan to be saved? It's clearly saying that if there is no deliverance of the flesh over to satan for destruction his spirit will not be saved in the day of Christ. The connection is unmistakable.

1 Cor 3:15~~If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

But in context this has nothing to do with Paul's personal holiness. That's why it can't touch his salvation.

The loss he may suffer is the loss of the Corinthians. He will lose the reward of his labor in the kingdom (ref. Philippians 2:15-16 NASB), not lose his positional justification (James' justification).

(Notice in the Philippians 2:15-16 reference that them being blameless and pure is what he says they need to be so that they will be in the kingdom as Paul's fruitful labor which he will glory in, not labor that is burned up. But your doctrine says that isn't necessary for them to be blameless and pure for them to be in the kingdom, and that they will be there anyway--blameless or not--for Paul to glory in as work he labored for in this life.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We are righteous before God because Jesus is righteous and we are in Him. Scripture plainly says that.
We are the seed of Abraham because Jesus is the Seed also plainly stated in scripture.
We are beloved of the Father because Jesus is His beloved Son
We are chosen because He is the Chosen one.
We inherit because He inherited all things.
We will be raised because He rose from the dead.

Without Him we have nothing.

Thus the danger of being:

Severed from the vine, (Romans 11:22 NASB)

Not being part of his house, (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)

Not sharing in Christ, (Hebrews 3:14 NASB)

Severed from Christ, (Galatians 5:4 NASB)

All are warnings delivered by Paul to believers to stand fast in what they have. But OSAS, and it's varying teachings, says that either these things can't happen to those who really did once place their trust in Christ, or you can still have Christ and the benefit of salvation (being in the vine, attached to him, in his house, etc.) if you stop believing and trusting in Christ, or show contempt for that which you have received.

 

[WIP]

When I repent or ask for forgiveness for my sins...

A little off topic but I would like to suggest that repentance is far more than just asking for forgiveness. Repentance is a complete about face away from the sin encompassing a change of heart and attitude about the sin.

 

[gr8grace3]

I know I'm a little behind but I just want to see what yall think about my view of repenting. When I repent or ask for forgiveness for my sins I am doing it because I have sinned against God personally and I have a relationship with Him that is similar to a relationship between father and son. Kind of like children disobeying their parents and asking for forgiveness. I don't repent out of fear of losing my salvation. It doesn't make sense to me because I believe the Lord wants us to follow Him because we choose to. If one's salvation is at stake if they don't repent then the motive would be more about yourself than truly being sorry.

I agree Jeff.

We move on after salvation. Now that we believe, we have a relationship with the Lord. Not a life of trying to keep ourselves saved.

If we live as if to keep ourselves saved, we are doing "human good works" and will be burned up in the end. The motive is wrong.

I would just add, that for a believer it is name and site your sin(to God) and move on with life. 1 John 1:9~~If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. By doing this we are no longer grieving or quenching the Spirit and are returned to fellowship with God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It doesn't make sense to me because I believe the Lord wants us to follow Him because we choose to.

You're speaking of the maturity that the believer grows up into, not starts out in.

"18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18 NASB)

Nothing wrong with wanting to be saved because of a good healthy fear of the weeping and gnashing of teeth in hell. That is the fear we start out in, but we grow up into a sincere love for the one who saved us from that fate. As John says, we get perfected in love.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we live as if to keep ourselves saved, we are doing "human good works" and will be burned up in the end. The motive is wrong.

Having faith, and continuing in faith to be saved is NOT included in the damnable works that Paul says can not justify. But if I'm wrong please show me.

Somehow the church started including even the work of believing, if I do it, as constituting a self righteous effort to be saved. But that is exactly the effort we are to expend in order to be justified/saved.

This misguided effort to rip the 'work' of believing from the hands of believers to avoid making the gospel a works gospel seems to be the energy behind these 'predetermined salvation' doctrines in the church today. That's why I say OSAS, and predetermined salvation have their roots in the Protestant Church's fundamental misunderstanding of Paul's teaching on grace/law-works.

 

[JLB]

I agree Jeff.

We move on after salvation. Now that we believe, we have a relationship with the Lord. Not a life of trying to keep ourselves saved.

If we live as if to keep ourselves saved, we are doing "human good works" and will be burned up in the end. The motive is wrong.

I would just add, that for a believer it is name and site your sin(to God) and move on with life. 1 John 1:9~~If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. By doing this we are no longer grieving or quenching the Spirit and are returned to fellowship with God.

Here is the flip side of that scripture -

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7

Will the blood of Jesus cleanse us of sin, if we walk in darkness, and do not practice the truth?

Is seems from 1 John, that being cleansed of sin, is predicated on walking in the light.

If we continually live in a sinful condition, and name and cite our sin to God, without ever turning from our sinful lifestyle, will our sins be forgiven.

Will we be considered to be walking in the light as He is in the light?

I'm curious to know what your position is on this.


Thanks JLB