Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Chopper]

That first group shouldn't even be brought into the equation because no one knows who they are...except God. An individual may be chosen but they'd never know it. They would still need to strive for the narrow gate.
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Absolutely!! Very Good explanation. That is exactly what happens. First group people have to repent, accept Jesus, be Baptized, and walk the narrow road because if he doesn't he is in danger of loosing his Salvation just like everyone else.

 

[gr8grace3]

Here is the flip side of that scripture -

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7

Will the blood of Jesus cleanse us of sin, if we walk in darkness, and do not practice the truth?

Is seems from 1 John, that being cleansed of sin, is predicated on walking in the light.

If we continually live in a sinful condition, and name and cite our sin to God, without ever turning from our sinful lifestyle, will our sins be forgiven.

Will we be considered to be walking in the light as He is in the light?

I'm curious to know what your position is on this.


Thanks JLB

I believe that the Christian needs to know experiential sanctification and positional sanctification.

Positionally, Yes all sins have been forgiven for the believer(they actually have been for the unbeliever also)Did Christ pay for the sins of the WHOLE world or not?. We ALL continually live in a sinful condition(Experientially). A believer just has The Spirit of God in them to "show" us some of them.

JLB, this doctrine of eternal security is a pretty important truth is it not? One of us has it wrong and is not practicing the truth and walking in the Darkness. I believe that it is a pretty big sin to misrepresent Gods word and if it is you or me that continually misrepresents His word, we ARE forgiven and the blood of Jesus has cleansed us.

And Yes, I believe that every time we name and site a sin to God we are returned to fellowship with Him. Even if we know we are going to do the same thing tomorrow.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe that the Christian needs to know experiential sanctification and positional sanctification.

Positionally, Yes all sins have been forgiven for the believer(they actually have been for the unbeliever also)Did Christ pay for the sins of the WHOLE world or not?. We ALL continually live in a sinful condition(Experientially). A believer just has The Spirit of God in them to "show" us some of them.

JLB, this doctrine of eternal security is a pretty important truth is it not? One of us has it wrong and is not practicing the truth and walking in the Darkness. I believe that it is a pretty big sin to misrepresent Gods word and if it is you or me that continually misrepresents His word, we ARE forgiven and the blood of Jesus has cleansed us.

And Yes, I believe that every time we name and site a sin to God we are returned to fellowship with Him. Even if we know we are going to do the same thing tomorrow.

Did He die for the sins of the world?
Well, John Calvin and the doctrine of Limited Atonement says no and I can understand his reasoning. He understood what that meant. "It is Finished" in the Greek was literally a term that was used in commerce, it meant "paid in full". So if you were to be brought before a judge and someone else had paid your debt, you were not ever required to paid it again.

Wesley would say, as I understand, that yes He did pay the debt but it doesn't effect you unless you receive it and you can be required to pay it again. So you must keep receiving the payment as if it is paid gradually as time goes by to cover each sin as it is committed and forgiven. Like the old pentecostal song about the fountain of blood.

What does "returned to fellowship" mean to you?
I've heard it used to mean different things to different people.

 

[JLB]

I believe that the Christian needs to know experiential sanctification and positional sanctification.

Positionally, Yes all sins have been forgiven for the believer(they actually have been for the unbeliever also)Did Christ pay for the sins of the WHOLE world or not?. We ALL continually live in a sinful condition(Experientially). A believer just has The Spirit of God in them to "show" us some of them.

JLB, this doctrine of eternal security is a pretty important truth is it not? One of us has it wrong and is not practicing the truth and walking in the Darkness. I believe that it is a pretty big sin to misrepresent Gods word and if it is you or me that continually misrepresents His word, we ARE forgiven and the blood of Jesus has cleansed us.

And Yes, I believe that every time we name and site a sin to God we are returned to fellowship with Him. Even if we know we are going to do the same thing tomorrow.

If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 1 John 1:6

JLB

 

[Chopper]

I believe that the Christian needs to know experiential sanctification and positional sanctification.

Positionally, Yes all sins have been forgiven for the believer(they actually have been for the unbeliever also)Did Christ pay for the sins of the WHOLE world or not?. We ALL continually live in a sinful condition(Experientially). A believer just has The Spirit of God in them to "show" us some of them.

JLB, this doctrine of eternal security is a pretty important truth is it not? One of us has it wrong and is not practicing the truth and walking in the Darkness. I believe that it is a pretty big sin to misrepresent Gods word and if it is you or me that continually misrepresents His word, we ARE forgiven and the blood of Jesus has cleansed us.

And Yes, I believe that every time we name and site a sin to God we are returned to fellowship with Him. Even if we know we are going to do the same thing tomorrow.

JLB, this doctrine of eternal security is a pretty important truth is it not? One of us has it wrong and is not practicing the truth and walking in the Darkness. I believe that it is a pretty big sin to misrepresent Gods word and if it is you or me that continually misrepresents His word, we ARE forgiven and the blood of Jesus has cleansed us.
gr8grace3, this statement of yours boarders on judging a person of which is not in your authority. I urge you to be very careful in how you view others belief in the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Positionally, Yes all sins have been forgiven for the believer(they actually have been for the unbeliever also)Did Christ pay for the sins of the WHOLE world or not?.

Yes, but his payment for sin is applied through faith.

"...we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. " (Romans 5:1-2 NIV)

"This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NIV)

That's why we are told to maintain our faith in God's forgiveness to the very end. Stop standing firm and established in faith and you lose that which faith accesses for you. The 'one-time for all time' sacrifice (meaning it does not have to be made repeatedly) stops being applied to your life if you abandon your faith in that sacrifice, or treat it with contempt.

JLB, this doctrine of eternal security is a pretty important truth is it not? One of us has it wrong and is not practicing the truth and walking in the Darkness. I believe that it is a pretty big sin to misrepresent Gods word and if it is you or me that continually misrepresents His word, we ARE forgiven and the blood of Jesus has cleansed us.

Even though this is directed to JLB, this is exactly the point I wanted to bring up.

Assuming that what I'm saying is not true, I'd still rather err on the side of telling people they have to be holy and blameless to enter the kingdom, instead of erring on the side of telling them it doesn't matter if they are holy and blameless because they will still get into the kingdom but minus rewards, if that way really is wrong. And as it is, Paul is apparently 'erring' on the same side I am:

"14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing,15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain." (Philippians 2:14-15 NIV)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Wesley would say, as I understand, that yes He did pay the debt but it doesn't effect you unless you receive it and you can be required to pay it again. So you must keep receiving the payment as if it is paid gradually as time goes by to cover each sin as it is committed and forgiven. Like the old pentecostal song about the fountain of blood.

Excellent.

Now settle the question as to whether or not someone bathed in the fountain can choose to stop being continually bathed in that fountain, and see from scripture that they do have the choice to do that, you will be non-OSAS.

 

[gr8grace3]

JLB, this doctrine of eternal security is a pretty important truth is it not? One of us has it wrong and is not practicing the truth and walking in the Darkness. I believe that it is a pretty big sin to misrepresent Gods word and if it is you or me that continually misrepresents His word, we ARE forgiven and the blood of Jesus has cleansed us.
gr8grace3, this statement of yours boarders on judging a person of which is not in your authority. I urge you to be very careful in how you view others belief in the Holy Scriptures.

One of us is wrong Chopper. I included myself in that statement. The Good news is,Is that I trust JLB and Myself are saved men.

 

[gr8grace3]

Did He die for the sins of the world?
Well, John Calvin and the doctrine of Limited Atonement says no and I can understand his reasoning. He understood what that meant. "It is Finished" in the Greek was literally a term that was used in commerce, it meant "paid in full". So if you were to be brought before a judge and someone else had paid your debt, you were not ever required to paid it again.

Wesley would say, as I understand, that yes He did pay the debt but it doesn't effect you unless you receive it and you can be required to pay it again. So you must keep receiving the payment as if it is paid gradually as time goes by to cover each sin as it is committed and forgiven. Like the old pentecostal song about the fountain of blood.

What does "returned to fellowship" mean to you?
I've heard it used to mean different things to different people.

Returned to fellowship is walking in the Spirit again. One is no longer grieving or quenching the Spirit.

Christ paid for the Sins of the whole world and He propitiated His Father 100% on the Cross. Not one unbeliever will go to hell for their personal sins. They Go because they have never made a decision For Christ. We have to recognize that we are a sinner and Christ Died for us and Rose again for us.

Sin is a distraction to an unbeliever to keep them away from Christ. But That sin has been paid for. We see it at the GWTJ.

Rev 20:12~~And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.....Ergon is the Greek word that means "works." Not sins.

unbelievers will attempt to "earn" their way into heaven. Only Jesus met that standard. Everyone else were sinners and fell short of the glory of God. They rejected the Work of Jesus Christ for their salvation and stood on their own righteousness.

It is one of the reasons why the age of accountability even has a voice for Christians. It is not a sin issue any longer. Children or retarded people never stood on their own righteousness for their salvation. Most sure did sin however.

 

[Deborah13]

Returned to fellowship is walking in the Spirit again. One is no longer grieving or quenching the Spirit.

Christ paid for the Sins of the whole world and He propitiated His Father 100% on the Cross. Not one unbeliever will go to hell for their personal sins. They Go because they have never made a decision For Christ. We have to recognize that we are a sinner and Christ Died for us and Rose again for us.

Sin is a distraction to an unbeliever to keep them away from Christ. But That sin has been paid for. We see it at the GWTJ.

Rev 20:12~~And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.....Ergon is the Greek word that means "works." Not sins.

unbelievers will attempt to "earn" their way into heaven. Only Jesus met that standard. Everyone else were sinners and fell short of the glory of God. They rejected the Work of Jesus Christ for their salvation and stood on their own righteousness.

It is one of the reasons why the age of accountability even has a voice for Christians. It is not a sin issue any longer. Children or retarded people never stood on their own righteousness for their salvation. Most sure did sin however.

Thanks for such a complete answer.

 

[Chopper]

Excellent.

Now settle the question as to whether or not someone bathed in the fountain can choose to stop being continually bathed in that fountain, and see from scripture that they do have the choice to do that, you will be non-OSAS.

Jethro, I really like what Gary pointed out and I believe that what he said is very true, and based on that I'm non-OSAS!! That first group shouldn't even be brought into the equation because no one knows who they are...except God. An individual may be chosen but they'd never know it. They would still need to strive for the narrow gate.

I have gone thru Hebrews, and noted all the verses that warn against falling away from their profession of Jesus Christ as their Savior. I firmly believe that it is possible for everyone to be able to walk away from Jesus and loose out in the end....Even the elect. I have always believed that God has the power to keep His elect saved until the end. BUT! who am I to disregard all the Scriptures in Hebrews that say that they can fall away. Certainly Paul (?) is writing to the dispersed Jews, but ALL Scripture is profitable for doctrine. And I suspect that some of those Jews were among the "elect", so I have changed my mind after a careful examination, by the Holy Spirit, of Hebrews. Traditional teaching of mainline Baptist Churches has always been pre-trib rapture, and OSAS.

I want you to know that your teaching has made an impression on my mind, that's the reason I no longer believe in OSAS! I will post some of the Scripture that changed my mind.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

There are also Scriptures in Hebrews that are a caution to all believers in the Christ....Heb. 10:23; 10:26,27; 10:35,36; 12:15; and 12:25.

After my study and pondering the outcome of all these verses. I can't help but to believe that every Christian must continue in his/her faith/confidence in what Jesus Christ accomplished on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins. And, since Gods ways are not my ways, and Gods thoughts are not my thoughts, I dare not believe that a Christian should go thru his redeemed life thinking that he/she won't loose their Salvation. Such thinking could result in not fearing to walk that straight and narrow path that leads to the end of our life as a proven Biblical saved individual.

Thank you Jethro for your patience, I love you!

 

[reba]

I remember the same folks being saved every Sunday night... something aint right about that..
Somethings dont fit in " O sure i accepted Jesus into my life 40 years ago so i am ok...

Some where there is a balance... I believe people are 'more saved' then i grew-up believing..
I also believe Jesus is not a door mat

 

[Chopper]

I remember the same folks being saved every Sunday night... something aint right about that..
Somethings dont fit in " O sure i accepted Jesus into my life 40 years ago so i am ok...

Some where there is a balance... I believe people are 'more saved' then i grew-up believing..
I also believe Jesus is not a door mat

 

[Deborah13]

I remember the same folks being saved every Sunday night... something aint right about that..
Somethings dont fit in " O sure i accepted Jesus into my life 40 years ago so i am ok...

Some where there is a balance... I believe people are 'more saved' then i grew-up believing..
I also believe Jesus is not a door mat

I believe that, too.
More saved than I first thought but you can't take advantage and get away with it.

 

[gr8grace3]

I remember the same folks being saved every Sunday night... something aint right about that..
Somethings dont fit in " O sure i accepted Jesus into my life 40 years ago so i am ok...

Some where there is a balance... I believe people are 'more saved' then i grew-up believing..
I also believe Jesus is not a door mat

I still see the same folks "saved" every sunday morning. In churches that have alter calls, walking an Isle, the sinners prayer. They will repeat again and again.

Anybody that says,"I accepted Jesus into my life 40 years ago." may not be saved. We come to Him and Believe. We do not "accept" Jesus into our lives. Who are we to invite Jesus into our depraved lives? He invites us to come to Him and Believe what He did for us.

The more I study, The more shocked we will be at who is in Heaven. And we will be even more shocked at who is not.

Just look at the Pharisees, If we couldn't hear what was coming out of their mouths and Just watched their "fruit" we would ALL assume they were going to see the Kingdom. They were moral,went to temple,helped the poor,taught "good" things,believed in One God,knew the Torah inside and out, Yet they were miles away from the kingdom.

 

[reba]

YUP gr8grace

 

[Deborah13]

I still see the same folks "saved" every sunday morning. In churches that have alter calls, walking an Isle, the sinners prayer. They will repeat again and again.

Anybody that says,"I accepted Jesus into my life 40 years ago." may not be saved. We come to Him and Believe. We do not "accept" Jesus into our lives. Who are we to invite Jesus into our depraved lives? He invites us to come to Him and Believe what He did for us.

The more I study, The more shocked we will be at who is in Heaven. And we will be even more shocked at who is not.

Just look at the Pharisees, If we couldn't hear what was coming out of their mouths and Just watched their "fruit" we would ALL assume they were going to see the Kingdom. They were moral,went to temple,helped the poor,taught "good" things,believed in One God,knew the Torah inside and out, Yet they were miles away from the kingdom.

I thought He invites us into His life and we accept the invitation.

 

[reba]

I gave up being so picky about words a while back... the semantics make me nuts...

 

[Edward]

Interesting thread. I used to be hard core OSAS, but not any more. It is scriptural that we must hold fast to the end, and that Christ is faithful and just to forgive us our sin(s). (1John 1:8-10) speaks of this. We will continue to sin, but we must confess them and ask forgiveness.

It also speaks in places in scripture about having ones name blotted out of the book of life. Now why would it say this if it were not possible? If we were never saved in the first place, then there would be nothing to blot out? :yes

So run the race, keep your eyes fixed upon Jesus, Keep your fear of the Lord, keep your faith in the Lord, and meditate upon his precepts, judgments, and commandments day & night. Walk with Him. Invite Him to go with you everywhere. Keeping this mindset of always having the Lord with you is very beneficial, as well as true.

Great thread!

 

[Mike S]

Interesting thread. I used to be hard core OSAS, but not any more. It is scriptural that we must hold fast to the end, and that Christ is faithful and just to forgive us our sin(s). (1John 1:8-10) speaks of this. We will continue to sin, but we must confess them and ask forgiveness.

It also speaks in places in scripture about having ones name blotted out of the book of life. Now why would it say this if it were not possible? If we were never saved in the first place, then there would be nothing to blot out? :yes

So run the race, keep your eyes fixed upon Jesus, Keep your fear of the Lord, keep your faith in the Lord, and meditate upon his precepts, judgments, and commandments day & night. Walk with Him. Invite Him to go with you everywhere. Keeping this mindset of always having the Lord with you is very beneficial, as well as true.

Great thread!

You see, isn't it instructive that the more we think about it OSAS - the more we pray to understand scripture - the more we agree with John Wesley and the less we agree with George Whitefield? In the early days of Methodism in America that was not the case, Whitefield's Calvinist influence was more accepted as Methodist doctrine than was Wesley's Arminianism.