Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Chopper]

Yep! :yes

One of the biggest problems as I see it Mike is, what we have been taught in the past by men of good reputation. I have been a Baptist since 1974. The Bible College that I graduated from was Baptist. I believe that most of the men that I sat under for various teachings were Baptist. One was Pentecostal. Of course, all the doctrines were backed up with Scripture. I have defended these Baptist doctrines with vigor. Now at this time of being older, and close to my departure from this old earth, I find myself having to re-examine these doctrines. Having joined CF.net has opened the eyes of my mind to other doctrines that I must now consider if they are truly Biblical. Some of my theology has had to change because of an honest examination and laying aside my preconceptions.

One of my primary likes has been the KJV of the Bible. I have other versions that I have used for different occasions but the KJV has always been my favorite, UNTIL I came across the ESV version. I have boasted about this translation quite a bit. I have found a few problems with it but nothing that big....This morning, I was studying Isaiah 59. The ESV completely leaves out V.19 "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him". There was no note on why it was removed and that troubles me. SO, I have gone back to my KJV. I guess what I'm saying is, I have to be able to change my thinking when it appears that Truth may not be what I have been taught over the years.

 

[Chopper]

some times i do believe we over analyze way too much... We can talk things to death...

I have been thinking that very same thing Reba.

 

[Butch5]

One of the biggest problems as I see it Mike is, what we have been taught in the past by men of good reputation. I have been a Baptist since 1974. The Bible College that I graduated from was Baptist. I believe that most of the men that I sat under for various teachings were Baptist. One was Pentecostal. Of course, all the doctrines were backed up with Scripture. I have defended these Baptist doctrines with vigor. Now at this time of being older, and close to my departure from this old earth, I find myself having to re-examine these doctrines. Having joined CF.net has opened the eyes of my mind to other doctrines that I must now consider if they are truly Biblical. Some of my theology has had to change because of an honest examination and laying aside my preconceptions.

One of my primary likes has been the KJV of the Bible. I have other versions that I have used for different occasions but the KJV has always been my favorite, UNTIL I came across the ESV version. I have boasted about this translation quite a bit. I have found a few problems with it but nothing that big....This morning, I was studying Isaiah 59. The ESV completely leaves out V.19 "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him". There was no note on why it was removed and that troubles me. SO, I have gone back to my KJV. I guess what I'm saying is, I have to be able to change my thinking when it appears that Truth may not be what I have been taught over the years.

And, if you look at the Septuagint you'll what was left out of the KJV (Masoretic text). It makes you wonder.

 

[Free]

One of my primary likes has been the KJV of the Bible. I have other versions that I have used for different occasions but the KJV has always been my favorite, UNTIL I came across the ESV version. I have boasted about this translation quite a bit. I have found a few problems with it but nothing that big....This morning, I was studying Isaiah 59. The ESV completely leaves out V.19 "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him". There was no note on why it was removed and that troubles me. SO, I have gone back to my KJV. I guess what I'm saying is, I have to be able to change my thinking when it appears that Truth may not be what I have been taught over the years.

And yet, there is nothing in verse 19 that was removed, it is simply a difference in translation:

19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. (KJV)

19 So they shall fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come like a rushing stream, which the wind of the LORD drives. (ESV)

 

[Chopper]

And, if you look at the Septuagint you'll what was left out of the KJV (Masoretic text). It makes you wonder.

I know it Butch, I don't really know what to believe anymore as it comes to an accurate translation of the original manuscripts. Do you have any suggestions?

 

[Chopper]

And yet, there is nothing in verse 19 that was removed, it is simply a difference in translation:

19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. (KJV)

19 So they shall fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come like a rushing stream, which the wind of the LORD drives. (ESV)

For me, it's identifying the "he". It doesn't appear to be the "enemy" because the text is speaking about the Lord. So does the Lord come in like a rushing stream?

 

[Deborah13]

For me, it's identifying the "he". It doesn't appear to be the "enemy" because the text is speaking about the Lord. So does the Lord come in like a rushing stream?

NASB
18 According to their deeds, so He will repay,
Wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies;
To the coastlands He will make recompense.
19 So they will fear the name of the Lord from the west
And His glory from the rising of the sun,
For He will come like a rushing stream
Which the wind of the Lord drives.
20 “A Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the Lord.

imo
In this case the ESV and the NASB makes more sense and the thought follows.
HE is the one taking the victory when He comes, like a rushing stream drive by the wind.
HE the Redeemer will come.....

ESV - https://www.crossway.org/bibles/esv/translation/manuscripts/

 

[Chopper]

And yet, there is nothing in verse 19 that was removed, it is simply a difference in translation:

19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. (KJV)

19 So they shall fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come like a rushing stream, which the wind of the LORD drives. (ESV)

I did a little research on this verse, and apparently there are quite a few differing interpretations on V.19. Each of these have differing views. Jerome, Septuagint, Chaldee, Syriac, and Lowth. Apparently "The Spirit of the Lord" is a misrepresentation and should read "A strong wind". So I guess I'll stay happy with my ESV. In many ways I like the wording better than the KJV, but I always have the KJV right beside the ESV so that I can get both readings. This particular rendering of V.19 did shake me up a little. That will teach me not to jump at conclusions before I've had a chance to study it out.

Anyway, thank you for your reply, I'm always interested in your point of view. It was your opening statement that got me studying. You're a good friend.

 

[Butch5]

I know it Butch, I don't really know what to believe anymore as it comes to an accurate translation of the original manuscripts. Do you have any suggestions?

I try to look at as many as I can. I do prefer the Septuagint over the Masoretic text though for the OT as that is what Jesus and the apostles used. It's hard wit the NT text because it seems everyone wants to make their own.

 

[Chopper]

NASB
18 According to their deeds, so He will repay,
Wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies;
To the coastlands He will make recompense.
19 So they will fear the name of the Lord from the west
And His glory from the rising of the sun,
For He will come like a rushing stream
Which the wind of the Lord drives.
20 “A Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the Lord.

imo
In this case the ESV and the NASB makes more sense and the thought follows.
HE is the one taking the victory when He comes, like a rushing stream drive by the wind.
HE the Redeemer will come.....

ESV - https://www.crossway.org/bibles/esv/translation/manuscripts/

Thank you Deb. for that information. I have that statement on the origin of the ESV in the introduction of my copy. My Bible is a crossway edition. It has the finest leather binder with the softest leather I've ever owned, I like the way it is put together. I have the study edition and has valuable study notes....Again, thank you for your post, I always like and appreciate your views on Scripture and theology in general. You're a smart Gal.

 

[Butch5]

I know it Butch, I don't really know what to believe anymore as it comes to an accurate translation of the original manuscripts. Do you have any suggestions?

Here's the Septuagint \.

19 So shall they of the west fear the name of the Lord, and they that come from the rising of the sun his glorious name: for the wrath of the Lord shall come as a mighty river, it shall come with fury. (Isa 59:19 LXE)

 

[Chopper]

I try to look at as many as I can. I do prefer the Septuagint over the Masoretic text though for the OT as that is what Jesus and the apostles used. It's hard wit the NT text because it seems everyone wants to make their own.

Well, I did some examination in several sources and found out that V.19 is a hard verse to translate, quite a few different opinions. After those studies, I feel better about the ESV. Thank you for your reply, I appreciate that, and you!

 

[Chopper]

Here's the Septuagint \.

19 So shall they of the west fear the name of the Lord, and they that come from the rising of the sun his glorious name: for the wrath of the Lord shall come as a mighty river, it shall come with fury. (Isa 59:19 LXE)

Please excuse my ignorance, but can I purchase of a copy of the LXE?

 

[reba]

Wow God i messed up...
Lord save me.....
O gracious Father have mercy on me a sinner....
Jesus....
Forgive me i have sinned...
does it really matter the words we use when He looks on our hearts?

 

[Chopper]

Wow God i messed up...
Lord save me.....
O gracious Father have mercy on me a sinner....
Jesus....
Forgive me i have sinned...
does it really matter the words we use when He looks on our hearts?

I don't think it matters as long as we're not asking for a pink elephant when asking forgiveness.

 

[reba]

We get too lost in saying the right words... wither it is baptized and saved or saved and baptized .. round and round hush up and get it done...
IS Jesus really going to say to the OSAS crowd go to the end of the line... or vise versa? Will he say to Joe " You didnt trust me enough to know you should have been OSAS.... Or the other way?

Seems to me how we treat one another is more important then the exact wording... We are so blessed to have Bibles all over the place most of us have more then one... there are still christians who treasure a page of scripture... and we battle over this one or that...

Think i need get off the soap box

 

[veryberry]

I don't think it matters as long as we're not asking for a pink elephant when asking forgiveness.

When you start doubting Gods word, you will start to doubt biblical doctrine as well. Satan is the father of lies. He couldn't stop you from being born again, but he can hinder your growth in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[agua.]

.. round and round hush up and get it done...

yes Ma'am !

 

[Deborah13]

We get too lost in saying the right words... wither it is baptized and saved or saved and baptized .. round and round hush up and get it done...
IS Jesus really going to say to the OSAS crowd go to the end of the line... or vise versa? Will he say to Joe " You didnt trust me enough to know you should have been OSAS.... Or the other way?

Seems to me how we treat one another is more important then the exact wording... We are so blessed to have Bibles all over the place most of us have more then one... there are still christians who treasure a page of scripture... and we battle over this one or that...

Think i need get off the soap box

Words of wisdom, from the soap box. :nod

 

[reba]

yes Ma'am !

Thanks Deborah13