Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Butch5]

Please excuse my ignorance, but can I purchase of a copy of the LXE?

Hi Chopper,

It's the Septuagint , It's actually the LXX not the LXE. The LXE is just the way that the BibleWorks program differentiates the Greek and English copies of the Septuagint. You can download a pdf version. If you want a bond copy you can purchase the Apostolic Bible, it's an interlinear Bible that uses the Septuagint for the OT. It's interesting because quite a few passages (especially in Hebrews) that are quoted from the OT don't match when you look at the Masoretic text. However, when you look at the Septuagint you can see that they were quoted from the Septuagint.

Here is the Polygot version

http://apostolicbible.com/

Here is Brenton's translation

http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/

 

[JLB]

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

The key word in this passage is inherit. A Christian will loose his/her inheritance, but will still be saved, yet so as by fire

Here are the words of Jesus Christ using the same phrase inherit the kingdom -


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Here is what those who do not inherit the kingdom will hear -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Inherit the kingdom - Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you...
will not inherit the kingdom - Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...

will not inherit the kingdom is clearly a phrase that indicates a person who did not obtain salvation.

JLB

 

[veryberry]

Stop believing on the Lord who died for your sins, was buried and rose again the third day, and you have not everlasting life... not saved forever.

JLB

Will you be going to heaven because you believe? or because of (how that Christ died for our sins, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day) what Jesus Christ did for you?

After believing, have you ever had an inkling of a thought, what if this is not true?

 

[JLB]

Veryberry said -

I don't ignore the fact that the bible teaches that one can loose his salvation. Do you ignore the fact that the bible teaches Eternal Security(OSAS)?

Here is my post # 625 -

I for one, am soooooo glad that it is not by my own effort, that I am able to continue steadfast until the end.

For I can say with all honesty, it is by Grace I am saved, and it is by Grace I will continue to be saved.

The faith that I have, comes from Him... It does not originate from me, but it is produced in me, by His Voice, His drawing upon my heart, His leading me and guiding me...

Somewhere along the way I have learned to stay within the length of His rod and His staff, for they comfort me.

I am definitely Non OSAS! However, I know where my help comes from. Without Him, I can do nothing! Not even have faith.

So, there is a balance....


JLB

 

[JLB]

Will you be going to heaven because you believe? or because of (how that Christ died for our sins, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day) what Jesus Christ did for you?

After believing, have you ever had an inkling of a thought, what if this is not true?

No. Personally I have had no such thoughts.

I have been backslidden, and fell into a sinful lifestyle, but there has never been any amount of alcohol or drugs that could drowned out my faith and hope in Him, ever!


His grace brought me back and restored me.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Well, I did some examination in several sources and found out that V.19 is a hard verse to translate, quite a few different opinions. After those studies, I feel better about the ESV. Thank you for your reply, I appreciate that, and you!

I looked at the Greek text of the Septuagint and the Hebrew Masoretic text. The word for spirit Is present in the Masoretic text in that passage but it is not present in the Greek Septuagint. The Septuagint was translated from older Hebrew manuscripts about 250-300 BC. It was the Bible of the day at Jesus' time.

Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate you too!

 

[veryberry]

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21




Here are the words of Jesus Christ using the same phrase inherit the kingdom -


31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Here is what those who do not inherit the kingdom will hear -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Inherit the kingdom - Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you...
will not inherit the kingdom - Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...

will not inherit the kingdom is clearly a phrase that indicates a person who did not obtain salvation.

JLB

Again, this passage is at the end of the tribulation time period. After Jesus Christ has defeated the anti-Christ. We, will already be in our glorified bodies. Jesus will be tossing the "cursed" (people who took the mark, the number, or who worshipped the beast) bodily into everlasting the fire. The rest of the unsaved dead, will be judged after the millennium reign. Believing Jews, will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven(which is a huge land mass in the middle east). It is their inheritance not ours.

 

[JLB]

Again, this passage is at the end of the tribulation time period. After Jesus Christ has defeated the anti-Christ. We, will already be in our glorified bodies. Jesus will be tossing the "cursed" (people who took the mark, the number, or who worshipped the beast) bodily into everlasting the fire. The rest of the unsaved dead, will be judged after the millennium reign. Believing Jews, will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven(which is a huge land mass in the middle east). It is their inheritance not ours.

The issue is the phrase, you will not inherit the kingdom of God, that Paul declares to the Galatian Christians.


This phrase you will not inherit the kingdom of God is being applied to Christians, who you admit, are placed in the same category as those who have taken the mark of the beast and turned away from Christ.

Your standard of evaluation has rightly placed both groups in the position to inherit the flames of eternal damnation in the fires of hell, because they both will not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

 

[veryberry]

No. Personally I have had no such thoughts.

I have been backslidden, and fell into a sinful lifestyle, but there has never been any amount of alcohol or drugs that could drowned out my faith and hope in Him, ever!


His grace brought me back and restored me.

JLB

Hebrews 10:26 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This seems to match what you have said.....But maybe this is not for us? If it is. I'm sorry, but we both are damned for eternity, for we both have sinned wilfully. But maybe its not, the book is titled "Hebrews". What do you think?

If you died during that sinful life style, would you be burning right now?

1 John 2:4 - He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[veryberry]

The issue is the phrase, you will not inherit the kingdom of God, that Paul declares to the Galatian Christians.


This phrase you will not inherit the kingdom of God is being applied to Christians, who you admit, are placed in the same category as those who have taken the mark of the beast and turned away from Christ.

Your standard of evaluation has rightly placed both in groups in the position to inherit the flames of eternal damnation in the fires of hell, because they both will not inherit the kingdom of God.


JLB

Matthew 25 is speaking of the Kingdom of Heaven, not the Kingdom of God. Two different Kingdoms.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper,

It's the Septuagint , It's actually the LXX not the LXE. The LXE is just the way that the BibleWorks program differentiates the Greek and English copies of the Septuagint. You can download a pdf version. If you want a bond copy you can purchase the Apostolic Bible, it's an interlinear Bible that uses the Septuagint for the OT. It's interesting because quite a few passages (especially in Hebrews) that are quoted from the OT don't match when you look at the Masoretic text. However, when you look at the Septuagint you can see that they were quoted from the Septuagint.

Here is the Polygot version

http://apostolicbible.com/

Here is Brenton's translation

http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/

Thank you very much Butch, I really, really, appreciate this.

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

JLB said, "Jesus forgiveness is based on your faith."

This is an erroneous assumption, but it is one you are no less entitled to embrace.

The BASIS of Jesus' forgiveness is HIS mercy and grace and the fact that HE gave Himself as the substitutionary appeasement to God for the punishment of our sins.

It is our faith, and Ephes 2: 8-9 tells us that our faith itself is not of ourselves but rather of God, in this real basis just mentioned which opens us up to its preexistance. If we lack faith the basis/forgiveness remains.

In Jesus' metaphor of God's forgiveness even though the prodigal son had abandoned his father and was living a life of sin, his father we are told in his son's absence went to the porch, so to speak, and looked to the horizon for his son's return. The forgiveness is always there once we are saved and the children of God; whether we have faith in it or not.

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 10:26 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This seems to match what you have said.....But maybe this is not for us? If it is. I'm sorry, but we both are damned for eternity, for we both have sinned wilfully. But maybe its not, the book is titled "Hebrews". What do you think?

If you died during that sinful life style, would you be burning right now?

1 John 2:4 - He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The writer of the letter to the Hebrews is exhorting them to remain steadfast in the face of great persecution and temptation to return to the law of Moses.

The context in which verse 26 is written, is to those who would return to relying on the law in which they were being pressured to return to under great persecution.

as these verse's indicate -

. 32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

They are encouraged to remember when at the first they endured the persecution, and joyfully accepted the plundering of their goods, but were being worn down under the continual pressure.

These would not even gather with the church anymore, but were giving in to the threats and the pressure of persecution to return to the law of Moses.

Under Moses law the was no sacrifice for a willful sin, which is what verse 26 is referring to -
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins...

22 'If you sin unintentionally, and do not observe all these commandments which the Lord has spoken to Moses-- 23 all that the Lord has commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day the Lord gave commandment and onward throughout your generations-- 24 then it will be, if it is unintentionally committed, without the knowledge of the congregation, that the whole congregation shall offer one young bull as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma to the Lord, with its grain offering and its drink offering, according to the ordinance, and one kid of the goats as a sin offering. 25 So the priest shall make atonement for the whole congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them, for it was unintentional; they shall bring their offering, an offering made by fire to the Lord, and their sin offering before the Lord, for their unintended sin. 26 It shall be forgiven the whole congregation of the children of Israel and the stranger who dwells among them, because all the people did it unintentionally. 27 'And if a person sins unintentionally, then he shall bring a female goat in its first year as a sin offering. 28 So the priest shall make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally, when he sins unintentionally before the Lord, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, for him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger who dwells among them.

30 'But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.' " Numbers 15:22-31

It is in this context that verse 26 is written. Those who were pressured to turn back to the law, were being reminded that the law made no provision for this type of sin to be atoned for.


Look at this phrase -

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Going back to the law which required the sacrifice of animals, is what is an insult to the Spirit of Grace, and counting the blood of Jesus a common thing.


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB said, "Jesus forgiveness is based on your faith."

This is an erroneous assumption, but it is one you are no less entitled to embrace.

The BASIS of Jesus' forgiveness is HIS mercy and grace and the fact that HE gave Himself as the substitutionary appeasement to God for the punishment of our sins.

It is our faith, and Ephes 2: 8-9 tells us that our faith itself is not of ourselves but rather of God, in this real basis just mentioned which opens us up to its preexistance. If we lack faith the basis/forgiveness remains.

In Jesus' metaphor of God's forgiveness even though the prodigal son had abandoned his father and was living a life of sin, his father we are told in his son's absence went to the porch, so to speak, and looked to the horizon for his son's return. The forgiveness is always there once we are saved and the children of God; whether we have faith in it or not.

The forgiveness is there, but is accessed by faith.

The prodigal son did in fact return to the father.

The prodigal son had faith in his father's love and forgiveness, which is what compelled his obedience to return.

The prodigal son's faith, together with the work of obedience [repentance] is what brought about the restoration of the relationship.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

JLB, Those two posts are very informative and accurate as I understand the Scriptures in Hebrews. Thank you very much for that Scriptural answer to a very complicated area of Scripture that many folk have questions about. You certainly have a deep and loving relationship with Jesus, the focal point of our sanctification and walk in the teachings of our Master, Christ Jesus.

 

[JLB]

JLB, Those two posts are very informative and accurate as I understand the Scriptures in Hebrews. Thank you very much for that Scriptural answer to a very complicated area of Scripture that many folk have questions about. You certainly have a deep and loving relationship with Jesus, the focal point of our sanctification and walk in the teachings of our Master, Christ Jesus.

Bless you brother!

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

But the basis of FORGIVENESS, which I was addressing, which is always there is NOT our faith, as I understand God's Word. As you say NOW and I agree, it is only accessed by our faith, which we are told God gives us in the first place. I disagree with the son returning out of obedience. We are clearly told that when he hit bottom and was eating pig slop that he thought of how well he would be taken care of even if he returned to his father as merely a servant. I understand his return to be motivated by self-preservation which also motivated his repentance.

 

[Pizza]

JLB, Those two posts are very informative and accurate as I understand the Scriptures in Hebrews. Thank you very much for that Scriptural answer to a very complicated area of Scripture that many folk have questions about. .

That is my issue with this whole thread - COMPLICATED?

Jesus' own words made it sound so simple.

"Believe in me, and in Him who sent me."
"Today, you will be with me in paradise."
"I am the good shepherd..."
"Forgive them, they know not what they do."
"...Now, go and sin no more."
"I tell you, forgive them... 70 times 7."

He sure didn't make it sound complicated to me. The only people he raised his voice to where the money-changers in the temple and the religious "leaders" (they were NOT spiritual leaders) of the day. I guess Jesus was a bit deceptive. MAN, if you can't trust your Savior, you ya gonna trust?



But I'm just a Pizzaguy in a dunce cap...

 

[Free]

I did a little research on this verse, and apparently there are quite a few differing interpretations on V.19. Each of these have differing views. Jerome, Septuagint, Chaldee, Syriac, and Lowth. Apparently "The Spirit of the Lord" is a misrepresentation and should read "A strong wind". So I guess I'll stay happy with my ESV. In many ways I like the wording better than the KJV, but I always have the KJV right beside the ESV so that I can get both readings. This particular rendering of V.19 did shake me up a little. That will teach me not to jump at conclusions before I've had a chance to study it out.

Anyway, thank you for your reply, I'm always interested in your point of view. It was your opening statement that got me studying. You're a good friend.

You're welcome. I do try.

As an aside, this is precisely why I have warned people many times on here to be careful with simply taking up a concordance to get the "true meanings" of words in an attempt to determine what a passage is "actually saying." If interpretations by biblical scholars can vary by this much, then us lay persons must tread very carefully. Some passages of Scripture are easy to interpret and understand, other parts are quite difficult (think of the Nephilim discussions, for example).

 

[Chopper]

That is my issue with this whole thread - COMPLICATED?

Jesus' own words made it sound so simple.

"Believe in me, and in Him who sent me."
"Today, you will be with me in paradise."
"I am the good shepherd..."
"Forgive them, they know not what they do."
"...Now, go and sin no more."
"I tell you, forgive them... 70 times 7."

He sure didn't make it sound complicated to me. The only people he raised his voice to where the money-changers in the temple and the religious "leaders" (they were NOT spiritual leaders) of the day. I guess Jesus was a bit deceptive. MAN, if you can't trust your Savior, you ya gonna trust?



But I'm just a Pizzaguy in a dunce cap...

I'd like an explanation of what you meant by. I guess Jesus was a bit deceptive