Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[gr8grace3]

I believe that no one will be able to snatch me out of His hand.

That is called faith. I believe this.


There are many many exceedingly precious promises, just as you have listed, and I believe them and have faith in what he promised me.

as Peter both taught us, and stirred us up to remember -

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 12 For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know and are established in the present truth. 2 Peter 1:1-12


JLB

I do not see a believer being condemned to the eternal lake of fire forever and ever in these verses.

I see what a believer will experientially live and think like if a believer does not live the Christian life.
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

It says that they have "forgotten" that they were cleansed. It doesn't say that they are no longer cleansed.

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

It still does not make sense Chopper.

You said,

Jesus will not fail in keeping him, period.
---------------
If one loses their salvation, by any means. Jesus failed at keeping them. Even if Jesus "let them Go" on their own freewill. Jesus still failed at keeping them.

That makes me think of the shepherd and the staff, used to retrieve a sheep/lamb from liniment danger. Jesus is said to be our Shepherd. And that leads to one of the sections of SCRIPTURE which supports OSAS- Jn:10:7-30. Jesus calls Himself the "Good Shepherd" and says,"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; noone can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (vs. 28-30)

 

[JLB]

I do not see a believer being condemned to the eternal lake of fire forever and ever in these verses.

I see what a believer will experientially live and think like if a believer does not live the Christian life.
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

It says that they have "forgotten" that they were cleansed. It doesn't say that they are no longer cleansed.

The point was the precious promises you listed, and that through these, we are partakers of His Divine nature.

How do we obtain the reality of these precious promises?

If God promises us something, how do we receive what He promised us?


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

For it is God who works in me, to both will and do His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13


JLB

I know that neither of us are going to change our minds on this one JLB. I would just like to see how you approach your logic and see it for myself. Just to see it, not fight you.

You say that your faith is not of your own efforts and does not originate from yourself.

JLB~~The faith that I have, comes from Him... It does not originate from me, but it is produced in me, by His Voice, His drawing upon my heart, His leading me and guiding me...

If it is not your efforts and that faith comes from Him. If you lose your salvation who failed? You then quote Philippians 2:13~~]For it is God who works in me, to both will and do His good pleasure.

If it is not by your efforts and your faith comes from Him and It is God working in you.......who fails if you lose your salvation.

 

[JLB]

gr8grace3 said -

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22) God Gave us His very own pledge. It is not a pledge from fallible man. It is a pledge from an Infallible God.

Awesome scripture! Thank you for quoting it!


20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. 23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth. 24 Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy; for by faith you stand. 2 Corinthians 1:20-24


Not that we have dominion over your faith, is another way of saying, we can't have faith for you, as we see by his statement - ... for by faith you stand.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I know that neither of us are going to change our minds on this one JLB. I would just like to see how you approach your logic and see it for myself. Just to see it, not fight you.

You say that your faith is not of your own efforts and does not originate from yourself.

JLB~~The faith that I have, comes from Him... It does not originate from me, but it is produced in me, by His Voice, His drawing upon my heart, His leading me and guiding me...

If it is not your efforts and that faith comes from Him. If you lose your salvation who failed? You then quote Philippians 2:13~~]For it is God who works in me, to both will and do His good pleasure.

If it is not by your efforts and your faith comes from Him and It is God working in you.......who fails if you lose your salvation.

Faith comes by hearing God!

God works in me, both to will and do His good pleasure.

Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

It is my faith, that is produced by God, in me.

He has given me all things that pertain to godliness.

It is by faith that I stand.


JLB

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Reba, it says what you are trying to say even better in Heb 6:4-6. I am very familiar with them, thank you. Over the years I have had them explained in a way which supports OSAS. This thread is soooooooooo loooooooooooooong that i haven't read the first 35 or so pages-I read very slow as over the decades I have learned that how it is written is just as important as what appears to be being said. After 5-10 pages an OP should study all of the input and start a new thread choreographed by that study, but I guess that would be too much work for any of us. That side note aside, I will try to go back and retrieve the justifications. It is interesting that I can't remember them. Maybe I will start by going through the first 35 pages here. It might be some time before I get back here but I do think it is worth another consideration. It REALLY does seem impossible to integrate these two sections of Scripture with OSAS but I'll see. But somehow a co-existnace must be worked out with Ro 8;1, 29-30, 38-39 and Jn 10:7-30 which certainly can be easily understood as a secure position of OSAS..

Regardless, my wife and I have known several poor souls from the Pentecostal persuasion who were always running around scared, seemingly obsessed by the concern that they might have lost their salvation and perpetually sharing that they got saved all over again time and time again. I know that that is NOT at all what God had in mind and if anyone was concerned as they that they had lost their salvation; they hadn't. They may have been backslidden at the worst. I would say that the overwhelming majority of people who get "saved" a subsequent time are of this situation. But the scenario presented in Heb 6:4-6 is of someone who would care less as their back is turned to that consideration.

CONSIDER this as long as we are on the prodigal son. The son had been in the family and tasted of how good it was to be a son and then turned his back on the father after squandering ALL which the father had worked so hard to save up for him. That prodigal surely held his father up to public disgrace as Heb 6:4-6 discusses. This is a metaphor parable of God's love and forgiveness toward us given by Jesus, God the Son, yet the prodigal was forgiven and welcomed lovingly back into the family with honor. This parable SUPPORTS OSAS.

 

[JLB]

Reba, it says what you are trying to say even better in Heb 6:4-6. I am very familiar with them, thank you. Over the years I have had them explained in a way which supports OSAS. This thread is soooooooooo loooooooooooooong that i haven't read the first 35 or so pages-I read very slow as over the decades I have learned that how it is written is just as important as what appears to be being said. After 5-10 pages an OP should study all of the input and start a new thread choreographed by that study, but I guess that would be too much work for any of us. That side note aside, I will try to go back and retrieve the justifications. It is interesting that I can't remember them. Maybe I will start by going through the first 35 pages here. It might be some time before I get back here but I do think it is worth another consideration. It REALLY does seem impossible to integrate these two sections of Scripture with OSAS but I'll see.

Regardless, my wife and I have known several poor souls from the Pentecostal persuasion who were always running around scared, seemingly obsessed by the concern that they might have lost their salvation and perpetually sharing that they got saved all over again time and time again. I know that that is NOT at all what God had in mind and if anyone was concerned as they that they had lost their salvation; they hadn't. They may have been backslidden at the worst. I would say that the overwhelming majority of people who get "saved" a subsequent time are of this situation. But the scenario presented in Heb 6:4-6 is of someone who would care less as their back is turned to that consideration.

CONSIDER this as long as we are on the prodigal son. The son had been in the family and tasted of how good it was to a son and then turned his back on the father after squandering ALL which the father had worked so hard save up for him. That prodigal surely held his father up to public disgrace as Heb 6:4-6 discusses. This is a metaphor parable of God's love and forgiveness toward us given by Jesus, God the Son, yet the prodigal was forgiven and welcomed lovingly back into the family with honor.

Consider Peter, who had denied he even knew Jesus Christ, but was restored to his place as Apostle.

What was it that Jesus prayed for him, when Satan had desired to sift him as wheat?

But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren." Luke 22:32


JLB

 

[reba]

Regardless, my wife and I have known several poor souls from the Pentecostal persuasion who were always running around scared, seemingly obsessed by the concern that they might have lost their salvation and perpetually sharing that they got saved all over again time and time again. I know that that is NOT at all what God had in mind and if anyone was concerned as they that they had lost their salvation; they hadn't.

I grew up is such a pentecostal home.... Some where in the early 70s the realization of His love being mightier then our sin hit my parents.

For me some where between OSAS and nonOSAS is a balance... Jethro said it pretty clear

Johnny R. was on his death bed so afraid to die... It was not that he didnt' trust the Lord... He just didn't get it... just like you say.. He had called for Mom & Dad they were praying for him trying to let him go in peace. Johnny loved the Lord I would bet all he is with the the Lord. His last days on this earth did not need to be filled with years of teaching that left him in fear...

 

[Deborah13]

:amen

 

[JLB]

I grew up is such a pentecostal home.... Some where in the early 70s the realization of His love being mightier then our sin hit my parents.

For me some where between OSAS and nonOSAS is a balance... Jethro said it pretty clear

Johnny R. was on his death bed so afraid to die... It was not that he didnt' trust the Lord... He just didn't get it... just like you say.. He had called for Mom & Dad they were praying for him trying to let him go in peace. Johnny loved the Lord I would bet all he is with the the Lord. His last days on this earth did not need to be filled with years of teaching that left him in fear...

Yes, Agreed.

He needed to be encouraged with all the promises of God's great love for him.

That the Lord would never leave him nor forsake him, that He was well able to keep him...


JLB

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

Agreed, the prodigal son believed that there would be a place for him in his father's house.

His belief was in his father's character, as he realized how his father treated the hired help.

In the end, his faith was in his father, not in his ability to "convince" his father to allow him to return, or his own self worth to his father.

Faith in the father, not in his own self, is what moved him to action.

The action of returning to his father, is what justified his belief, that his father would accept him back.

JLB

JLB you put words in my mouth. It seems that you are a very difficult person relationally. I don't see any belief or faith mentioned and neither did I say that. The son knew how he had and was humiliating his father. As I see it, he could have ONLY been hoping for a place of refuge from his self-perpetuated destruction. Previous Israelite laws directed the people to stone to death any disrespectful child not to mention the active commandment to honor mother and father.

 

[Chopper]

Sorry Chopper. I said I wouldn't contribute any more to this thread but what you said regarding what I had just said was just too much.

Even AFTER I gave the place in Luke where this parable is and quoted several relvant verses, Chopper said, "Actually, I see no point in debating the reasons why the prodigal returned. No one really knows what was going on in his mind. For us to say "he thought this" and someone else said "no, he thought that", We don't know!"

We DO know, brother, unless you think God's Word is fallable and errant.

Lk 15:17-18a NIV "When he came to his senses he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death. I will go back to my father and say to him, "Father, I have sinned agianst heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' So he got up and went to his father."

Jim, this statement of yours, We DO know, brother, unless you think God's Word is fallable and errant, is almost an insult! We are viewing a man who made a decision, only God knows for sure what was in his mind, you do not! And neither do I! My "theory" is based on a life time with the father, gr8grace3 made a good statement, "It's about the Father". Even I, when I did something wrong, and I went to my father to undo my wrong because I needed a favor, I would seek a lesser situation hoping that he really would give me the better because I acted ashamed. Guess what, it works....And by the way, God's Word is in-errant, and in-fallible!

 

[Chopper]

This is how I see it too. The son knew that the father treated the hired hands very well and realized that he would be better off at least as a hired hand...and was surprised at the reception he got.

Actually I feel that the son was very clever at manipulating his father into what he wanted, getting the money was one of them. My theory is, if he went to his father with a very humble, ashamed, and contrite spirit, his dad would not make him a servant, but what he did. He may have been surprised at all the gala, but not being a son again. The older brother may have reacted the way he did because this kid was always tricking his father, and had been his fathers favorite.

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

Chopper, then we DO know what was on the mind of the prodigal as SCRIPTURE clearly tells us as I shared.

 

[Chopper]

It still does not make sense Chopper.

You said,

Jesus will not fail in keeping him, period.
---------------
If one loses their salvation, by any means. Jesus failed at keeping them. Even if Jesus "let them Go" on their own freewill. Jesus still failed at keeping them.

I'm speaking about people who claim to be saved, but are not really. Jesus said "I never knew you".

 

[gr8grace3]

I'm speaking about people who claim to be saved, but are not really. Jesus said "I never knew you".

Ok, you lost me then. You used a saved man, another Brother as an example.

So, Jesus will not fail in keeping him,Period.......to someone who makes the "Claim" of being saved?

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

Actually I feel that the son was very clever at manipulating his father into what he wanted, getting the money was one of them. My theory is, if he went to his father with a very humble, ashamed, and contrite spirit, his dad would not make him a servant, but what he did. He may have been surprised at all the gala, but not being a son again. The older brother may have reacted the way he did because this kid was always tricking his father, and had been his fathers favorite.

Chopper, What Scripture makes you think that the prodigal was NOT truly repentant and just continuing a past behavior of trickery by cleverly manipulating his father? Interesting that you believe this. If there is no Scripture to support your position it seems to me that someone here on this very thread, could it be you, has repudiated another for sharing what he thought was going through the prodigal's head.

 

[Pizza]

Oh my, I don't think I knew about your sister. She must be a wonderful woman of God to put up with MS and not be angry with God....How long has she had MS? Would you please tell me more about her? I'd like to pray for her, and you could let me know of her needs.

I talk a lot about her in my threads "Sister back in Hospital" and "Pizza's ongoing life thread". (Dont want to hijack this thread)



See post 174:
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/pizzas-ongoing-life-thread.39990/page-9

Or this whole thread:
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/sister-back-in-the-hospital.39527/


THanks Chopper!

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, then we DO know what was on the mind of the prodigal as SCRIPTURE clearly tells us as I shared.

I see, Scripture CLEARLY??