Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[gr8grace3]

That makes me think of the shepherd and the staff, used to retrieve a sheep/lamb from liniment danger. Jesus is said to be our Shepherd. And that leads to one of the sections of SCRIPTURE which supports OSAS- Jn:10:7-30. Jesus calls Himself the "Good Shepherd" and says,"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; noone can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (vs. 28-30)

Yes sir. And it has been pointed out "they shall NEVER perish". Somehow we have changed the meaning of Never. The Lord knew that this doctrine would be attacked vehemently that He even threw in the double negative of "Never", meaning no, not ever!
The doctrine of eternal security actually starts with John 5:24~~"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

The "truly truly" is a point of doctrine and means that the reader needs to pay very careful attention to what is being said.When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed.

The phrase, “Truly, truly” or “Amen, amen” is used 25 times in the Bible, all found in the Gospel of John. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

And if one studies these "truly,Truly" Statements, they are the most attacked parts or counterfeited parts of the truth.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, What Scripture makes you think that the prodigal was NOT truly repentant and just continuing a past behavior of trickery by cleverly manipulating his father? Interesting that you believe this. If there is no Scripture to support your position it seems to me that someone here on this very thread, could it be you, has repudiated another for sharing what he thought was going through the prodigal's head.

Listen Jim. My whole point is: no one knows what was going on in his mind! My theory is just as good as your theory, since the the Scripture is not clear, you think it's clear to you. That's what you THINK! Fine! Think what you want, it makes no difference to me.

 

[Chopper]

Yes sir. And I have pointed out "they shall NEVER perish". Somehow we have changed the meaning of Never. The Lord knew that this doctrine would be attacked vehemently that He even threw in the double negative of "Never", meaning no, not ever!
The doctrine of eternal security actually starts with John 5:24~~"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

The "truly truly" is a point of doctrine and means that the reader needs to pay very careful attention to what is being said.When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed.

The phrase, “Truly, truly” or “Amen, amen” is used 25 times in the Bible, all found in the Gospel of John. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

And if one studies these "truly,Truly" Statements, they are the most attacked parts or counterfeited parts of the truth.

OK guys, you probably already know that I'm a 4 point Calvinist. I have explained before that there are the "elect" those are the ones you are speaking about. The Father gave them to Jesus. I have said all along that their Salvation is secured by God. There is another group that come to believe in Jesus. They come thru the "General call of the Gospel" (GC) all the Scripture that I posted from Hebrews pertains to them. In other words, the GC believers can loose what they claim if they don't continue to the end....The Elect, have the seal of the Holy Spirit to guarantee their position in the Christ until the end.

I have always believed this difference in the two groups of believers. Now, Jethro is no dummy when it comes to theology. His presentation of non-OSAS is very compelling to say the least. His words warranted a close examination of Scriptures dealing with this subject. What got me thinking that the elect could possibly loose their Salvation was Matthew 24:24 "For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (KJV). IF IT WERE POSSIBLE. That is where I have a question. I don't think it is possible, but nevertheless, It raises a doubt.

 

[gr8grace3]

OK guys, you probably already know that I'm a 4 point Calvinist. I have explained before that there are the "elect" those are the ones you are speaking about. The Father gave them to Jesus. I have said all along that their Salvation is secured by God. There is another group that come to believe in Jesus. They come thru the "General call of the Gospel" (GC) all the Scripture that I posted from Hebrews pertains to them. In other words, the GC believers can loose what they claim if they don't continue to the end....The Elect, have the seal of the Holy Spirit to guarantee their position in the Christ until the end.

I have always believed this difference in the two groups of believers. Now, Jethro is no dummy when it comes to theology. His presentation of non-OSAS is very compelling to say the least. His words warranted a close examination of Scriptures dealing with this subject. What got me thinking that the elect could possibly loose their Salvation was Matthew 24:24 "For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (KJV). IF IT WERE POSSIBLE. That is where I have a question. I don't think it is possible, but nevertheless, It raises a doubt.

Chopper, were does it say in Matt 24:24 that the elect will burn forever and ever in the Lake of fire because they were deceived? This is a big can of worms because it is during the tribulation also.

However, we have a scripture that is being overlooked if one is going to look at it as "possible" for the elect to be deceived to the point of God sending the elect to the Lake of Fire forever and ever.

Matt 24:22~~"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.......What we have here is that it won't go as far as the elect being deceived. And we do not have God telling us "If" they were deceived, that that merited God to send the Elect to the Lake of fire forever and ever.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper, were does it say in Matt 24:24 that the elect will burn forever and ever in the Lake of fire because they were deceived? This is a big can of worms because it is during the tribulation also.

However, we have a scripture that is being overlooked if one is going to look at it as "possible" for the elect to be deceived to the point of God sending the elect to the Lake of Fire forever and ever.

Matt 24:22~~"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.......What we have here is that it won't go as far as the elect being deceived. And we do not have God telling us "If" they were deceived, that that merited God to send the Elect to the Lake of fire forever and ever.

OK, fine! Then it's impossible for the elect to be deceived....no problem!

 

[gr8grace3]

OK, fine! Then it's impossible for the elect to be deceived....no problem!

We get out of Matt 24 and the trib and into our lives at this moment , I do not think that it is impossible for the elect to be deceived. I do not believe in your interpretation of elect and general called. Election is for believers only. It is what a believer is elected to that is predestined, Not the election of believing.All believers are the elect. Elected to a predetermined plan, not elected to believe.

But if we are deceived I see nowhere in scripture that we( the elect because we have believed) are put in the Lake of fire forever and ever.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What got me thinking that the elect could possibly loose their Salvation was Matthew 24:24 "For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (KJV). IF IT WERE POSSIBLE. That is where I have a question. I don't think it is possible, but nevertheless, It raises a doubt.

The elect can not be deceived. They must willingly forfeit what they have in Christ.

Matthew 24 and 25 are very interesting non-OSAS chapters.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK, fine! Then it's impossible for the elect to be deceived....no problem!

Sorry, I wasn't following the conversation this far (tied up with other things). Just wanted to answer your inquiry into Matthew 24. Perhaps you folks have already came to the conclusion I just posted?

 

[gr8grace3]

Its interesting to me also Chopper, All who are on this thread who believe in "loss of salvation" don't question this belief of 2 categories of believers? That is a new one, and I know that the adherents of "loss of salvation" do not believe this. But you get a pass because you are willing to succumb to their beliefs.

 

[gr8grace3]

The elect can not be deceived. They must willingly forfeit what they have in Christ.

Matthew 24 and 25 are very interesting non-OSAS chapters.

Then Matt 24:24 should read ~~": For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders , so as to make the believers willingly forfeit their salvation and will burn forever and ever in the Lake of Fire." Matt 24:24~~For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then Matt 24:24 should read ~~": For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders , so as to make the believers willingly forfeit their salvation and will burn forever and ever in the Lake of Fire." Matt 24:24~~For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

"10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." (Matthew 24:10-13 NASB)

It says, 1) people will fall away, and 2) only the one who endures to the end will be saved. Note the contrast he's making between 'falling away', and 'enduring to the end'.

But OSAS says believers can't fall away, and, according to your particular vein of OSAS, that you don't have to endure to the end to be saved, you'll just lose rewards. Neither point is supported in the passage.

Non-OSAS does not send believers to the lake of fire. It sends former believers to the lake of fire, along with those who never believed. If believers continue to believe they are the one's who endure and who will not go to the place of the weeping and gnashing of teeth but will be saved instead. This is a non-OSAS passage.

I'm not pretending this is an easy passage of scripture to understand (prophecy is like that). But it is clear what can NOT be true about OSAS in the passage. How do you fall away from something you do not have? And Jesus does plainly say you have to endure to the end to be saved (not just have rewards).

 

[Chopper]

We get out of Matt 24 and the trib and into our lives at this moment , I do not think that it is impossible for the elect to be deceived. I do not believe in your interpretation of elect and general called. Election is for believers only. It is what a believer is elected to that is predestined, Not the election of believing.All believers are the elect. Elected to a predetermined plan, not elected to believe.

But if we are deceived I see nowhere in scripture that we( the elect because we have believed) are put in the Lake of fire forever and ever.

I don't either. I'm simply pointing out that the people that Paul was speaking to in Hebrews, some of them, or as you say, all of them are elect. To answer your objections to my statement about that Scripture proves the possibility that the elect is warned in Hebrews, that they need to be faithful, with works until the end' Look at my #611 post....CASE CLOSED!

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

Its interesting to me also Chopper, All who are on this thread who believe in "loss of salvation" don't question this belief of 2 categories of believers? That is a new one, and I know that the adherents of "loss of salvation" do not believe this. But you get a pass because you are willing to succumb to their beliefs.

I have been a Christian for 3 1/2 weeks shy of 40 yrs and never heard of this destiny or allocation difference of believers. Oh, I have read/heard what Jethro discusses but haven't concerned myself because we can't know another Christian's eternal destiny; who the "elect" are with absolute certainty. Chopper, I apologize. I didn't know you were a "4 point Calvinist" what ever that is. But please do keep in mind that clinging to such an understanding or not won't affect a Christian's destiny with God or their brotherly relationship with you. [Edited by mod, Deb]. About 20 yrs ago a buddy in the Army who was also my superior, who also was the stand-in Chaplain for our unit tried to explain this VERY, VERY complicated, multi-layered and unbelievable idea of dispensationalism to me; a couple of times. I may be slow but God gave me a mind which could/can understand complexities. I decided that this idea was of man and not God. God/Jesus NEVER gives us such a monstrosity of complexity; NEVER. It is something which probably lapsed over from or was stemmed out of his Catholicism years. And I have seen over and over through the years when a Christian wants to silence other Christians about his ideas all he has to do is say God spoke to me or that is how I understand (the ambiguous and uncertain) prophecy. It is my position that if it can't be clearly be seen by the majority in God's Word then it was not meant for us to see/know it and that we are presuming ourselves to be God if we transgress into such speculations.

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

I just did a quick search of "dispensationalism." What I read there is nothing like what my buddy was relaying to me; but he labeled it with the word. He relayed it to me as some doctrine of the Bible which only the more mature or elite know. Must have been a denominationally decreed bag of tricks. What I understand it to be now is simply a man made system of categorizing the history of God's relationship with man in the Bible into seven time periods. Started by a man named Darby in the mid-1800's and esp promulgated by Schofield and Moody and associates. (see: http://www.theopedia.com/Dispensationalism)

I don't have the mind of God so I would not know how to categorize His Word other than as it presents itself to me. Although doing such may make it easier to study and discuss God's Word, it assumes certain purposes and intentions which are in the Author's head. To make such presumptions seems unwise to me. To me, any such categorization, esp hinged upon prophecy, could be amiss from what God REALLY is doing and all about.

 

[reba]

Sailingflutist-SF Dispensationalism is accepted system of understanding scripture... We need not agree but lets not be disrespectful of another's view.

Back to topic... SF you are very welcome to start a thread on dispensationalism.

 

[Sailingflutist-SF]

I did say "with all due respect", Reba. And this forum is set aside for discussing " topics related to defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines and theology" whcih I understand as "any accepted system of understanding" or doctrine is fair game. Am I mistaken?

 

[JLB]

I did say "with all due respect", Reba. And this forum is set aside for discussing " topics related to defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines and theology" whcih I understand as "any accepted system of understanding" or doctrine is fair game. Am I mistaken?

Reba does not care for Dispensationalism.

However, she is wanting to keep the peace with all who post here.

I believe she is referring to the language you used.

With all due respect to you or anyone else who believes in it, it sounds like some of that dispensations head-in-the-sky mambo jumbo which someone like a Gnostic or acid freak came up with.

Thanks Bro.

God Bless you.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Snide/snarky remarks implying that ones beliefs come from unbelievers, is truly disrespectful. Please refrain. You know the rules.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster.

 

[Rick W]

I posted this in the science forum but it seems it may apply to this thread as well.

7) Do not post opinions of another member's claim of Christian faith. (ToS 2.4)
Publicly judging someone as not being a Christian and/or not following Christ unless they themselves claim not be a Christian is disallowed. That's between them and the Lord. This includes judgments against collective beliefs or groups in general.

"This includes judgments against collective beliefs or groups in general."

There are evolutionists and there are creationists that uphold the the Christian faith on this board. The ToS addresses judgments from either side concerning the other. Derogatory, demeaning or otherwise insulting opinions toward either group is a direct affront and/or attack on the beliefs of those members who hold to those beliefs.

Debate is fine, no problem there, but posting belittling opinions toward either group is clearly a violation of the Terms of Service.
And yes, BOTH sides of the fence are guilty and I believe we've been letting it go too long. It would be appreciated if consideration was given to the membership of this site no matter what group they belong to.

 

[Chopper]

I have been a Christian for 3 1/2 weeks shy of 40 yrs and never heard of this destiny or allocation difference of believers. Oh, I have read/heard what Jethro discusses but haven't concerned myself because we can't know another Christian's eternal destiny; who the "elect" are with absolute certainty. Chopper, I apologize. I didn't know you were a "4 point Calvinist" what ever that is. But please do keep in mind that clinging to such an understanding or not won't affect a Christian's destiny with God or their brotherly relationship with you. With all due respect to you or anyone else who believes in it, it sounds like some of that dispensations head-in-the-sky mambo jumbo which someone like a Gnostic or acid freak came up with. About 20 yrs ago a buddy in the Army who was also my superior, who also was the stand-in Chaplain for our unit tried to explain this VERY, VERY complicated, multi-layered and unbelievable idea of dispensationalism to me; a couple of times. I may be slow but God gave me a mind which could/can understand complexities. I decided that this idea was of man and not God. God/Jesus NEVER gives us such a monstrosity of complexity; NEVER. It is something which probably lapsed over from or was stemmed out of his Catholicism years. And I have seen over and over through the years when a Christian wants to silence other Christians about his ideas all he has to do is say God spoke to me or that is how I understand (the ambiguous and uncertain) prophecy. It is my position that if it can't be clearly be seen by the majority in God's Word then it was not meant for us to see/know it and that we are presuming ourselves to be God if we transgress into such speculations.

Well Jim, you sure post what's on your mind, whether it insult's a brother or not. I am not a gnostic or an acid freak. My theory of the two groups of believers originated with me, is not dispensational or head-in-the-sky mumbo jumbo. It comes from me, after a very careful examination of the Scriptures as they relate to the proposition of John Calvin that the elect are the only ones that God has predestined to be saved, and for life, and all others He has committed to an eternity of suffering in the lake of fire. The following is Calvin's famous TULIP, or "five-point Calvinism"

Total depravity (no one is capable of saving oneself).
Unconditional election (God's choosing of the saved isn't conditioned by anything in them).
Limited atonement (Christ's atonement is adaquate to save all people but it is efficient for God's elect only).
Irresistible grace (the sovereignly given gift of faith cannot be rejected by the elect).
Perseverance of the saints (those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith).

This is called 5 point Calvinism. Because I reject Limited atonement, that makes me a 4 point Calvinist. It is this subject of limiting Salvation only to those of whom God chose to be saved before the foundations of the earth were laid, and not to the rest of mankind, that posed to me a big problem in that Calvin noted that God actually hardened the heart of Pharaoh, Judas, etc and therefore God rejects Salvation to all except the elect....Now there is a lot more that can be said about this subject, and I just gave a short synopsis.

I have posted a lot on this subject of my position on the elect and the general call of the Gospel. You can find them on posts # 252 - 345 - 362 - 403 - 405 - 434 - 436 - 448 - 449. There are more but this is most of them.