Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[chessman]

These three are One.

The three are God.

And for God's sake there's only one God, not three or four gods.

And for man's sake, the Word became flesh (the Son of Man) and dwelt among us (the Son of God and Son of man), died (the Lamb of God not the Father), rose (as the Firstfruits of the resurrection) and returned to be beside the Father (the Most High, not the only High but the Most High) as our High Priest of the New Covenant.

 

[JLB]

And for God's sake there's only one God, not three or four gods.

And for man's sake, the Word became flesh (the Son of Man) and dwelt among us (the Son of God and Son of man), died (the Lamb of God not the Father), rose (as the Firstfruits of the resurrection) and returned to be beside the Father (the Most High, not the only High but the Most High) as our High Priest of the New Covenant.

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but each person or member of the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are God.

The Son is God, as He is the only begotten of the Father.

God the Father, is only going to beget what He is: God

When the bible says: The three are one, it may mean more than we ourselves can conceive or understand when we read it.

• For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

A singular person does not refer to himself as Us, or Our.


Can we embrace that these three are one Family, or one Spirit, as well as one God?


JLB

 

[reba]

Closed for moderator review

 

[Mike]

I'm reopening this thread with a few warnings. Keep personal attacks out of your comments, don't flood the discussion with the same comments and rhetorical questions over and over, and try to treat what is generally accepted as a fundamental Christian doctrine with respect.

Thank you.

 

[chessman]

Not that I am disagreeing with you, but each person or member of the Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are God.

Yep. And the Son is the one who became flesh and dwelt (lived, breathed, ate, cried) among man and died and rose (not the Father or the Holy Spirit). And has promised to return.

And the Holy Spirit is the one that has indwelt us, sealed our salvation as a promise until the final redemption of Christ's possession (the Bride of Christ).

Ephesians 1:13-14 (DLNT) in Whom also you— having heard the word of truth, the good-news of your salvation, in which also having put-faith— you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is a pledge of our inheritance until the final redemption of His possession for the praise of His glory. ​

When the bible says: The three are one, it may mean more than we ourselves can conceive or understand when we read it.

Yes, there's some mystery that remains to Godliness. Yet there's some mystery that has been revealed about God that is not hard to conceive when we read about it in Scripture.

Can we embrace that these three are one Family, or one Spirit, as well as one God?

Sure. We brothers and sisters that embrace Godliness have done so and are the Son's Bride (family too).

We are born again by the Holy Spirit of God and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church. We are the Son's Bride and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ. We be family!

 

[JLB]

Yep. And the Son is the one who became flesh and dwelt (lived, breathed, ate, cried) among man and died and rose (not the Father or the Holy Spirit). And has promised to return.

And the Holy Spirit is the one that has indwelt us, sealed our salvation as a promise until the final redemption of Christ's possession (the Bride of Christ).

Ephesians 1:13-14 (DLNT) in Whom also you— having heard the word of truth, the good-news of your salvation, in which also having put-faith— you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Who is a pledge of our inheritance until the final redemption of His possession for the praise of His glory. ​

Yes, there's some mystery that remains to Godliness. Yet there's some mystery that has been revealed about God that is not hard to conceive when we read about it in Scripture.


Sure. We brothers and sisters that embrace Godliness have done so and are the Son's Bride (family too).

We are born again by the Holy Spirit of God and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church. We are the Son's Bride and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ. We be family!

We are the Son's Bride

And as we know, Husbands divorce wife's who are unfaithful.

• Concerning the mystery of godliness it is clear that some will depart from the faith, which is in Christ Jesus.

13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 3:3-4:1

• For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
• Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

However, concerning 1 John 5:7, and the topic of this thread which is about the "Trinity" or Godhead, we are not told what these three are, but rather that these three are one.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7


Are these three One:

• God?
• Spirit?
• Family?

JLB

 

[24HourJesus]

The trinity doctrine is a misunderstanding of the scriptures of course.
God is not one of the three persons in the trinity. God is the Holy Spirit. As scriptures tell us God is Holy, and God is a Spirit.
When God covered Mary in order to bring Himself into the world as Emmanuel, "God With Us", the human child that was born was born of the Father God. God materialized in flesh. God appeared as the son of a man to deliver his new covenant as God within that Son.

Trinity is the Roman ideation of polytheism, multiple god's. Something Constantine who oversaw the counsel of Nicea fathomed. NIcene Christianity is not Jesus. It's Pagan. Constantine did not convert to the faith in Christ until he was on his death bed. He was pagan throughout. He legalized Christianity because it was easier to permit it than to police its faithful. And, as he thought the cross sign in the sky before a major battle gave him that victory, as a Pagan all he did was add one more god to his pantheon of god's. That of the Christians.

Christianity, as we know, is the religion about Jesus. The religion of Jesus was Judaism. In Judaism as in the old testament, hear oh Israel our God, our God, is One!
Never is God referred to as three in any passage in the Bible. Trinity is pagan. Not of Christ.

 

[chessman]

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 3:3-4:1

When you have to make up your own translation of a passage to 'make' your point, you have no Biblical point.
Why did you place a period (end of sentence mark) mid-sentence of Paul's when the NKJV does not???

Are these three One:

• God?
• Spirit?
• Family?

None of the above. They (all three) are three witnesses, not three gods or three spirits or three families. Just as it says.

"For there are three that bear witness in heaven...

 

[JLB]

When you have to make up your own translation of a passage to 'make' your point, you have no Biblical point.
Why did you place a period (end of sentence mark) mid-sentence of Paul's when the NKJV does not???

All the claims of periods, and "midsentence's" will not change the context of faith in Christ Jesus being what Paul says some will depart from.


If you don't believe Paul is referring to departing from the faith in Christ Jesus, then please state why.

• Concerning the mystery of godliness it is clear that some will depart from the faith, which is in Christ Jesus.

13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 3:3-4:1

• For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
• Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

JLB

 

[JLB]

None of the above. They (all three) are three witnesses, not three gods or three spirits or three families. Just as it says.

"For there are three that bear witness in heaven...

That was not the question, please don't make up your own question then apply it to my question, as if that was what I asked.

Very deceitful.


However, concerning 1 John 5:7, and the topic of this thread which is about the "Trinity" or Godhead, we are not told what these three are, but rather that these three are one.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7


Are these three One:

• God?
• Spirit?
• Family?

These three bear witness and are One.


JLB

 

[Free]

That was not the question, please don't make up your own question then apply it to my question, as if that was what I asked.

Very deceitful.


However, concerning 1 John 5:7, and the topic of this thread which is about the "Trinity" or Godhead, we are not told what these three are, but rather that these three are one.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7


Are these three One:

• God?
• Spirit?
• Family?

These three bear witness and are One.


JLB

First, I addressed your use of 1 John 5:7 on the first page and you never responded to what I actually wrote. Second, look up at post #144. A moderator specifically said to stop repeating the same things over and over.

 

[chessman]

And as we know, Husbands divorce wife's who are unfaithful.

Yes hard hearted earthly husbands are permitted to divorce but it was not that way from the beginning. Are you of the opinion that Christ hard hearted toward His bride so as to reject His bride?

Romans 11:2 God has not rejected his people, whom he foreknew! Or do you not know, in the passage about Elijah, what the scripture says—how he appeals to God against Israel?​

If you don't believe Paul is referring to departing from the faith in Christ Jesus, then please state why.

1. Because he did not say some will depart from the faith in Christ Jesus.

2. Because of what he did say:

Not

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

But rather

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of liars, who are seared in their own conscience, who forbid marrying and insist on abstaining from foods that God created for sharing in with thankfulness by those who believe and who know the truth, because everything created by God is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thankfulness, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.​

 

[Free]

The trinity doctrine is a misunderstanding of the scriptures of course.
God is not one of the three persons in the trinity.

If that is what you think the doctrine of the Trinity teaches, you are quite incorrect.

God is the Holy Spirit. As scriptures tell us God is Holy, and God is a Spirit.

God is Holy, yes. And God is spirit. However, God is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, just as the Father is God and the Son is God.

When God covered Mary in order to bring Himself into the world as Emmanuel, "God With Us", the human child that was born was born of the Father God. God materialized in flesh. God appeared as the son of a man to deliver his new covenant as God within that Son.

God the Son, the Son of God, became Jesus, both truly human and truly God, which is the only reason why his sacrifice is efficacious and he can intercede between man and God.

Trinity is the Roman ideation of polytheism, multiple god's. Something Constantine who oversaw the counsel of Nicea fathomed. NIcene Christianity is not Jesus. It's Pagan. Constantine did not convert to the faith in Christ until he was on his death bed. He was pagan throughout. He legalized Christianity because it was easier to permit it than to police its faithful. And, as he thought the cross sign in the sky before a major battle gave him that victory, as a Pagan all he did was add one more god to his pantheon of god's. That of the Christians.

Christianity, as we know, is the religion about Jesus. The religion of Jesus was Judaism. In Judaism as in the old testament, hear oh Israel our God, our God, is One!
Never is God referred to as three in any passage in the Bible. Trinity is pagan. Not of Christ.

The Trinity is most certainly not polytheistic nor is it pagan. One of the basic foundations of the Trinity is monotheism.

 

[24HourJesus]

If that is what you think the doctrine of the Trinity teaches, you are quite incorrect.

No, I'm not.

God is Holy, yes. And God is spirit. However, God is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, just as the Father is God and the Son is God.

If that's what you believe you are quite incorrect.
That's the trouble with Trinity teaching. "God" is some other. Then there's that other other, the Holy Spirit, and then there's Jesus.

God the Son, the Son of God, became Jesus, both truly human and truly God, which is the only reason why his sacrifice is efficacious and he can intercede between man and God.

Jesus was God. He was born of woman but her ovaries did not help bring him to life. The Holy Spirit did it all. That's why the angel told her to call him by the name that would inform every Jew who He was from first introduction. "God with us".

The Trinity is most certainly not polytheistic nor is it pagan. One of the basic foundations of the Trinity is monotheism.

Jesus affirmed the doctrine of monotheism of the old testament in Mark 12:28-34.
What he never did was teach the trinity.

 

[chessman]

Are these three One:

• God?
• Spirit?
• Family?

Asked and answered already. None of the above. They are One witness. And they testify the Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And the truth is, everyone who is fathered by God conquers the world, not some but every one:

1 John 5:5-8 Now who is the one who conquers the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ, not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify, the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.
​

Testifying that some who are fathered by God do not conquer the world is not God's testimony.

 

[Free]

No, I'm not.

Do you believe that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches "God is one of the three persons in the trinity"?

If that's what you believe you are quite incorrect.
That's the trouble with Trinity teaching. "God" is some other. Then there's that other other, the Holy Spirit, and then there's Jesus.

It is exactly what the Bible quite clearly teaches: the Father is truly God, the Son is truly God, the Holy Spirit is truly God, yet they are all distinct from one another.

Jesus was God. He was born of woman but her ovaries did not help bring him to life. The Holy Spirit did it all. That's why the angel told her to call him by the name that would inform every Jew who He was from first introduction. "God with us".

Jesus was truly human and truly God. It is heresy to suggest that Jesus was God only.

Great picture. This affirms everything I have said.

Jesus affirmed the doctrine of monotheism of the old testament in Mark 12:28-34.
What he never did was teach the trinity.

Of course Jesus would affirm monotheism. That is one of the foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity, just as the picture you provided shows.

Jesus never specifically taught the Trinity as a full doctrine but he taught that he was God, he taught that the Father was God, he taught that the Holy Spirit was the same as him, yet not him.

 

[24HourJesus]

Do you believe that the doctrine of the Trinity teaches "God is one of the three persons in the trinity"?


It is exactly what the Bible quite clearly teaches: the Father is truly God, the Son is truly God, the Holy Spirit is truly God, yet they are all distinct from one another.


Jesus was truly human and truly God. It is heresy to suggest that Jesus was God only.




Great picture. This affirms everything I have said.


Of course Jesus would affirm monotheism. That is one of the foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity, just as the picture you provided shows.

Jesus never specifically taught the Trinity as a full doctrine but he taught that he was God, he taught that the Father was God, he taught that the Holy Spirit was the same as him, yet not him.

Never fails. False teachings will be bushed up with the claim of heresy against the person challenging the falsity.

Believe what you want.

 

[Free]

Never fails. False teachings will be bushed up with the claim of heresy against the person challenging the falsity.

Believe what you want.

That's it? No actual response?

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures,
3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh
4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, (ESV)

Notice that Paul says that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh." That means Jesus was truly human. That he was also "declared to be the Son of God" shows that he is also truly God.


Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (ESV)

Shows that the eternally pre-existent Word--the Son--became flesh, that is, became human.


Phi 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (ESV)

Can only be understood as God the Son becoming human.


Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (ESV)

Again, this clearly shows that Jesus was truly human.


1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (ESV)

Pretty self-explanatory.


You seem to be promoting Docetism, or in the least a form of it, which was condemned as heresy long ago.

 

[Jim Parker]

Trinity is the Roman ideation of polytheism, multiple god's. Something Constantine who oversaw the counsel of Nicea fathomed.

That is totally wrong.
Constantine's only input to the council of Nicaea was that they meet and decide what was correct.
The Arian heresy was, in fact, neo-platonist, Gnostic, heresy.
Authentic Christianity is Trinitarian.
Everything else is not authentic Christianity; it is heresy.

When God covered Mary in order to bring Himself into the world as Emmanuel, "God With Us", the human child that was born was born of the Father God. God materialized in flesh. God appeared as the son of a man to deliver his new covenant as God within that Son.

Your comment does not make sense.

According to your statement, when Jesus said at John 14:16-17 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you." it means that Jesus would pray to himself and ask himself to send himself.

That's babbling nonsense.

That's what "oneness" requires people believe.

 

[jaybird]

The trinity doctrine is a misunderstanding of the scriptures of course.
God is not one of the three persons in the trinity. God is the Holy Spirit. As scriptures tell us God is Holy, and God is a Spirit.
When God covered Mary in order to bring Himself into the world as Emmanuel, "God With Us", the human child that was born was born of the Father God. God materialized in flesh. God appeared as the son of a man to deliver his new covenant as God within that Son.

Trinity is the Roman ideation of polytheism, multiple god's. Something Constantine who oversaw the counsel of Nicea fathomed. NIcene Christianity is not Jesus. It's Pagan. Constantine did not convert to the faith in Christ until he was on his death bed. He was pagan throughout. He legalized Christianity because it was easier to permit it than to police its faithful. And, as he thought the cross sign in the sky before a major battle gave him that victory, as a Pagan all he did was add one more god to his pantheon of god's. That of the Christians.

Christianity, as we know, is the religion about Jesus. The religion of Jesus was Judaism. In Judaism as in the old testament, hear oh Israel our God, our God, is One!
Never is God referred to as three in any passage in the Bible. Trinity is pagan. Not of Christ.

i agree, and also will add, a lot of people dont realize that rome didnt want to be Christian, their first option was to destroy it, kill every believer they could and burn down all their temples. they failed to destroy it and it was only then they joined, but IMO they only joined under their own roman terms. rome was a prideful empire with prideful people, they never surrendered to anyone.