Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[billybalke]

Is there any other type of Christian?


Do you think one can believe whatever they want about Jesus, about who he is, and expect to be saved? He is the central figure of the entire Scriptures, the one through whom alone we can find salvation.

I posted in another thread a handful of passages--John 1:12, John 3:18, Rom. 10:9-13, 1 Cor. 15, and Gal. 1:6-9--which show that we must believe what the Bible says about who Jesus is in order to be saved.


Docetism is a Christological heresy; it doesn't matter whether or not one is trinitarian. Tritheism is a Christian heresy in the same sense--one need not be a trinitarian to see that it goes completely against the Bible's clear teaching of monotheism.

The Holy Spirit IS Deity!

If I were discussing this matter my argument (among other things) would be that the Holy Spirit is Deity by comparison of scripture. For example take the case of Ananias and his wife Sapphira in Acts 5. Acts 5:4 reads that they lied "unto God". Acts 5:3 reads they lied "to the Holy Spirit."' Therefore the Holy Spirit is also God.

God bless, Billy

 

[billybalke]

The Holy Spirit IS Deity!

If I were discussing this matter my argument (among other things) would be that the Holy Spirit is Deity by comparison of scripture. For example take the case of Ananias and his wife Sapphira in Acts 5. Acts 5:4 reads that they lied "unto God". Acts 5:3 reads they lied "to the Holy Spirit."' Therefore the Holy Spirit is also God.

God bless, Billy

BTW, the same may be done proving Jesus is also God. --- Billy

 

[Jim Parker]

rome was a prideful empire with prideful people, they never surrendered to anyone.

Rome was sacked multiple times by barbarians.

 

[Papa Zoom]

if this was true then there should be many scriptures referring to the Most High as "they" and "they are one" and none exist.

Let US make man in OUR image.

 

[jaybird]

Rome was sacked multiple times by barbarians.

they may have looted many cities, and after those lootings were complete the cities continued to be roman. no government ever changed hands, all land stayed in the empire.
roman cities were besieged many times and every time rome would rather let every citizen in the city die before ever accepting terms.

 

[new covenant preacher]

Mat 23:34 - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them
from city to city:

Please, someone, explain this verse? Christ declared that He sent the prophets to these murderers.
Did the father not send the Old Testament prophets? Is Jesus somewhat confused here?

 

[billybalke]

Mat 23:34 - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them
from city to city:

Please, someone, explain this verse? Christ declared that He sent the prophets to these murderers.
Did the father not send the Old Testament prophets? Is Jesus somewhat confused here?

Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. Jesus was never confused.

 

[Jim Parker]

roman cities were besieged many times and every time rome would rather let every citizen in the city die before ever accepting terms.

Rome itself was sieged, breached, and sacked on several occasions.

In July, 387 B.C., Gallic Celts led by the warlord Brennus defeated the Romansand then entered Rome, plundered, raped, and murdered to their hearts content. They were bought off by paying 1000 pounds of gold.

On August 24, A.D. 410, barbarian tribesmen under the Visigoth King Alaric entered the city of Rome and launched into a three-day frenzy of murder and plunder.

The Vandals, under their king Genseric invaded Italy and marched on Rome in 455. Pope Leo persuaded them not to burn the city or kill the inhabitants. They were allowed to enter the city unopposed and to loot everything of value.

The Ostrogoths, under their king Totila, gained access to the city in 546 by scaling its walls under cover of darkness and opening the Asinarian Gate. Rome’s small garrison immediately fled in terror, leaving it defenseless and open to plunder. The Ostrogoths spent several highly profitable weeks sacking the city, but despite having previously vowed to turn Rome into a sheep pasture, Totila avoided demolishing it when he departed in early 547.

SOurce: http://www.history.com/news/6-infamous-sacks-of-rome

 

[Free]

Mat 23:34 - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them
from city to city:

Please, someone, explain this verse? Christ declared that He sent the prophets to these murderers.
Did the father not send the Old Testament prophets? Is Jesus somewhat confused here?

Jesus said he was going to send, that is, he was about to send out the prophets, meaning the apostles and perhaps other disciples. I don't think the OT makes any specific claim as to which of the Trinity does the sending, so it is most likely all three, as one, that do the sending.

The Father sent the Son and the Son sent his disciples, as did the Holy Spirit:

Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
Act 13:3 Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.
Act 13:4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. (ESV)

Jesus is never confused.

 

[new covenant preacher]

Jesus is never confused.[/QUOTE] Another member said the following in red
Jesus has never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13.

Think about what you are suggesting here. If Jesus is God, which most Christians affirm and He sits at the right hand of God.
THEN THERE ARE TWO GODS PERIOD!

Or we can look at the true intended meaning of the right hand of God without the words changed to support this strange new doctrine.
The right hand of God is in reference to the glorious power of the creator of Heaven and earth. Our saving grace by means of Christ’s mighty and miraculous works, as well as His righteous wrath on the ungodly, are attributes of the right hand of God.

Ex 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

The right hand of God is a metaphor describing the incredible and majestic power of God.

Psa 48:10 According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.

The right hand of God is symbolic of the righteousness of the Lord that strengthens us, and holds us up (Isa 41:10).

Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

The right hand of God is a figure of speech from the Creator who spoke the world into existence (Gen 1:3-27).

Yahshua, our Messiah said “you shall see the Son of man sitting gloriously as the right hand of power”. The right hand of God will also come again in the clouds of heaven (Mark 14:61-62).

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

The words sat on, in the verse above are translated incorrectly. In cannot be said, that our Lord sat on the right hand of God; this is to suggest that we are talking about two separate Gods.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

When Isaiah says prepare the way of the Lord (Yahweh), a highway for God (Elohim), he is not speaking of two God’s.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

John in the desert is speaking of this same Lord that Isaiah is referring to.

 

[Free]

Jesus is never confused.

Another member said the following in red
Jesus has never returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13.

Think about what you are suggesting here. If Jesus is God, which most Christians affirm and He sits at the right hand of God.
THEN THERE ARE TWO GODS PERIOD!

Or we can look at the true intended meaning of the right hand of God without the words changed to support this strange new doctrine.
The right hand of God is in reference to the glorious power of the creator of Heaven and earth. Our saving grace by means of Christ’s mighty and miraculous works, as well as His righteous wrath on the ungodly, are attributes of the right hand of God.

Ex 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

The right hand of God is a metaphor describing the incredible and majestic power of God.

Psa 48:10 According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.

The right hand of God is symbolic of the righteousness of the Lord that strengthens us, and holds us up (Isa 41:10).

Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

The right hand of God is a figure of speech from the Creator who spoke the world into existence (Gen 1:3-27).

Yahshua, our Messiah said “you shall see the Son of man sitting gloriously as the right hand of power”. The right hand of God will also come again in the clouds of heaven (Mark 14:61-62).

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

The words sat on, in the verse above are translated incorrectly. In cannot be said, that our Lord sat on the right hand of God; this is to suggest that we are talking about two separate Gods.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

When Isaiah says prepare the way of the Lord (Yahweh), a highway for God (Elohim), he is not speaking of two God’s.

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

John in the desert is speaking of this same Lord that Isaiah is referring to.

You're arguing with the wind. I know what the "right hand of power" means and it does nothing to the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus is truly God and the Father is truly God and the Holy Spirit is truly God, but there is only one being that is God. That is what Scripture tells us, hence the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Jim Parker]

If Jesus is God, which most Christians affirm and He sits at the right hand of God.
THEN THERE ARE TWO GODS PERIOD!

This was all dealt with at length and resolved 1700 years ago.
The Father is God.
The Son is God The Holy Spirit is God.
The three are the one God.

Three persons (hypostases) One God.
If it doesn't make sense to you, don't worry about it. We don't get to figure out God.

John 14:16 "I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,"
or is it, "I will pray to myself, and I will give you another myself to be with you for ever,"?

 

[jaybird]

Rome itself was sieged, breached, and sacked on several occasions.

yes rome was sieged, sacked many times, nobody said different. i never said they never lost a battle. Hannibal mopped the floor with them from Africa to Spain and all the way to rome. but rome didnt surrender one piece of land to Cathage and thats what you dont seem to get. im sure their may be a few exceptions but the point was that rome had a history of fighting to the last man and starving their own people before they ever gave in to surrender.

 

[jaybird]

Think about what you are suggesting here. If Jesus is God, which most Christians affirm and He sits at the right hand of God.
THEN THERE ARE TWO GODS PERIOD!

i never got that either, i guess they think Jesus sits at the right hand of Himself??

 

[Free]

i never got that either, i guess they think Jesus sits at the right hand of Himself??

If that's what you think, then you really don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity. The irony here is that your comment applies to NCP's position, not the trinitarian one.

 

[new covenant preacher]

Mat 23:34 - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them
from city to city:

Here we have a very powerful verse wherein Jesus Claims to be the Father.
He sent the prophets to their fathers that were slaughtered for simply sharing the truth
and they did the same to him also. Even though the Old Testament is incomplete without Him?

1 Kings 18:13 Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the LORD, how I hid an hundred men of the LORD'S prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water?

prophets of the LORD'S h3068 יְהֹוָה Yĕhovah

Lets piece this puzzle together now shall we?

Jesus states that He sent the prophets, Well He is God so that is a true statement, He said "Before Abraham was I AM"
1 Kings says these prophets are of the Lord or Yĕhovah or Yahweh who is also God the Father
Jesus also told us, "I and the Father are One"

If Jesus said I send the prophets, and the Father send them also, then we have a case for this two person clause, but that is not the case!

 

[Mike]

This discussion is not about eternal security or the defense of the Roman empire. Please remain on topic.

Thank you.

 

[Free]

Mat 23:34 - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them
from city to city:

Here we have a very powerful verse wherein Jesus Claims to be the Father.
He sent the prophets to their fathers that were slaughtered for simply sharing the truth
and they did the same to him also. Even though the Old Testament is incomplete without Him?

1 Kings 18:13 Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the LORD, how I hid an hundred men of the LORD'S prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water?

prophets of the LORD'S h3068 יְהֹוָה Yĕhovah

Lets piece this puzzle together now shall we?

Jesus states that He sent the prophets, Well He is God so that is a true statement, He said "Before Abraham was I AM"
1 Kings says these prophets are of the Lord or Yĕhovah or Yahweh who is also God the Father
Jesus also told us, "I and the Father are One"

If Jesus said I send the prophets, and the Father send them also, then we have a case for this two person clause, but that is not the case!

I have addressed this previously. Not that it really matters but Jesus did not state that he sent the prophets but that he was about to send them, meaning the apostles and perhaps all his disciples.

The main problems are 1) that you are presuming that YHWH is the Father only, yet you have not proven so, and 2) that when Jesus says he and the father are one, that means they are one and the same, despite that statement having more than one way to be understood in the English.

So we look to the Greek and we then find that "one" is neuter, which means Jesus is not saying he and the Father are one person, but that they are one in essence, in nature, in attributes.

The NT continually keeps the Father and Son disctinct. Even the use of "Father" and "Son" is so that we know they are of the same nature yet are not the same person. A son is like his father but it is utter nonsense to claim that a son is his own father or a father his own son. That would make the use of Father and Son meaningless to us.

There is not a single place in Scripture where Jesus claims to be the Father and that is because he isn't. He cannot be the Father unless we are willing to throw out all rules of grammar and logic.

 

[jaybird]

If that's what you think, then you really don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity. The irony here is that your comment applies to NCP's position, not the trinitarian one.

i know thast one person sitting at the right hand of another is two people. the apostles wanted to sit at the right hand of Jesus yet we have no confusion thinking the 12 are all Jesus.

 

[Free]

i know thast one person sitting at the right hand of another is two people. the apostles wanted to sit at the right hand of Jesus yet we have no confusion thinking the 12 are all Jesus.

Sure but my point was that what you are saying doesn't go against the trinitarian position but the Sabellianism one being put forward by NCP.