Does man have the free will choice to choose God?

[Dave Slayer]

Does man have the free will choice to choose God? What is Biblical?

 

[jasoncran]

yes, God present himselve to us and we choose then yay or nay.

jason

 

[Benoni]

If this is true then how about some type of Bible verse to back your claim?

yes, God present himselve to us and we choose then yay or nay.

jason

 

[jasoncran]

If this is true then how about some type of Bible verse to back your claim?

yes, God present himselve to us and we choose then yay or nay.

jason

yes, when you herethe word of god as in Romans 10 or any other means, if the person is led of the Lord to say what is needed then the Lord is speaking to you. Think about is not the word of God a means of which God reveals himself. I redidacated my life to the Lord after a confrotation from a brother Christ, he asked if i was saved and I felt a hand was pointing to my heart and in my spirit I felt the need to repent. If we dont have that choice how can we reconcile this verse Lets whomesever will come come( note the will part, a decsion is made to do it) or Whomsover comes to me in no wise will i cast away, Yes God draws us to Jesus and we must then decide to listen at the calling to repentance.

jason

 

[Benoni]

The problem with your assessment is the word means to drag, how do you choose something if you are being dragged.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If this is true then how about some type of Bible verse to back your claim?

yes, God present himselve to us and we choose then yay or nay.

jason

yes, when you herethe word of god as in Romans 10 or any other means, if the person is led of the Lord to say what is needed then the Lord is speaking to you. Think about is not the word of God a means of which God reveals himself. I redidacated my life to the Lord after a confrotation from a brother Christ, he asked if i was saved and I felt a hand was pointing to my heart and in my spirit I felt the need to repent. If we dont have that choice how can we reconcile this verse Lets whomesever will come come( note the will part, a decsion is made to do it) or Whomsover comes to me in no wise will i cast away, Yes God draws us to Jesus and we must then decide to listen at the calling to repentance.

jason

 

[jasoncran]

The problem with your assessment is the word means to drag, how do you choose something if you are being dragged.

jason

[/quote]
yes, when you herethe word of god as in Romans 10 or any other means, if the person is led of the Lord to say what is needed then the Lord is speaking to you. Think about is not the word of God a means of which God reveals himself. I redidacated my life to the Lord after a confrotation from a brother Christ, he asked if i was saved and I felt a hand was pointing to my heart and in my spirit I felt the need to repent. If we dont have that choice how can we reconcile this verse Lets whomesever will come come( note the will part, a decsion is made to do it) or Whomsover comes to me in no wise will i cast away, Yes God draws us to Jesus and we must then decide to listen at the calling to repentance.

jason[/quote][/quote] So you believe in calvinism then, if were drug to the cross he's that not free will, and i dont see it that way , is that the only translation of the greek word drag,as draw in enlglish means to pull out and aslo in draw a sword for a battle. God can drag us by using a bait then we
still have to bite it. Like fishing i guess perhaps that the context as jesus did alude to fisherman alot.

 

[follower of Christ]

Does man have the free will choice to choose God? What is Biblical?

No offense to you DS, but this crap has to stop.
The mods have locked down a thread or two on this topic and we've had 3 or 4 here in the last two weeks.
I dont want to believe that you are just trying to keep this instigated or anything, but what else am I supposed to think ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Romans 8:20 - A judgment on sinful man
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that this subjection of futility is an EFFECT, not a CAUSE, of mans condition and choice to sin.

Supporting Evidence

Romans 8:20 is one of those passages that there is a lot of disagreement upon by those who ARE scholars of scripture and of Greek.
It is absolutely not a good idea to found a whole doctrine upon in order to put the blame of OUR choice to sin on God.

I spent some time looking at it again and the disagreement of scholars is amazing...if men who DO know Greek and spend their whole lives studying Gods word cannot agree on what this tiny verse means exactly (there seems to be some disagreement on how the greek is to even be rendered into english exactly), then its is VERY dangerous to ignore verses like this one;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

..that CLEARLY says that GOD is not responsible for OUR sin.

To run to a verse that may not even actually SAY what one wants it to say and then reject something that has NO other intent to but to purposefully convey ONE intent that GOD ISNT making us sin, is fairly dangerous, in my opinion.

As far as I have seen and understood it Romans 8:20 is a SENTENCE upon man...entirely against mans will he was subjected to this sentence that came about because of his DECISION to sin against God.

When man sinned against God did man, of his OWN WILL, WANT to be subjected to this 'futility' ?
That would make us insane as well as sinners.
There is NOTHING in Romans 8:20 that nullifies James 1:13-15, Im afraid. And it is a foolhardy venture to try to make that the case.

Romans 8:20 DOESNT say God makes men sin and is fairly uncertain as to its EXACT intent....James 1:13-15 CLEARLY presents that God does NOT do so.


Here are some words of men who know the greek language, since I dont (and I doubt others here do either).

Rom 8:20
Was subjected (hupetagē). Second aorist passive indicative of hupatassŠ(cf. Rom_8:7).
To vanity (tēi mataiotēti). Dative case. Rare and late word, common in lxx. From mataios, empty, vain. Eph_4:17; 2Pe_2:18.
Not of its own will (ouch hekousa). Common adjective, in N.T. only here and 1Co_9:27. It was due to the effect of man’s sin.
But by reason of him (alla dia ton). Because of God.
In hope that (Ephesians' helpidi hoti). Note the form helpidi rather than the usual elpidi and so Ephesians'. Hoti can be causal “because†instead of declarative “that.â€Â\
Vincent WORD studies

2.0
Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

Here we see very plainly that God cursed the ground BECAUSE of Adams sin...

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
(Genesis 3:17 KJV)

BECAUSE Adam CHOSE to eat of that tree, he and his wife, the ground was cursed....creation was subjected to futility that Romans 8:20 speaks of.
.

 

[follower of Christ]

The 'free will' offering was mentioned a time or two in scripture, so I got to looking to see if this word was presented in any context other than an offering

H5071
נדב×â€
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5068
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1299a

Oddly there are verses that contain it that show it relating to God....and some also to MAN outside of offerings..

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:3 KJV)

"People shall be WILLING".
Same root word "nedâbâh" that is used for free will offerings in many other verses.
Apparently even OUTSIDE of offerings the word IS USED concerning man.
And what is interesting in the passage above is how the word is used and what the verse says.

A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:1-3 KJV)

Just as PAUL shows in Romans 6, we willingly SUBMIT ourselves....
His people WILLINGLY subject themselves to His rule. They dont have to be forced as some falsely preach here.

The word is also used here in reference to GOD whom we KNOW has free will....

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
(Hosea 14:4 KJV)

In the SAME manner that GOD FREELY loves them MAN can FREELY be willing to subject himself to Gods rule...

 

[follower of Christ]

Mans choice to sin

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it? Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified,so that we no longer serve sin. For the one that died has been justified from sin.

But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God. So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts.
Neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as one living from the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God. For your sin shall not lord it over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?

But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
And having been set free from sin, you were enslaved to righteousness.
I speak as a man on account of the weakness of your flesh. For as you presented your members as slaves to uncleanness and to lawless act unto lawless act, so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free as to righteousness.

Therefore what fruit did you have then in the things over which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 6:1-23 LITV)

 

[follower of Christ]

Mans limited free will
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that it is impossible that God forcibly 'controls' the actions of all men and women.

Supporting Evidence.
Here we see Jesus telling Peter that he would deny Him three times before the next morning came.

Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
(Mat 26:34 KJV)

G720
á¼€ÃÂνέομαι
arneomai
ar-neh'-om-ahee
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the middle of G4483; to contradict, that is, disavow, reject, abnegate: - deny, refuse.

Now, some false doctrines teach that God 'controls' mans actions and that man has no free will of himself.
One internet source I recent came across said this

Forum poster: "And here is an example of God's will:
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

So in this persons mind GOD is the source of Peters denying Christ. Rather than simply understanding that God foreknew it would happen, this person and their doctrine basically say that Peter did it for lack of choice in the matter. Meaning that GOD had to be the one causing Peter to deny Christ, ie God 'denied' Himself THROUGH the man Peter.
Im certain few will agree to the obvious conclusion, that their doctrinal view states that, but the conclusion is clear enough.

But we see that scripture says that He CANNOT deny Himself.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
(2Ti 2:12-13 KJV)


G533
ἀÀαÃÂνέομαι
aparneomai
ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee
From G575 and G720; to deny utterly, that is, disown, abstain: - deny.

Notice that 'deny' in the second verse is from G720, the word used in the first verse cited, so these words are very much related in intent. They arent two entirely different concepts.

Christ is faithful. GOD is faithful. He CANNOT deny Himself....yet *IF* these false doctrines were true then we have a situation where GOD is directly 'denying' Himself THROUGH Peter *IF* GOD is controlling Peter in any way. This simply cannot be the case given that God CANNOT deny Himself.

God CANNOT go against His own nature and He cannot lie.

in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time itself,
(Tit 1:2 EMTV)

So it is against His nature to deny Himself, therefore He was not causing Peter to deny Him. He simply foreknew that it would occur.


2.0

The 'free will' offering was mentioned a time or two in scripture, so I got to looking to see if this word was presented in any context other than an offering

H5071
נדב×â€
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5068
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1299a

Oddly there are verses that contain it that show it relating to God....and some also to MAN outside of offerings..

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:3 KJV)

"People shall be WILLING".
Same root word "nedâbâh" that is used for free will offerings in many other verses.
Apparently even OUTSIDE of offerings the word IS USED concerning man.
And what is interesting in the passage above is how the word is used and what the verse says.

A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:1-3 KJV)

Just as PAUL shows in Romans 6, we willingly SUBMIT ourselves....
His people WILLINGLY subject themselves to His rule. They dont have to be forced as some falsely preach here.

The word is also used here in reference to GOD whom we KNOW has free will....

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
(Hosea 14:4 KJV)

In the SAME manner that GOD FREELY loves them MAN can FREELY be willing to subject himself to Gods rule...



Mans 'conscience' and knowing good and evil
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that man does have a conscience that can be in line with Gods law and can understand that, even when unregenerate, he has committed wrong/evil and/or good.

Supporting Evidence
Romans here shows both 'by nature' and 'their conscience'.
MY assertion is that this passage speaks about the MANS nature and the MANS conscience.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
(Romans 2:14-15 KJV)

The word 'conscience' there is this;

G4893
ÃÆ’Ã…νείδηÃιÂ
suneidēsis
soon-i'-day-sis
From a prolonged form of G4894; co-perception, that is, moral consciousness: - conscience.

Lets compare the word "conscience' to other passages where it is used and see if it ever applies TO the unsaved.
This passage is where the UNsaved pharisees have just tried to trick Jesus.

They said this, tempting Him so that they might have reason to accuse Him. But bending down, Jesus wrote on the ground with His finger, not appearing to hear. But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her. And again bending down, He wrote on the ground. And hearing, and being convicted by conscience, they went out one by one, beginning at the oldest, until the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
(John 8:6-9 MKJV)

Same word as in Romans above...
These UNSAVED men, as far from God as they were...as WE know the Pharisees were... KNEW they were not guiltless of sin and wrongdoing, thus their own conscience caused them to drop their stones and leave.

Point is that EVEN the godless Pharisees could be convicted by their own conscience to KNOW that they had done wrong.
Just as with the Romans passage...men can KNOW, saved or not, that they have done evil.
The unsaved are simply yet to be reconciled to God and filled with the Spirit so they can be forgiven for sins.
They are ruled by their spiritless minds, but like the Pharisees above, ARE capable of knowing when they have done good or evil.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

The problem with your assessment is the word means to drag, how do you choose something if you are being dragged.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And again, as we covered in a dozen other threads, possibly started by mr Slayer...who knows...your verse there ISNT the entire scope of evidence in the matter.
The REST of scripture shows conclusively that man CAN reject salvation...




DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

 

[follower of Christ]

The problem with your assessment is the word means to drag, how do you choose something if you are being dragged.

And the problem with YOUR assessment is that you continually do what MOST false teachers do...you hide behind one word in one verse that youve twisted beyond recognition that DOESNT agree with the REST of scripture in the matter.

See my last post to you above....

 

[jasoncran]

follower of christ thank you as i wasnt able to do that, but i didn't fall for that one either, i seem to rember you discussing that thought on is god responsible for our sin earlier. jason

 

[follower of Christ]

follower of christ thank you as i wasnt able to do that, but i didn't fall for that one either, i seem to rember you discussing that thought on is god responsible for our sin earlier. jason

Yeah I figured since DaveS isnt going to let this dead horse die a quiet death that I may as well post ALL of the material that was in the other threads now and get it over with.

Moderation really needs to do something about these one liner, hit and run threads where the OP doesnt actually intend on partaking of the discussion but seemingly is just trying to run up his post count or something.

 

[Benoni]

This is funny, I have debated you more then any person on this forum and if anyone is laying down falsehood it would be you. You claim hide behind one word or one verse; but when I ask you to do the same you show me nothing but assumptions and spin; never God’s Word.

How about showing me one verse that declares man has a freewill toward salvation so you can prove you’re not a liar and false prophet? Instead of spinning God’s Word because you do not like what it says

The problem with your assessment is the word means to drag, how do you choose something if you are being dragged.

And the problem with YOUR assessment is that you continually do what MOST false teachers do...you hide behind one word in one verse that youve twisted beyond recognition that DOESNT agree with the REST of scripture in the matter.

See my last post to you above....

 

[Rick W]

Ok fellas. Address the topic and not each other please.

 

[follower of Christ]

This is funny, I have debated you more then any person on this forum

please...dont bother stroking your ego here, friend. Many more here have presented far more arguments with far more substance than you in the time that Ive been a member of this forum.
Your posts have been a minor annoyance, nothing more.

and if anyone is laying down falsehood it would be you.

You have yet to support the assertion with anything beyond your distortions of scripture.

You claim I lay one word or one verse; but when I ask you to do the same you show me nothing but assumptions and spin; never God’s Word.

READERS...look one page back at my numerous posts and you should get a chuckle by benoni's ridiculous claim here.
Ive given a lot of scripture over and again with this gent but apparently he has selective vision.

How about showing me one verse that declares man has a freewill toward salvation so you can prove you’re not a liar and false prophet?

How about learning how to actually study Gods word instead of being a false one who plays games of demanding that something is worded in the way he insists it be worded.

As i said you have a terrible double standard. Nothing you ever present actually SAYS what you claim it does, yet you have the audacity to put a burden of proof on us that you exempt yourself from...I find that laughable, but typical, quite honestly.

Instead of spinning God’s Word because you do not like what it says

Present something that actually SAYS what you claim it does, then we'll talk....

 

[Benoni]

Like the moderator say "Ok fellas. Address the topic and not each other please".

Don't talk about the scriptures you never give post them.

This is funny, I have debated you more then any person on this forum

please...dont bother stroking your ego here, friend. Many more here have presented far more arguments with far more substance than you in the time that Ive been a member of this forum.
Your posts have been a minor annoyance, nothing more.

and if anyone is laying down falsehood it would be you.

You have yet to support the assertion with anything beyond your distortions of scripture.

[quote:k4v8l0ev]You claim I lay one word or one verse; but when I ask you to do the same you show me nothing but assumptions and spin; never God’s Word.

READERS...look one page back at my numerous posts and you should get a chuckle by benoni's ridiculous claim here.
Ive given a lot of scripture over and again with this gent but apparently he has selective vision.

How about showing me one verse that declares man has a freewill toward salvation so you can prove you’re not a liar and false prophet?

How about learning how to actually study Gods word instead of being a false one who plays games of demanding that something is worded in the way he insists it be worded.

As i said you have a terrible double standard. Nothing you ever present actually SAYS what you claim it does, yet you have the audacity to put a burden of proof on us that you exempt yourself from...I find that laughable, but typical, quite honestly.

Instead of spinning God’s Word because you do not like what it says

Present something that actually SAYS what you claim it does, then we'll talk....[/quote:k4v8l0ev]

 

[follower of Christ]

Ok fellas. Address the topic and not each other please.

Thanks Rick. I'll give it a shot.
Its getting a bit irritating that DaveSlayer had to do this again. We just got this all settled down and DS had to create yet ANOTHER thread on this same blasted topic.
I wish you guys would do something about it like making thread OPs have to be more than one or two sentences or something.
Its getting ridiculous and I know that certain members here cant help but fall into it again leaving me to have to do the ENTIRE debate all over again....