Does man have the free will choice to choose God?

[Benoni]

Do a better job of paying attention.
YOU SAID free will isnt in scripture. THAT was the point with the passage and the word presented...that YOUR assertion was fallacious. Free will DOES exist in Gods word

I have mentioned the Freewill offering many times in our debate, and you KNOW IT. I have already said it has nothing to do with salvation; why even post it you know better your self; but is that all you have?

 

[follower of Christ]

No reference to salvation here;

and again, since you dont seem to read, the point in presenting that scripture was in RESPONSE to YOUR absurd claim that free will doesnt exist in scripture.
Shall we look at your claim again ?

where is Romans 6 why don’t you quote it if it says what you claim?

I dont need to. Ive posted CLEAR scriptures that show conclusively that man DOES have choice in the matter.

Chapter and verse please?

Hilarious. Youve quoted it twice now yourself.


The 'free will' offering was mentioned a time or two in scripture, so I got to looking to see if this word was presented in any context other than an offering

H5071
נדב×â€
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5068
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1299a

Oddly there are verses that contain it that show it relating to God....and some also to MAN outside of offerings..

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:3 KJV)

"People shall be WILLING".
Same root word "nedâbâh" that is used for free will offerings in many other verses.
Apparently even OUTSIDE of offerings the word IS USED concerning man.
And what is interesting in the passage above is how the word is used and what the verse says.

A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:1-3 KJV)

Just as PAUL shows in Romans 6, we willingly SUBMIT ourselves....
His people WILLINGLY subject themselves to His rule. They dont have to be forced as some falsely preach here.

The word is also used here in reference to GOD whom we KNOW has free will....

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
(Hosea 14:4 KJV)

In the SAME manner that GOD FREELY loves them MAN can FREELY be willing to subject himself to Gods rule...

 

[follower of Christ]

I have mentioned the Freewill offering many times in our debate, and you KNOW IT. I have already said it has nothing to do with salvation; why even post it you know better your self; but is that all you have?

And AGAIN the POINT IS that the word used for 'FREE WILL' is used in this passage that ISNT ABOUT an offering but about the people being WILLING....

Again....

The 'free will' offering was mentioned a time or two in scripture, so I got to looking to see if this word was presented in any context other than an offering

H5071
נדב×â€
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5068
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1299a

Oddly there are verses that contain it that show it relating to God....and some also to MAN outside of offerings..

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:3 KJV)

"People shall be WILLING".
Same root word "nedâbâh" that is used for free will offerings in many other verses.
Apparently even OUTSIDE of offerings the word IS USED concerning man.
And what is interesting in the passage above is how the word is used and what the verse says.

A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:1-3 KJV)

Just as PAUL shows in Romans 6, we willingly SUBMIT ourselves....
His people WILLINGLY subject themselves to His rule. They dont have to be forced as some falsely preach here.

The word is also used here in reference to GOD whom we KNOW has free will....

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
(Hosea 14:4 KJV)

In the SAME manner that GOD FREELY loves them MAN can FREELY be willing to subject himself to Gods rule...

 

[Benoni]

And you are doing your best to ignore evidence that blows your error apart at the seams.

I am reading every verse you have quoted and I am addressing them each; your so far have given me nothing but subject matter not relavant to man having a freewill to save himself.

 

[Benoni]

I already addressed this post where is the beef?

I have mentioned the Freewill offering many times in our debate, and you KNOW IT. I have already said it has nothing to do with salvation; why even post it you know better your self; but is that all you have?

And AGAIN the POINT IS that the word used for 'FREE WILL' is used in this passage that ISNT ABOUT an offering but about the people being WILLING....

Again....

The 'free will' offering was mentioned a time or two in scripture, so I got to looking to see if this word was presented in any context other than an offering

H5071
נדב×â€
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5068
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1299a

Oddly there are verses that contain it that show it relating to God....and some also to MAN outside of offerings..
[quote:6pmwpcw0]Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:3 KJV)

"People shall be WILLING".
Same root word "nedâbâh" that is used for free will offerings in many other verses.
Apparently even OUTSIDE of offerings the word IS USED concerning man.
And what is interesting in the passage above is how the word is used and what the verse says.

A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:1-3 KJV)

Just as PAUL shows in Romans 6, we willingly SUBMIT ourselves....
His people WILLINGLY subject themselves to His rule. They dont have to be forced as some falsely preach here.

The word is also used here in reference to GOD whom we KNOW has free will....

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
(Hosea 14:4 KJV)

In the SAME manner that GOD FREELY loves them MAN can FREELY be willing to subject himself to Gods rule...[/quote:6pmwpcw0]

 

[follower of Christ]

I am reading every verse you have quoted and I am addressing them each; your so far have given me nothing but subject matter not relavant to man having a freewill to save himself.

And so far youve given nothing but bait and switch and this obscene strawman when NO ONE HERE has said that man can save himself

WHEN the Father draws man THEN has the choice presented to him to continue to rebel or repent.
NOt that complicated a concept...

 

[follower of Christ]

I already addressed this post where is the beef?

Sorry but ' uh uh, youre wrong' isnt addressing anything.
And just because you type words on your PC and post them doesnt mean you have refuted anything.
Passing wind thru your lips to speak doesnt mean that something valid and relevant is spoken.

 

[Benoni]

What does this have to do with tohe verses on man having a freewill or choice to save himself?
I do not care what Wm Tipton has to say, I am debating you?



DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

 

[Benoni]

Sorry but ' uh uh, youre wrong' isnt addressing anything.
And just because you type words on your PC and post them doesnt mean you have refuted anything.
Passing wind thru your lips to speak doesnt mean that something valid and relevant is spoken.

And what have I not addressed? This is proving nothing; where are your verse that declares man has a freewill.

 

[follower of Christ]

What does this have to do with tohe verses on man having a freewill or choice to save himself?

Strawman.
No one said man can.....again....

I do not care what Wm Tipton has to say, I am debating you?

I AM Wm Tipton, friend.
Stick to the topic, please.

 

[follower of Christ]

And what have I not addressed? This is proving nothing; where are your verse that declares man has a freewill.

Man has free will >>>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=257
Man can reject God/Salvation >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=181


Nuff said...

 

[Benoni]

WHEN the Father draws man THEN has the choice presented to him to continue to rebel or repent.
NOt that complicated a concept...

Then show me please? I quoted at least five verses of the eight verse where the word draw is totally contrary to the word choice or freewill. Now you show me with God's Word or the Greek where the word draw has anything to do with freewill or choice?

 

[follower of Christ]

Then show me please? I quoted at least five verses of the eight verse where the word draw is totally contrary to the word choice or freewill. Now you show me with God's Word or the Greek where the word draw has anything to do with freewill or choice?

Again

Man has free will >>>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=257
Man can reject God/Salvation >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=181

Im not going to run down your goofy maze friend....lay out the cheese for someone who may fall for it.

 

[Benoni]

Do you really expect me to read your web sites; how about using the material you learn to prove what I am saying is wrong instead of any verse you can find with the word freewill , or choice, or will that have nothing to do with man choosing his own salvation.

And what have I not addressed? This is proving nothing; where are your verse that declares man has a freewill.

Man has free will >>>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=257
Man can reject God/Salvation >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=181


Nuff said...

 

[Benoni]

Im not going to run down your goofy maze friend....lay out the cheese for someone who may fall for it.

Fall for what I am still waiting for this phantom verse you claims will prove your right?

 

[follower of Christ]

Do you really expect me to read your web sites;

Firstly, no. I dont expect you to actually read anything that is a threat to your views. I cross the same thing in the MDR arena when folks are afraid to read opposing views because they might find out they are wrong.

Secondly Ive posted ALL the material in THIS thread on page 1...AGAIN....and some of its been repeated already....so you dont have to leave this thread at all to read it. My guess is that you wont anyway.

how about using the material you learn to prove what I am saying is wrong instead of any verse you can find with the word freewill , or choice, or will that have nothing to do with man choosing his own salvation.

Ive presented the material Im going to and made my arguments. If you are unable to read them and refute them, that isnt my problem.

Secondly, and again, we KNOW that man cannot save himself.
I hope this strawman isnt all you have...

 

[follower of Christ]

Fall for what I am still waiting for this phantom verse you claims will prove your right?

About what ?
That man can reject God and salvation ?

Here it is again...tho we know you arent going to actually read it.

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

 

[Benoni]

I have read everyone one of your post and if anyone is has a straw man it is the verse you quoted not one verse has anything to do with man saving himself though freewill or choice, not one. Yes I will read your posting tomorrow morning Is that not what freewill or choice means is a man can choose God; in other words man has the ability to come to God because man decides he wants to get saved?

Man has a freewill to sin; man does not have a freewill to choice his own salvation. Notice the context of Eph.2 which I have posted to you many times.


Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active  LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power  making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Noticed man has to be quickened first then you can have faith.

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

 

[Benoni]

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

I told you many time man has a freewill to reject God; he does not have a freewill to save himself. This verse is not addressing salvation and man choosing salvation.

 

[follower of Christ]

I have read everyone one of your post and if anyone is has a straw man it is the verse you quoted not one verse has anything to do with man saving himself though freewill or choice, not one.

Again with the strawman.
Again NO ONE SAID THAT MAN CAN SAVE HIMSELF.
I can use crayons if thats too complicated.

WHEN the Father draws a man THEN the man CAN repent or he can reject...
Man CAN reject salvation >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=181
Man has free will >>> http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/ ... f=30&t=257