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Bible Study Ecclesiastes, A Bible Study by Chopper & Reba.

You did note the SOMETIMES, didn't you?
You don't miss a beat.
But here's the music:

Your above statement refers to this.
Jethro answers:
I don't. Sometimes I suffer for my own foolishness as a matter of consequence in a world built on cause and effect. But I know God can use them to teach me the disciplines of holy living.


You say above that SOMETIMES you suffer for your own foolishness - and right you are, I say it again having noticed the word SOMETIMES.

Here's what makes you suffer the other times:

There are 3 reason why man suffers and why evil flourishes:
1. Man's own mistakes. (as stated by you above).
2. Other men's actions. (the actions of others that affect us personally).
3. Nature. (a hurricane ain't pretty)

God does not wish you to suffer.
God loves you.

W
 
If you are gifted to do that. Paul obviously was. He said some of the Corinthians were ill , and even some died, because of the way they treated some in the church with contempt.
Are you SURE you never received communion or ate at the Lord's table, without maybe having some sin present? Did you die? Have you ever seen anyone die for this? 1 Corinthians 11:28-30
Paul was demanding, wasn't he? A bad conscience is an ugly thing. Leads to stress, colds, flu, high blood pressure, stroke, even heart attack. Could this be what Paul was referring to? Does it come from not following God's Law or did God point a finger and make someone purposefully die?


No offense, but I'm confident I will be wasting my time to fully explain to you what my school of thought actually means instead of the erroneous, incomplete view you have of it now. Here's something for you to consider:

18Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right and on His left. 19“The LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. 20“Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘How?’ 21“He said, ‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.’ 22“Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of these your prophets, for the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.” (2 Chronicles 18:18-22 NASB)

"11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 NASB)

Read them carefully and thoughtfully and see just how God can and will purposely cause bad things to happen.
Explanations are never a waste of time. People are reading along. I've heard all the explanations and have made up my mind. Can I convince you that the sin nature is not dead? No. But we could still discuss. Little truths come out - all is helpful.

Question: Why do some persist in trying to convince me that God is a mean God.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
Paul is speaking of the coming of the anti-Christ or the man of rebellion who will tear down every good work and go to sit in the temple of God, claiming he is a god. So the good works are already being torn down. God is disappearing from everywhere. The fields are being prepared. verse 7.

God is holding him back. But Jesus will destroy him when he does make his appearance. verse 8

This man will be satan's tool. He'll trick everyone with strange demonstrations. He'll fool those on their way to hell because they have rejected the truth and salvation. verse 10

So God will ALLOW THEM to believe those lies with their hearts, and all of them will be justly judged for refusing the truth and accepting The Lie. (that the man of rebellion is God). verse 11
(or do you think God sending them the "delusion" or "deluding influence as per the NASB, means that GOD is deluding them?? - which would mean that God wants some to be lost purposefully)

And those who believe the lie and refuse Christ and the truth will be justly judged. verse 12
They'll be justly judged. Can they be justly judged if God made them to NOT believe in Christ?

This all goes to the same idea as in the O.T. when we read of God hardening hearts. It doesn't mean He purposefully and willfully hardened their hearts to be mean - it means God said "okay, that's how you want it, that's how you can have it" and he left them to their own devices.

I'm not saying that God CANNOT harden a heart for some specific purpose. God is God and He'll do what He wants to do. I'm saying that this cannot be taken as a general rule to be applied to all men and in every circumstance. If we want to say that God is love (1 John 4:16b and John 3:16 etc etc) then I think we should think of Him in that way.

W
 
I would say that everything that happens has been allowed by God, but not that He causes everything to happen.

From reading about God's actions on the people in the Old Testiment, it seems like He was very active. Evil exists in people, but often there were consquences from God that were detremential. Both for Israel who sinned against God, and foreign nations that stood against Israel and that that sinned and performed evil throughout their society.

I think God allows us our choices, and through them His will is done. (Or in spite of our choices sometimes, God's will is still done.) But I also think nothing can happen without God's permission. Our freedom of different choices and different paths in life I think are because God gives them to us. When God wants to he causes us wonderful experiences, and other time to learn or because of a punishment He causes some horrible effects in our lives.
 
Paul was demanding, wasn't he? A bad conscience is an ugly thing. Leads to stress, colds, flu, high blood pressure, stroke, even heart attack. Could this be what Paul was referring to? Does it come from not following God's Law or did God point a finger and make someone purposefully die?

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.


So God will ALLOW THEM to believe those lies with their hearts, and all of them will be justly judged for refusing the truth and accepting The Lie. (that the man of rebellion is God). verse 11
(or do you think God sending them the "delusion" or "deluding influence as per the NASB, means that GOD is deluding them?? - which would mean that God wants some to be lost purposefully)

Does God send them strong delusion? Or does he allow them to be deluded? We might be able to squabble over semantics, but in the end, do we need to find some distinction? If yes, then why? Who am I to question the Lord's will.

Isaiah 45:5-9
I am the Lord, and there is none else,
there is no God beside me:
I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me.
I am the Lord, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:

I the Lord do all these things.
Drop down, ye heavens, from above,
and let the skies pour down righteousness:
let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation,
and let righteousness spring up together;

I the Lord have created it.
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker.

The Lord forms light, and creates darkness, He makes peace, and He creates evil. Followed by the new creation. The new Heaven and the new earth, wherein dwells the righteousness of Christ.


Tell me, a farmer prepares his fields to plant a garden, and he tills the soil, plowing it under. He breaks apart the clods of clay and makes for a good field ready to be sown. He furrows the soil and then casts his seeds into the ground and then buries them under, waiting for them to be called forth by the power of the sun. He irrigates his garden by a well fed from a spring, and he takes care that adequate drainage is provided.

Now when the seedlings come forth from the soil a new creation, the farmer lets them grow. He does not yet begin to weed the garden, for he can not tell the difference between the weeds and the seedlings at this stage, so he lets them grow together. When the seedlings have grown mature enough, the farmer then sets forth to tend to his garden, and he begins to pull the weeds from ground, so that they do not choke out his precious seedlings. BUT; the farmer does not stop with just the weeds No, the farmer goes on to begin thinning the seedlings, precious though they may be, but he pulls them too from the soil so that the garden can bear much fruit. As the farmer tending to your garden, why do you pull one plant from the ground and not another? You might start by plucking the weak and spindly, but what if three strong plants sprouted up upon each other, would you not pluck up two of them so that the third might bear fruit?


In the cycle of life, if a rotten apple falls from the tree, does it go to waste?

.
 
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Isaiah 45:5-9
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:

I the Lord do all these things.


This verse has been tossed around before, I make peace, and create evil. It is a difficult verse to properly understand and can, on the surface of the statement, come to the conclusion that God is the Author of evil, which He is not. Lets look at a few statements from great theologians....
John Gill....
"God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God." see Job_2:10,

John Calvin....
"Making peace, and creating evil. By the words “light” and “darkness” he describes metaphorically not only peace and war; but adverse and prosperous events of any kind; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts “peace” not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts “peace” with “evil,” that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted “righteousness” with “evil,” there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the “evil” of punishment, but not of the “evil” of guilt."

Matthew Henry....
"I form the light, which is grateful and pleasing, and I create darkness, which is grievous and unpleasing. I make peace (put here for all good) and I create evil, not the evil of sin (God is not the author of that), but the evil of punishment. I the Lord order, and direct, and do all these things."

As others have already noted, Satan is the author of the evil of sin, not God. As John Gill said, God suffers it. Even just simple reasoning, I could never attribute evil as a creation of my ever loving, gracious, Heavenly Father. Once He has finally dealt with the author of sin, Satan, and has thrown him into the lake of fire where he belongs, God creates a new Heaven and Earth with the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven where it is now, there will be an absence of evil and sin forever, never to re-appear....Praise Him Who is worthy of all praise from those whom He has rescued from the grips of sin and death. Praise the Holy One, Jehovah our Elohim, the Great I AM.
 
Question: Why do some persist in trying to convince me that God is a mean God.
See, I told you you had an inaccurate and incomplete understanding of what I'm defending here. :lol And I also think you are so set in your indoctrination that trying to make you see the actual argument, not the one you think is being set forth, will be futile. It's interesting how justice is so often misunderstood to be hate. That's childish thinking, not mature thinking that can see the necessity and the rightness of punishing wrong doing.
 
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God does not wish you to suffer.
God loves you.
And because he is loving and just he will cause evil things to happen. Immature thinking can only understand the 'evil' he sends and causes as being unloving--like the child who can only understand the 'mean and evil' things their parents do as hatred towards them.

(or do you think God sending them the "delusion" or "deluding influence as per the NASB, means that GOD is deluding them?? - which would mean that God wants some to be lost purposefully)
Yep. That's what the passages say that I posted. He himself causes the delusion by sending it, and does that so they will be lost. Of course, he doesn't want that for them, but they themselves chose to not believe the truth and be saved.
 
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Are you SURE you never received communion or ate at the Lord's table, without maybe having some sin present? Did you die? Have you ever seen anyone die for this? 1 Corinthians 11:28-30
I actually think my mom--a Christian--may have died of cancer because of a deep bitterness she had inside. Not because bitterness in and of itself causes cancer, but because, as a Christian, she was bitter towards other people. I also think as she languished in the disease, especially after she got to hospice, that God dealt with it in the spirit between himself and her before she left the body.

A bad conscience is an ugly thing. Leads to stress, colds, flu, high blood pressure, stroke, even heart attack. Could this be what Paul was referring to?
What they were guilty of does not imply they knew what they were doing and would, therefore, have been conscience stricken about it. It's pretty clear in the passage that they were being careless and unthoughtful about others in the congregation, not purposely spiteful, yet God judged them for their careless thoughtlessness anyway. Sickness, particularly, has a way of making you examine your life.
 
Is war always sin? I think from the context around this verse we can see that it is not. But it certainly evil to the one who is destroyed. God will cause it,
Adam Clarke's Commentary
....
With reference to this absurd opinion, held by the person to whom this prophecy is addressed, God, by his prophet, in the most significant terms, asserts his omnipotence and absolute supremacy: -
“I am Jehovah, and none else;
Forming light, and creating darkness,
Making peace, and creating evil:
I Jehovah am the author of all these things.”
....
I make peace, and create evil - Evil is here evidently put for war and its attendant miseries. I will procure peace for the Israelites, and destroy Babylon by war. I form light, and create darkness. Now, as darkness is only the privation of light, so the evil of war is the privation of peace.
 
why o why does this idea come to my mind
A forum for Bible study discussions.
This is not a debate forum

watch that ever so fine line guys and dolls :biggrin2
 
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Does God send them strong delusion? Or does he allow them to be deluded? We might be able to squabble over semantics, but in the end, do we need to find some distinction? If yes, then why? Who am I to question the Lord's will.
Semantics? We're discussing whether or not God causes evil and bad things to happen.
1. Does God send them strong delusion
2. Does God allow them to be deluded

You don't see a difference?

The first one accepts that there is only God. He will be sending the delusion.
The second one accepts that there is another force at work in the created universe. An evil force. God allows that force to delude the people.

As I said, we don't know why or how this works BUT that does not mean that we're to believe that God wants evil to befall us. I have posted so many scriptures that go unread, not commented upon,etc.

We need to find the distinction because I am not willing to love a God who causes me harm. All my life I've been told that God is love and that He loves me. People who love me try not to cause me harm although sometimes they will due to their humanity. God is perfect - if HE loves me, I believe He is capable of not causing me harm.

Isaiah 45:5-9
I am the Lord, and there is none else,
there is no God beside me:
I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
that there is none beside me.
I am the Lord, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:

I the Lord do all these things.
Drop down, ye heavens, from above,
and let the skies pour down righteousness:
let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation,
and let righteousness spring up together;

I the Lord have created it.
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker.

The Lord forms light, and creates darkness, He makes peace, and He creates evil. Followed by the new creation. The new Heaven and the new earth, wherein dwells the righteousness of Christ.
God does not create evil. Chopper explained this passage well, and especially the word "evil" in the 8th sentence.


Tell me, a farmer prepares his fields to plant a garden, and he tills the soil, plowing it under. He breaks apart the clods of clay and makes for a good field ready to be sown. He furrows the soil and then casts his seeds into the ground and then buries them under, waiting for them to be called forth by the power of the sun. He irrigates his garden by a well fed from a spring, and he takes care that adequate drainage is provided.

Now when the seedlings come forth from the soil a new creation, the farmer lets them grow. He does not yet begin to weed the garden, for he can not tell the difference between the weeds and the seedlings at this stage, so he lets them grow together. When the seedlings have grown mature enough, the farmer then sets forth to tend to his garden, and he begins to pull the weeds from ground, so that they do not choke out his precious seedlings. BUT; the farmer does not stop with just the weeds No, the farmer goes on to begin thinning the seedlings, precious though they may be, but he pulls them too from the soil so that the garden can bear much fruit. As the farmer tending to your garden, why do you pull one plant from the ground and not another? You might start by plucking the weak and spindly, but what if three strong plants sprouted up upon each other, would you not pluck up two of them so that the third might bear fruit?

In the cycle of life, if a rotten apple falls from the tree, does it go to waste?
.

This kind of reminded me of the parable of the Tares and the Wheat, but you put a different twist on it.
Mathew 13:24-30
So what you're saying is that God might kill me to save someone else???

In the parable, doesn't Jesus say to let the tares and the wheat grow together and it'll be divided at the harvest?

In looking for the above passage, I came across:
Luke 12:7
It says that God cares for us more than he does the sparrows, and He even cares for them. He certainly is not the one who makes them get sick, or get hungry, etc.

W
 
See, I told you you had an inaccurate and incomplete understanding of what I'm defending here. :lol And I also think you are so set in your indoctrination that trying to make you see the actual argument, not the one you think is being set forth, will be futile. It's interesting how justice is so often misunderstood to be hate. That's childish thinking, not mature thinking that can see the necessity and the rightness of punishing wrong doing.
I like being a child. Jesus said "let the children come to me."
Justice, hate, what's the difference if it's God who makes me sick.
He's still a mean God in my book.

W
 
And because he is loving and just he will cause evil things to happen. Immature thinking can only understand the 'evil' he sends and causes as being unloving--like the child who can only understand the 'mean and evil' things their parents do as hatred towards them.


Yep. That's what the passages say that I posted. He himself causes the delusion by sending it, and does that so they will be lost. Of course, He doesn't want that for them, but they themselves chose to not believe the truth and be saved.
He sends the delusion so they will be lost?
Nice. Sounds like a nice God.
But then you say he DOESN'T want that for them, but they themselves chose to not believe.
Which is it?? He sends the delusion so they will be lost OR He doesn't want them to be lost.

W
P.S. Parents who do "mean and evil" things to their children do not love them. They should also be careful how their children are raised. 1 Thessalonians 5:22 Avoid evil and the appearance of evil. Parents are not supposed to even seem evil to their children.
 
If you are gifted to do that. Paul obviously was. He said some of the Corinthians were ill , and even some died, because of the way they treated some in the church with contempt.


No offense, but I'm confident I will be wasting my time to fully explain to you what my school of thought actually means instead of the erroneous, incomplete view you have of it now. Here's something for you to consider:

18Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right and on His left. 19“The LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this while another said that. 20“Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘How?’ 21“He said, ‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.’ 22“Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of these your prophets, for the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.” (2 Chronicles 18:18-22 NASB)

"11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 NASB)

Read them carefully and thoughtfully and see just how God can and will purposely cause bad things to happen.

I understand what you're getting at here Jethro. It is my belief that in sorrow, God allows these things to happen. It's not His will. God is reacting to....
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Evil comes upon man because of his sins against the Holy God. Certainly, God would rather mankind obey His Commands, Statues, and Rules. They were instituted so that God could, and would, bless Israel, who were supposed to be our example of righteousness. BUT, because Israel rebelled against YHWH and His Commands, Statues, and Rules, man gave God no choice but to allow evil, in various forms, to fall upon disobedient Israel to chastise them as a lesson to all.

The lesson is, live in harmony with our loving, gracious Creator. Look what He provided because Israel was so rebellious and couldn't seem to get it together in all their days on earth before John the Baptist showed up. Our loving God Who hates evil, provided His only Son Jesus to come to our earth, live His example because Israel was incapable of doing so, went to the Cross and died to, once and for all, take away our sin, and sins.

I believe that it grieves the heart of God to see His Children suffer under chastisement, simply because, for one reason or another, they violated a Command of God that was intended to bring them peace and joy. When my two kids were growing up, I set certain rules in place so they wouldn't get hurt. If they disregarded a rule and got hurt, I put a band-aid on the hurt, plus, I restricted them from a favorite thing that they liked just to teach a lesson not to disobey a rule that was in place to protect them.

As far as they were concerned, the restriction was evil.
 
If they disregarded a rule and got hurt, I put a band-aid on the hurt, plus, I restricted them from a favorite thing that they liked just to teach a lesson not to disobey a rule that was in place to protect them.
Could we say then that you were not punishing them for what they did, but were restoring them to right thinking?

That is how I see God's chastisement. He is restoring us to right thinking, to have the mind of Christ.
 
This kind of reminded me of the parable of the Tares and the Wheat, but you put a different twist on it.
Mathew 13:24-30
So what you're saying is that God might kill me to save someone else???


Are, we back to taking all thing literal again? If you are in Christ, then aren't you already dead? To receive Christ is to accept your death.
 
Isaiah 45:5-9
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.


This verse has been tossed around before, I make peace, and create evil. It is a difficult verse to properly understand and can, on the surface of the statement, come to the conclusion that God is the Author of evil, which He is not. Lets look at a few statements from great theologians....
John Gill....
"God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God." see Job_2:10,

John Calvin....
"Making peace, and creating evil. By the words “light” and “darkness” he describes metaphorically not only peace and war; but adverse and prosperous events of any kind; and he extends the word peace, according to the custom of Hebrew writers, to all success and prosperity. This is made abundantly clear by the contrast; for he contrasts “peace” not only with war, but with adverse events of every sort. Fanatics torture this word evil, as if God were the author of evil, that is, of sin; but it is very obvious how ridiculously they abuse this passage of the Prophet. This is sufficiently explained by the contrast, the parts of which must agree with each other; for he contrasts “peace” with “evil,” that is, with afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences. If he contrasted “righteousness” with “evil,” there would be some plausibility in their reasonings, but this is a manifest contrast of things that are opposite to each other. Consequently, we ought not to reject the ordinary distinction, that God is the author of the “evil” of punishment, but not of the “evil” of guilt."

Matthew Henry....
"I form the light, which is grateful and pleasing, and I create darkness, which is grievous and unpleasing. I make peace (put here for all good) and I create evil, not the evil of sin (God is not the author of that), but the evil of punishment. I the Lord order, and direct, and do all these things."

As others have already noted, Satan is the author of the evil of sin, not God. As John Gill said, God suffers it. Even just simple reasoning, I could never attribute evil as a creation of my ever loving, gracious, Heavenly Father. Once He has finally dealt with the author of sin, Satan, and has thrown him into the lake of fire where he belongs, God creates a new Heaven and Earth with the New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven where it is now, there will be an absence of evil and sin forever, never to re-appear....Praise Him Who is worthy of all praise from those whom He has rescued from the grips of sin and death. Praise the Holy One, Jehovah our Elohim, the Great I AM.

I don't mean to be critical Chopper, but why the need to turn to the doctrines of men to explain these verses? Why do we try so hard to explain away this scripture? Is it because we find it so hard to accept? Do we think by adding more voices in agreement that we can establish the doctrines of men? Why can't we accept the words in their simplicity, as they are written? Are you now the judge of God?

I myself find great peace within these verses. I find no reason to try and explain them away. By ascribing evil to Satan, you then give power to Satan. But these verses tell me Satan has no power. These verses tell me that the Lord is in complete control.

You say that evil is of Satan, but who created Satan?
The strength of Sin is of the Law, and by the law is a curse; Is the law then of Satan?
Did death come by the command of Satan, or did death come by the command of the Lord?
 
Which is it?? He sends the delusion so they will be lost OR He doesn't want them to be lost.
Both. (You asked a question and I'm answering it, not debating you.)
When you can reconcile these two truths then you will be able to understand what I'm saying:

God wants all men to be saved:
"God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB)

"9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9 NASB)

Yet he will save only a few:
"14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:14 NASB)

And so it is that God does not want men to be deluded but will in fact send the very delusion he does not want them to be deluded by. You don't see how they can both be true. Yet, similarly, God wants all men to be saved, but will only save a few and will destroy the rest.
 
Are, we back to taking all thing literal again? If you are in Christ, then aren't you already dead? To receive Christ is to accept your death.
It's not literal EZ. I'm not expecting God to kill anyone. It's hyperbole. But you said:
You might start by plucking the weak and spindly, but what if three strong plants sprouted up upon each other, would you not pluck up two of them so that the third might bear fruit?

If you pluck two strong plants that have sprouted, don't they die? You're stopping their growth. And you're doing this so that the third might bear fruit. I know about this. You take two away to make the third stronger. It distributes the food of the plant better, it strengthens the one that is left. But the other two whither and die.

What are we talking about here? Is God so small that He could not handle all three?

And as to your post 198. What DO you think about satan? Has he no say in what happens? Do we just hold God responsible for everything? Are we not living in satan's domain?
Ephesians 2:2

W

 
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