Employment

[Chris]

I have been thinking about this concept recently and the way people assume its the life long goal for every person to find self realization/satisfaction in meaningful employment.

You didn't ask to be born and then when you are, somehow there is an expectation you will become a wage slave for 40 years. Part of that is likely to be miserable at times for various reasons.

Who dreamed that up? I like the garden of Eden idea!

It is amazing how differently people respond to you in conversation if you are working or not.

If you say to someone you are unemployed sometimes it puts a real damper on the chat, but if you say you have some cool job they want to know all about you, even though you are the same person employed or not.

In the past i have lost a couple of jobs and peoples response is similar to the sad news of someone dying. " I am sorry to hear that" etc.

It sure is not the focus of my life, its what do because I have to.

Is Employment for everyone?

Is its worth over emphasized sometimes?


What do you think?

 

[Tina]

Without employment, how is one supposed to earn a living and make ends meet especially in this world of rat race?

Of course, some people have steady income flowing in from sources other than employment, that's fine. But if we're able bodied and can make a difference in the career industry, why not?

The Bible exhorts us to work, do something useful with our hands and contribute to the needy.


Ephesians 4:28
Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

 

[Potluck]

Look back at the turn of the century over a 100 years ago and you'll find the majority engaged in small business rather than working for someone else. It wasn't until the Industrial Age that people turned to factories/industry for income.

But those small businesses still required hours of work each day. You had to man the shop if you were going to serve the customer to turn a profit. You were still employed, not by someone else but by self.

Employed by others or self-employed one still needs to make a living regardless if it was your choice or not to live in the first place. Supporting oneself should always be the goal. Just because one didn't ask to be born doesn't mean one doesn't have to ask for a job. Besides, accepting the belief that one is not born to work is far too tempting an idea to pass up. Why should I work if I have the choice to rely on government to take from others and give it to me? Socialism fails because it eventually runs out of other people's money.

 

[Pebbles]

I'm personally more disgusted by the lie that working hard will make your situation better that's just an excuse told to pepole to keep them subserviant.

I wouldn't mind if I was doing a job that actually helped pepole but nobody is intrested in hearing me on that. poor pepole are only good for menial labour in the eyes of capitalism.

Hard work gets you nothing... Recessions caused by the wealthy and powerful only hurt the poor and powerless.

Following true story. I worked in a supermarket it was one of thousands of stores in the company. They recently made a loss as the economy has slid back into recession recently.

Head office demands that all the stores must make cuts to return the company to growth. the manager has discretion... Either he cuts his own generous salary or he makes several workers redundant.

He choose the latter begin self serving to a fault. And I lost my job begin one of the 3 he laid off.

Now was it my or the other twos fault that we were fired? Did we exclusively cause the company to fall into non-profit?

doubtful I only stacked shelves and served pepole at the checkouts, but we suffered for it because I was easy to dismiss compaired to many others in the store with years of service and redundancy packets attached to their contract termination.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are we defined by what job we have or should we be defined by our own integrity. Personally I would love to go off the grid and live off the land and might have to some day, but for now will just thank the Lord for his provision for my husband and myself so we in turn can bless others through the finances of his job.

 

[Chris]

I sorta wonder if what the lord had in mind. By work was an all consuming fast paced 50 hour week full of stress at a level of 100% accuracy or if employment in Jesus time was more moderately paced?

 

[Potluck]

This trend toward "Working is the enemy because of this or that" is not good. Working hard is the key yes, but that doesn't mean effort toward improving one's value in the workplace, learning from failure and working smart should be ignored.
There is and always will be failure. Nobody on this earth can guarantee you success. Only you can make the difference. Relying on someone else because one succumbs to the idea of unfairness that is beginning to infect our country does nothing what-so-ever for the greater good. Nothing.
Life is not fair. Never was, never is, never will be. Nobody is responsible for you or your welfare. You are. Anyone telling you he or she can make life fair is as disconnected from reality as fantasy. Following them is easy. Getting out of the pitfalls of following them isn't.

 

[Damascus]

I know where you're coming from, Chris. I've always felt the same way. To me, chasing the dollar is ridiculous, and I feel that we as human beings should have evolved in thought far beyond this idea of wage trading. I wish we would have all stayed on the same track as our ancient ancestors -- tribal communities, every man has his role, all work together. Some men to chop wood, some men to build, some men to fish, some men to hunt, some men to tan and skin hide, some men to craft, so on, etc. I don't believe we were meant for this suit and tie charade. And I certainly don't believe in the way the Federal Reserve and big corporations run my country.

If we reverted to those ways, the obesity epidemic? Gone. Debt? Nearly eliminated. Community? Re-established.

Of course, it's all just a dream. We're too far gone now, but, I empathize with where you're coming from and I wish we could see a change as well.

 

[Potluck]

I sorta wonder if what the lord had in mind. By work was an all consuming fast paced 50 hour week full of stress or if employment in Jesus time was more moderately paced?

There was very little "employment" if any at all back then or even 100 years ago. People eeked out a living with a trade demanding even more than only 50 hours a week in most cases working from sunup to sundown. Many last names originated by the trade one did and more often than not the sons carried on the trade from the father. If they failed they had to do something else without relying on someone else to bail them out. Communism doesn't work. Socialism doesn't work.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"
Karl Marx

That sounds great. But it attacks the motivation to do better.

 

[Chris]

There was very little "employment" if any at all back then or even 100 years ago. People eeked out a living with a trade. If they failed they had to do something else without relying on someone else to bail them out. Communism doesn't work. Socialism doesn't work.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"
Karl Marx

That sounds great. But it attacks the motivation to do better.

I have worked as an electrical contractor where I literally ran all day and did things at a very rapid pace like having a time frame of 2 hours to have an air conditioner installed in a house or rewire one in 2 days. Working on an engineering office is slightly better but still fast paced. Don't take me wrong I work hard. It seems to be how it is when I work.

The key thing in this thread was how work is sometimes portrayed as our reason for living and measure of self worth to some degree.

Working has never given me a sense of fulfillment other things have. It's not one of my most treasured things in life or the holy grail of my existence.

 

[Potluck]

Nobody on their death bed ever said they should have worked more. And I've never seen a U-Haul following a hearse. I understand that.
Our so-called "fast paced" work ethic being tooted here as something new because of the modern age isn't. I work 40 hrs a week like most people employed in the workforce. We have laws against child labor, laws for minimum wage, laws requiring safety, laws protecting the rights of the employee in a lot of cases and laws requiring breaks during work hours.
We didn't live back then knowing the hardships endured and it isn't taught in our schools. Should it be taught? I don't know. Perhaps. Might not be a bad idea. But all in all we today have a lot to be thankful for compared to those who were forced by necessity to endure the hardships our laws protect us from today. 50 hours is little compared to what many back then had to endure whether it was in self-employment or being employed during the early years of the Industrial Age.

And yes, there is the social inclination toward a measure of worth. That too always has been, always is and always will be. It's just another one of those things of life. One must provide for himself/herself for there is little to no fulfillment anyway in expecting others to be responsible for your welfare.

We have to work for a living. There's no getting around that. It would be nice if society accepted the idea that we all work regardless of position, to pay the bills due of self support and applaud everyone equally. But that notion isn't human nature. Never will be while on this earth. That's no reason to up and quit working, quit life, quit society and preach that working for a living is useless, mindless and illogical standing on a platform of unfairness.

 

[Vic C.]

There was very little "employment" if any at all back then or even 100 years ago. People eeked out a living with a trade demanding even more than only 50 hours a week in most cases working from sunup to sundown. Many last names originated by the trade one did and more often than not the sons carried on the trade from the father. If they failed they had to do something else without relying on someone else to bail them out. Communism doesn't work. Socialism doesn't work.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"
Karl Marx

That sounds great. But it attacks the motivation to do better.

Rick and Tina, I agree 100% with both of you.

The US is leaning more towards a socialist mentality more and more and look at the state of this country...

People have a Twinkie in one hand and the other hand is out, looking for their "entitlement" payoff.

That is so bad for the health of the soul and spirit and the country in general. A good clean, honest working environment is good, not bad. Instead of bringing others down, why not try to raise our own value?

When we start using our jobs as a sort of status symbol, we lose focus on why we really work for our living. We work primarily for sustenance. If you are happy at that level, fine! If you desire more (and I hope more means you give more back), under a more capitalistic, free enterprise system, you have that option.

Lets remember, there is just as much, or even more, corruption in a socialist or communist system and lees freedom to allow the system to work for you.

 

[Pebbles]

There was very little "employment" if any at all back then or even 100 years ago. People eeked out a living with a trade demanding even more than only 50 hours a week in most cases working from sunup to sundown. Many last names originated by the trade one did and more often than not the sons carried on the trade from the father. If they failed they had to do something else without relying on someone else to bail them out. Communism doesn't work. Socialism doesn't work.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"
Karl Marx

That sounds great. But it attacks the motivation to do better.

That's not exactly true if you were a subsistence farmer then you worked extremely long days during spring and autumn however during summer and winter (particularly winter) you did nothing at all really beyond trying to cling to life. So really the notion they worked absurdly hard all the time is wrong.

This is why most of our holidays are in winter (And why pagans celebrated the winter solstice and why Christmas was moved to overlap it when christianity came to replace paganism) Because nobody had anything else to do and holding random celebrations was a nice way of trying to cheer up abit after your 3rd child died of Hypothermia/Dysentry/Peumonia/Starvation/Smallpox

Whereas christs date of birth was probably closer to october right in the middle of the harvest they wouldn't have had much luck encouraging subsistance farmers to take a day off in the middle of harvest.

 

[Davies]

Hi Chris,

I was thinking that work is a gift from God. Ecclesiastes claims that God keeps us from dwelling unduly, or in an inappropriate manner by keeping us busy. Is work for everyone? Perhaps work is for everyone, but I don't think everyone can be employed for personal reasons and economic reasons. I think God planned it that way so we would have to take care of those who are not able, kinda like how God cares for all of us.

Ecclesiastes 5:18-20
New King James Version (NKJV)
18 Here is what I have seen: It is good and fitting for one to eat and drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labor in which he toils under the sun all the days of his life which God gives him; for it is his heritage. 19 As for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, and given him power to eat of it, to receive his heritage and rejoice in his labor—this is the gift of God. 20 For he will not dwell unduly on the days of his life, because God keeps him busy with the joy of his heart.

- Davies

 

[ChristianNationalist]

How do you expect to survive? Do you expect the rest of us that DO work to support you? That sounds like an extremely selfish lifestyle.

 

[Potluck]

Farmers did nothing at all really during the summer and winter (particularly winter)? You're are kidding me right? :
Just plant the corn in the spring, lounge out on the porch all summer watching it grow, harvest in the autumn and sit by the fire all winter making cornbread and babies.
Umm, yeah.

"Because nobody had anything else to do and holding random celebrations was a nice way of trying to cheer up abit"

Oh... my... word.
lol

 

[Nathan Alterton]

In the Bible normal work, not just evangelistic work, is taught to be both necessary and valuable.

Work is necessary (Note: all Biblical quotes are from the ESV):

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.

Proverbs 12:11
Whoever works his land will have plenty of bread, but he who follows worthless pursuits lacks sense.

Proverbs 28:19
Whoever works his land will have plenty of bread, but he who follows worthless pursuits will have plenty of poverty.

2 Thessalonians 3:10-12
For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.

While work is necessary, it is also taught that hard work is good, or conversely, failure to work hard is bad:

Proverbs 18:9
Whoever is slack in his work is a brother to him who destroys.

Proverbs 22:29
Do you see a man skillful in his work? He will stand before kings; he will not stand before obscure men.

1 Thessalonians 4:10b-12
But we urge you, brothers, to do this more and more, and to aspire to live quietly, and to mind your own affairs, and to work with your hands, as we instructed you, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.

2 Thessalonians 3:7-8
For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.

God created us in his image; what that means is that we share elements I his nature, of interest to this conversation, we share his creativity and productivity. To fail to create and to fail to work is a failure to reflect God's given nature.

 

[Mike]

The key thing in this thread was how work is sometimes portrayed as our reason for living and measure of self worth to some degree.

Chris, when I read this and your OP, I couldn't help but think that *maybe* you only perceive this measure of worth that others see in you. As a man with a wife and kids, I've felt some of this when I was laid off for a while. I've known some men who have been in deep valleys because of it.

It's up to us to settle it in our own hearts that God doesn't use the figure at the bottom of our paychecks to put values on us. And for the most part, people who know us don't either. It's often the view we have of ourselves that needs to change. Paul said he found the secret is to be content in all circumstances; that he knew what it was like to be with and without.

We should seek the riches of His Kingdom, and the heck with what others think. We can't control what others think, but I for one refuse to let them define my worth. This isn't to say we shouldn't use the gifts God Gave us. Paul also said he never looked for handouts when he went to a town. He earned his own keep as a tent-maker.

But, I still maintain that the notion that people who know us don't put a value on us by what we do. Think about it. Do you look down on others who are out of work, especially in this global financial climate? Why would you think others do if you don't? We're fathers, hausbands, and friends first, but more than anything, we are sons of the Father.

 

[Chris]

A lot of people are unemployed at the moment. I was emphasizing how having no job does not make your life meaningless or less of a person.

A lot of people put an unnecessary stress on people in that situation by over emphasizing the importance of paid work.


Ok so you gotta get of your lazy but and get busy.....we all know it. You have to do your bit.

Some voluntary work and stay at home mums are pretty important too. Take for example the canteen mum volunteers at the school.

 

[jasoncran]

2 my my, we have a farmer here that posts often.

and there are plants that grow in different seasons. apples grow in the colder climates. oranges produce in the winter time in florida and california and in afghanistan.(november to may)and so does all citrus.so it depends on what one grows.