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Ephesians 2:10

Simple answer...no. Not because doing good works is a requirement but because doing good works becomes a part of who we are. Can God not do good works? Once we surrender to the Holy Spirit, I don't see how it is possible for us to not do good works.

It seems you are making the "works" into a task, chore, test, or something we must accomplish and I don't see it that way. I believe we do the works out of desire and not out of duty or obligation. For when we do good works we have nothing to boast about ergo, it does not make us extra special. There's nothing to gain for us by doing the work. Jesus doesn't serve for gain but he serves because that is what he does and who he is.

Lu:17:5: And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
Lu:17:6: And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
Lu:17:7: But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Lu:17:8: And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Lu:17:9: Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
Lu:17:10: So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
Hi,

You say " Not because doing good works is a requirement..."

Are not those good works per Eph 2:10 a requirement to REMAIN or MAINTAIN salvation for onne already a Christian? If you say "no" then your saying one can be a Christian and maintain salvation by not doing those "before ordained" works.

You post " I don't see how it is possible for us to not do good works."

Then aren't you admitting that maintaining salvation is conditional upon doing those good works? or that maintain salvation is not possible without doing good works?

Lastly you post " I believe we do the works out of desire and not out of duty or obligation."

I would say what a Christian does or does not desire has nothing to do with it. The good works of Eph 2:10 is not open to desire, but have been "before ordained" for the Christian to walk in regardless what the Christian does or does not desire. So the Christian MUST walk in them no matter what the Christian desires. A Christian has no choice in this matter.
 
Something that I am now struggling with as I read my own posts here is that I am saying things that seem to counter what I have previously thought and now I question my own understanding. I have previously concluded that it is possible for one who is saved to turn and reject God. But then I read what I just wrote in this thread that I don't think it is possible to not do the works after being saved. So which is it? If I can turn and reject God was I really saved to begin with?

Things to ponder.


The bible speaks of those who turn from the faith. How could one turn from the faith if he never had faith to begin with? So it is possible for one to be in a saved position yet fall from it as Judas. Luke said Judas fell by transgression, how could one fall from transgression if he were always in transgression? One would first have to be in a state where he is not trangressing, a saved state, in order to fall from it. As an apostle Judas was in a saved state but fell from it by transgressing.


But besides this the question remains: can one be a Christian and/or remain a Christian without doing the good works per Eph 2:10?
 
You seem to be twisting what I'm saying for the purpose of creating an argument. Well, at least that's how it is coming across so I won't allow myself to get drawn in any further but I will try to clarify one more time.

It is my contention that the good works we do after being saved are not done out of our own desire for personal gain, that is to achieve or hold on to salvation, but a desire that becomes part of who we are. We put off the old self (nature) and put on the new (nature). It becomes part of our nature to do good works.
 
You seem to be twisting what I'm saying for the purpose of creating an argument. Well, at least that's how it is coming across so I won't allow myself to get drawn in any further but I will try to clarify one more time.

It is my contention that the good works we do after being saved are not done out of our own desire for personal gain, that is to achieve or hold on to salvation, but a desire that becomes part of who we are. We put off the old self (nature) and put on the new (nature). It becomes part of our nature to do good works.


It is not my intention to twist what you are saying, I am simply asking can one be a Christian and/or remain a Christian and NOT do those good works.

You say a Christian would desire to do good works. But I am not interested in what a Christian desires for Eph 2:10 mandates, requires those good works be done by a Christian regardless of what a Christian desires. The fact God has mandated them makes those good works a necessary condition to salvation.

Maybe another way to ask my question; if faith only is how one BECOMES a Christian, is faith only all that is needed to REMAIN a Christian?

If one answered 'yes' to this question, then they are implying no works are needed to BECOME a Christian and no works are NEEDED AFTER one already is a Christian and somehow they skirt around Eph 2:10; Matt 25, etc, that REQUIRE, MANDATE the Christian do good works.
 
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It is not my intention to twist what you are saying, I am simply asking can one be a Christian and/or remain a Christian and NOT do those good works.

You say a Christian would desire to do good works. But I am not interested in what a Christian desires for Eph 2:10 mandates, requires those good works be done by a Christian regardless of what a Christian desires. The fact God has mandated them makes those good works a necessary condition to salvation.

Maybe another way to ask my question; if faith only is how one BECOMES a Christian, is faith only all that is needed to REMAIN a Christian?

If one answered 'yes' to this question, then they are implying no works are needed to BECOME a Christian and no works are NEEDED AFTER one already is a Christian and somehow they skirt around Eph 2:10; Matt 25, etc, that REQUIRE, MANDATE the Christian do good works.


We are created to do good works as well as BE in the family of God. :)
 
The bible speaks of those who turn from the faith. How could one turn from the faith if he never had faith to begin with? So it is possible for one to be in a saved position yet fall from it as Judas. Luke said Judas fell by transgression, how could one fall from transgression if he were always in transgression? One would first have to be in a state where he is not trangressing, a saved state, in order to fall from it. As an apostle Judas was in a saved state but fell from it by transgressing.


But besides this the question remains: can one be a Christian and/or remain a Christian without doing the good works per Eph 2:10?


Define good works.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame



JLB
 
Define good works.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame



JLB

Mt 25:35,36 lists some good works. Note that in this context in Mt 25 those that did good works are called 'righteous' and enter into eternal life, v46. Those that did not do good works, it was the same as not do good works towards Christ and are "cursed" and go away into everlasting fire, v41.
 
It is not my intention to twist what you are saying, I am simply asking can one be a Christian and/or remain a Christian and NOT do those good works.

You say a Christian would desire to do good works. But I am not interested in what a Christian desires for Eph 2:10 mandates, requires those good works be done by a Christian regardless of what a Christian desires. The fact God has mandated them makes those good works a necessary condition to salvation.
They are mandates of faith. The faith being the condition for salvation.

You seem to have a distorted works oriented view of salvation. It's like pushing on a string. You seem to think one can push on salvation by doing works, which is like pushing on a string to move something, instead of understanding it as faith pulling good works along behind it.


Maybe another way to ask my question; if faith only is how one BECOMES a Christian, is faith only all that is needed to REMAIN a Christian?
Yes, but a faith that finds it's expression in 'love your neighbor as yourself', and all the fruit of the Spirit.

"The only thing that counts (toward justification) is faith...

...faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6b NIV1984)


Faith is the ONLY thing that justifies (makes one righteous before God). The faith that does that (justifies a person) is the faith that can then be seen in the fruit of the Spirit and the deeds those qualities produce.


If one answered 'yes' to this question, then they are implying no works are needed to BECOME a Christian and no works are NEEDED AFTER one already is a Christian and somehow they skirt around Eph 2:10; Matt 25, etc, that REQUIRE, MANDATE the Christian do good works.
You misunderstand terribly. No one is saying 'faith, apart from works' means that the grace of God is a license to remain in your sin. What the argument means is faith--faith in the blood of Christ to forgive-- is the ONLY thing that can make a person righteous and cleansed of unrighteousness before God. No measure of work can do that. That is impossible. Utterly impossible. Only forgiveness of sin can remove sin guilt.


Sorry for jumping in on your conversation with WIP, but I just want to get right to the bottom line of this misunderstanding in the church today. Justification (being made righteous and cleansed of sin before God) can only happen through faith in Christ's blood to forgive sin, PERIOD. What you do from that point on shows if you are continuing in that justification. The person who purposely does not obey God after hearing, even receiving the gospel to some extent, is the one who has abandoned his faith and trust in the blood of Christ to forgive sin. That person is doomed. Their works of the flesh being the evidence of his/her rejection of faith in Christ to forgive sin.
 
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They are mandates of faith. The faith being the condition for salvation.

You seem to have a distorted works oriented view of salvation. It's like pushing on a string. You seem to think one can push on salvation by doing works, which is like pushing on a string to move something, instead of understanding it as faith pulling good works along behind it.

If works are a mandate of faith, then one cannot have a true, saving biblical faith without those works/mandates.

You say faith pulls the good works. My question has been this; can a Christian's faith save him if his faith is not pulling those good works of Eph 2:10?


No, meaning it takes faith + those good works = salvation.


Jethro Bodine said:
Yes, but a faith that finds it's expression in 'love your neighbor as yourself', and all the fruit of the Spirit.

"The only thing that counts (toward justification) is faith...

...faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6b NIV1984)

Faith is the ONLY thing that justifies (makes one righteous before God). The faith that does that (justifies a person) is the faith that can then be seen in the fruit of the Spirit and the deeds those qualities produce.


No verse say 'faith only' justifies. Faith and faith only are two completely different things.

If faith only justifies, then you are saying a Christian can have faith only less those good works of Eph 2:10 and still be justified. Yet it is not possible for one to even be a Christian without doing those good works.



Jethro Bodine said:
You misunderstand terribly. No one is saying 'faith, apart from works' means that the grace of God is a license to remain in your sin. What the argument means is faith--faith in the blood of Christ to forgive-- is the ONLY thing that can make a person righteous and cleansed of unrighteousness before God. No measure of work can do that. That is impossible. Utterly impossible. Only forgiveness of sin can remove sin guilt.


Sorry for jumping in on your conversation with WIP, but I just want to get right to the bottom line of this misunderstanding in the church today. Justification (being made righteous and cleansed of sin before God) can only happen through faith in Christ's blood to forgive sin, PERIOD. What you do from that point on shows if you are continuing in that justification. The person who purposely does not obey God after hearing, even receiving the gospel to some extent, is the one who has abandoned his faith and trust in the blood of Christ to forgive sin. That person is doomed. Their works of the flesh being the evidence of his/her rejection of faith in Christ to forgive sin.


My point in this thread is not about how one initially becomes saved/justified. It is about those who are ALREADY in a saved position as Christians.

Can one remain a Christian, remain justifed and NOT do those "before ordained" works of Eph 2:10? No, he cannot. Mt 25 and Jn 15 bear this out also.

Above you posted "The person who purposely does not obey God after hearing, even receiving the gospel to some extent, is the one who has abandoned his faith..."

So a Christian's faith MUST include those good works of Eph 2:10 for if not, he has "abandoned his faith" as you said yourself. So you are saying for a Christian to remain a Christian, to remain justified he must have a faith + works and not a faith without works (faith only).
 
This presumed conundrum will fall apart if anyone ever decides to define what those "before ordained" works of Eph 2:10 actually are.:D
 
Mt 25:35,36 lists some good works. Note that in this context in Mt 25 those that did good works are called 'righteous' and enter into eternal life, v46. Those that did not do good works, it was the same as not do good works towards Christ and are "cursed" and go away into everlasting fire, v41.


You listed a scripture "tag" and then quoted a verse not in the tag, then stated your opinion. I was hoping for better.


how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. Acts 10:38

Jesus said the works that I do you shall do also.


JLB
 

Well, it's a great passage in Ephesians 2.

But it's stretching it by far to make the idea of cleansing in the context of Ephesians 5 unique to a supposed operation of water baptism, if this is what you are really suggesting.



Hi farouk,

Paul wrote,

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (Eph 5:25-26 KJV)

To sanctify means to set apart. Baptism sets the Christian apart as circumcision set the Jews apart. Baptism is also for the remission of sins. So here we have sanctifying and cleansing. Then he writes what literally translates, with the bath of water in the word. As I said in the other post, the Greek word translated word is Rhema and it means the spoken word or a command. Here is the definition,

4487 ῥῆμα rhema {hray'-mah}
Meaning: 1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word 1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning 1b) speech, discourse 1b1) what one has said 1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words) 1c1) an utterance 1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c2a) concerning some occurrence 2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of 2a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration 2b) so far as it is a matter of command 2c) a matter of dispute, case at law

When Jesus sent out the apostles He gave them a command, He told them to go and make disciples, teaching them all He had commanded and baptizing them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is the washing of water in the command. It's the only washing that Christians are commanded to do.

This is agreement with Paul's other statement in Titus 3:5,

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

Washing in this verse is the same Greek word in Ephesians 5, it is "Loutron", it means "bath". Paul is saying that God saved them through the bath or regeneration (water baptism) and renewing of the Holy Spirit. This is very same thing Jesus said in John 3, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God.
 
How does coming to Christ not involve a work, doing something?

Jesus said, 'why call ye Me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say?'

This tells me one has to first do works, do the things Christ said BEFORE one can even call Jesus their Lord.

You say one does works AFTER they are initially saved. Can one NOT ever do those works after they are initially saved yet remain saved?


He said, why do you call me Lord and not do the things I say. I think Jesus is just giving examples, however, if He is speaking of people directly, He's addressing people who are already calling Him lord. He's seen by their actions that they are not acting like they accept that He really is their Lord. I don't think He's implying that on must first do deeds before they can approach Him.
 
Hi farouk,

Paul wrote,

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,(Eph 5:25-26 KJV)

To sanctify means to set apart. Baptism sets the Christian apart as circumcision set the Jews apart. Baptism is also for the remission of sins. So here we have sanctifying and cleansing. Then he writes what literally translates, with the bath of water in the word. As I said in the other post, the Greek word translated word is Rhema and it means the spoken word or a command. Here is the definition,

4487 ῥῆμα rhema {hray'-mah}
Meaning: 1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word 1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning 1b) speech, discourse 1b1) what one has said 1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words) 1c1) an utterance 1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c2a) concerning some occurrence 2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of 2a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration 2b) so far as it is a matter of command 2c) a matter of dispute, case at law

When Jesus sent out the apostles He gave them a command, He told them to go and make disciples, teaching them all He had commanded and baptizing them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is the washing of water in the command. It's the only washing that Christians are commanded to do.

This is agreement with Paul's other statement in Titus 3:5,

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Tit 3:4-5 KJV)

Washing in this verse is the same Greek word in Ephesians 5, it is "Loutron", it means "bath". Paul is saying that God saved them through the bath or regeneration (water baptism) and renewing of the Holy Spirit. This is very same thing Jesus said in John 3, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God.

B:

The 'washing of regeneration' in Titus does not mean that water baptism effects spiritual cleansing.

Water baptism is a symbol for those who believe.

Baptismal regeneration isn't Biblical.
 
B:

The 'washing of regeneration' in Titus does not mean that water baptism effects spiritual cleansing.

Water baptism is a symbol for those who believe.

Baptismal regeneration isn't Biblical.

Good word!



Baptism is about death, not regeneration or cleansing.


Ephesians 5:26


that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

This is a reference to the old testament laver. The laver was lined with brass mirrors and filled with water. The priest would look into the laver and see his reflection, where he needed cleansing, and wash with the water in the laver before attending to the duties of the tabernacle.

This was a type for us to learn from today.
 

Good word!



Baptism is about death, not regeneration or cleansing.


Ephesians 5:26


that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

This is a reference to the old testament laver. The laver was lined with brass mirrors and filled with water. The priest would look into the laver and see his reflection, where he needed cleansing, and wash with the water in the laver before attending to the duties of the tabernacle.

This was a type for us to learn from today.

JLB:

Your explanation makes a lot of sense.

The inward and spiritual cleansing by faith, preceeds the use of the symbol of baptism.
 

The 'washing of regeneration' in Titus does not mean that water baptism effects spiritual cleansing.

Water baptism is a symbol for those who believe.

Baptismal regeneration isn't Biblical.


Well, we have you opinion and that of Jesus and the aposltes. Jesus said, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Paul speaking of Christian said, God saved us through the bath of regeneration and the arenewing of the Holy Spirit.

This was also the understanding of those who were taught by the apostles.

Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John

Ignatius appeals to Rom. 6:5"Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection." (Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians, II)

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Barnabas 70-130
Further, what says He? “And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever.†(Ezek. 47:12) This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit. “And whosoever shall eat of these shall live for ever,â€


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2

Hermas 150
Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For,†he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life.
The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Irenaeus 180
Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John.

In refuting the Gnostics,

And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Irenaeus 180
“And dipped himself,†says [the Scripture], “seven times in Jordan.†(2 Ki. 5:14) It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.†(John 3:5)

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2

Clement of Alexandria 195
Then within the same period John prophesied till the baptism of salvation; and after the birth of Christ, Anna and Simeon.


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Tertullian 195
Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Tertullian 195
But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ Jesus Christ,
are born in water,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Tertullian 195
When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none†(chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life†(John 3:5, not fully given)), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9

Origen 228
“by the laver of regeneration,†(Titus 3:5) through which they were born “as new-born babes,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6

Pamohilius 309
Of the divine descent of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost which lighted on them who believed. In this we have also the instruction delivered by Peter, and * passages from the prophets on the subject, and * on the passion and resurrection and assumption of Christ, and the gift of the Holy Ghost; also * of the faith of those present, and their salvation by baptism; and, further,* of the unity of spirit pervading the believers and promoting the common good, and of the addition made to their number.


These writings span the time from the apostles with Ignatius to the Council of Nicaea. They are all pretty much in agreement that water baptism is necessary for salvation. However, is this what the Scriptures teach? Because it doesn't matter one bit if they all agree if the Scriptures do not teach this. So, we need to look and see if the Scriptures teach that water baptism is necessary. There are several to consider, Titus 3:5 says that God saved us through the "Bath" of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:4-5 ( KJV ) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The Greek word translated "Washing" Is "Loutron" and means a bath. Paul is saying that God saved us through a bath. The only bath that I am aware of in Christianity is water baptism. Jesus said 'unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of heaven'. Here we have Paul basically saying the same thing with different words, He (God) saved us with the bath of regeneration (water baptism) and the renewing of hte Holy Spirit (Spiritual baptism). We also see that it was at Jesus' baptism that the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

Paul also speaks of this in Romans 6,

Romans 6:3-5 ( KJV )
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

This passage is claimed by many to be speaking of Spiritual baptism, however, this simply is not possible. One reason is that the grammar does not allow such an interpretation. Paul says that this baptism makes us partakers of the resurrection, so we need to make sure we understand what it is. The Greek word that is translated "Likeness" in this passage is the Greek word, "Homoioma". It means a representation or an image.

G3667
μοίωμα
homoiōma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which has been made after the likeness of something1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation1b
) likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

A representation or image is something that can been with the eye. This baptism that Paul is speaking of is a visible baptism, it is am image or representation of something. It is a visible representation of Spiritual baptism as we saw with Jesus baptism. He received the Spirit upon coming out of the waters of baptism.

There is another reason this passage cannot be speaking of Spiritual baptism. Paul said that the baptism in Romans 6 is a representation or an image. A representation or image is not the original, for instance, when one goes to the store and buys a picture of the Mona Lisa, they are not buying the original, only a representation or image of the original. If this baptism in Romans 6 was a Spiritual baptism, what is it a representation of? The original is not a representation of a copy. If union with the Holy Spirit is essential for the Christian to have life it must be the original, not the copy. Therefore there is no way that this passage can be speaking of Spiritual baptism simply because Paul said it is the representation of the original

This fits nicely with what Peter said,

1 Peter 3:18-21 ( KJV )
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Peter equates Noah and the eight souls being saved in the Ark with baptism saving the Christian. He connects the baptism with water to show that it is water baptism, yet he says that it is not the water that actually saves. He says that it is the answer of a good conscience towards God. The Christian with a good conscience goes into the waters of baptism and in that God gives an answer. It is the answer that saves but it is going into the water is the question. This fits nicely with what Paul has stated, 'He (God) saved us through the bath of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

There is also, Ephesians 5

Ephesians 5:23-27 ( KJV )
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Paul says that Christ may sanctify and cleanse the Church with the "Washing of Water" by the word. Many think that "The word" in this passage is Christ, however, Paul did not use the word "Logos" he use the word "rhema" which means,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G4487
ῥῆμα rhēma Thayer Definition: 1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word 1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning 1b) speech, discourse 1b1) what one has said 1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words) 1c1) an utterance 1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c2a) concerning some occurrence 2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of 2a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration 2b) so far as it is a matter of command 2c) a matter of dispute, case at law

Basically the word means an utterance, a spoken word, a command. What command was given in the Christian faith regarding washing or a bath? Mathew elaborates for us.

Matthew 28:19-20 ( KJV )
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Here is the "Washing of water with by the word". Also the Greek word translated by is the word "en" which is better translated "in" or "with". In this case with is the better translation.

I think it can be seen that there is much to what the Ante-Nicene Fathers has said about the importance of baptism. Their claims can be supported in Scripture.


 
Good word!


Baptism is about death, not regeneration or cleansing.


Ephesians 5:26

that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

This is a reference to the old testament laver. The laver was lined with brass mirrors and filled with water. The priest would look into the laver and see his reflection, where he needed cleansing, and wash with the water in the laver before attending to the duties of the tabernacle.

This was a type for us to learn from today.

Did the priests actually wash?
 
Well, we have you opinion and that of Jesus and the aposltes. Jesus said, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Paul speaking of Christian said, God saved us through the bath of regeneration and the arenewing of the Holy Spirit.

This was also the understanding of those who were taught by the apostles.

Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John

Ignatius appeals to Rom. 6:5"Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection." (Ignatius, Epistle to the Trallians, II)

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Barnabas 70-130
Further, what says He? “And there was a river flowing on the right, and from it arose beautiful trees; and whosoever shall eat of them shall live for ever.†(Ezek. 47:12) This meaneth, that we indeed descend into the water full of sins and defilement, but come up, bearing fruit in our heart, having the fear [of God] and trust in Jesus in our spirit. “And whosoever shall eat of these shall live for ever,â€


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2

Hermas 150
Accordingly, those also who fell asleep received the seal of the Son of God. For,†he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life.
The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Irenaeus 180
Disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John.

In refuting the Gnostics,

And when we come to refute them, we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1

Irenaeus 180
“And dipped himself,†says [the Scripture], “seven times in Jordan.†(2 Ki. 5:14) It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: “Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.†(John 3:5)

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2

Clement of Alexandria 195
Then within the same period John prophesied till the baptism of salvation; and after the birth of Christ, Anna and Simeon.


The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Tertullian 195
Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life!

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Tertullian 195
But we, little fishes, after the example of our ΙΧΘΥΣ Jesus Christ,
are born in water,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Tertullian 195
When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none†(chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life†(John 3:5, not fully given)), there arise immediately scrupulous, nay rather audacious, doubts on the part of some,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 9

Origen 228
“by the laver of regeneration,†(Titus 3:5) through which they were born “as new-born babes,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 6

Pamohilius 309
Of the divine descent of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost which lighted on them who believed. In this we have also the instruction delivered by Peter, and * passages from the prophets on the subject, and * on the passion and resurrection and assumption of Christ, and the gift of the Holy Ghost; also * of the faith of those present, and their salvation by baptism; and, further,* of the unity of spirit pervading the believers and promoting the common good, and of the addition made to their number.


These writings span the time from the apostles with Ignatius to the Council of Nicaea. They are all pretty much in agreement that water baptism is necessary for salvation. However, is this what the Scriptures teach? Because it doesn't matter one bit if they all agree if the Scriptures do not teach this. So, we need to look and see if the Scriptures teach that water baptism is necessary. There are several to consider, Titus 3:5 says that God saved us through the "Bath" of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:4-5 ( KJV ) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The Greek word translated "Washing" Is "Loutron" and means a bath. Paul is saying that God saved us through a bath. The only bath that I am aware of in Christianity is water baptism. Jesus said 'unless one is born of water and Spirit he cannot see the kingdom of heaven'. Here we have Paul basically saying the same thing with different words, He (God) saved us with the bath of regeneration (water baptism) and the renewing of hte Holy Spirit (Spiritual baptism). We also see that it was at Jesus' baptism that the Holy Spirit descended upon Him.

Paul also speaks of this in Romans 6,

Romans 6:3-5 ( KJV )
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

This passage is claimed by many to be speaking of Spiritual baptism, however, this simply is not possible. One reason is that the grammar does not allow such an interpretation. Paul says that this baptism makes us partakers of the resurrection, so we need to make sure we understand what it is. The Greek word that is translated "Likeness" in this passage is the Greek word, "Homoioma". It means a representation or an image.

G3667
μοίωμα
homoiōma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which has been made after the likeness of something1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation1b
) likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

A representation or image is something that can been with the eye. This baptism that Paul is speaking of is a visible baptism, it is am image or representation of something. It is a visible representation of Spiritual baptism as we saw with Jesus baptism. He received the Spirit upon coming out of the waters of baptism.

There is another reason this passage cannot be speaking of Spiritual baptism. Paul said that the baptism in Romans 6 is a representation or an image. A representation or image is not the original, for instance, when one goes to the store and buys a picture of the Mona Lisa, they are not buying the original, only a representation or image of the original. If this baptism in Romans 6 was a Spiritual baptism, what is it a representation of? The original is not a representation of a copy. If union with the Holy Spirit is essential for the Christian to have life it must be the original, not the copy. Therefore there is no way that this passage can be speaking of Spiritual baptism simply because Paul said it is the representation of the original

This fits nicely with what Peter said,

1 Peter 3:18-21 ( KJV )
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Peter equates Noah and the eight souls being saved in the Ark with baptism saving the Christian. He connects the baptism with water to show that it is water baptism, yet he says that it is not the water that actually saves. He says that it is the answer of a good conscience towards God. The Christian with a good conscience goes into the waters of baptism and in that God gives an answer. It is the answer that saves but it is going into the water is the question. This fits nicely with what Paul has stated, 'He (God) saved us through the bath of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

There is also, Ephesians 5

Ephesians 5:23-27 ( KJV )
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Paul says that Christ may sanctify and cleanse the Church with the "Washing of Water" by the word. Many think that "The word" in this passage is Christ, however, Paul did not use the word "Logos" he use the word "rhema" which means,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G4487
ῥῆμα rhēma Thayer Definition: 1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word 1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning 1b) speech, discourse 1b1) what one has said 1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words) 1c1) an utterance 1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c2a) concerning some occurrence 2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of 2a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration 2b) so far as it is a matter of command 2c) a matter of dispute, case at law

Basically the word means an utterance, a spoken word, a command. What command was given in the Christian faith regarding washing or a bath? Mathew elaborates for us.

Matthew 28:19-20 ( KJV )
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Here is the "Washing of water with by the word". Also the Greek word translated by is the word "en" which is better translated "in" or "with". In this case with is the better translation.

I think it can be seen that there is much to what the Ante-Nicene Fathers has said about the importance of baptism. Their claims can be supported in Scripture.



B:

Yes, and look at all the church tradition that your are quoting from.

In John 3 the Lord Jesus speaks of the new birth as the movement of the Spirit which cannot be seen. It's not as if a so called priest by a gesture with water can somehow command it to happen.
 
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