Erroneous additons to the Word of God !

[glorydaz]

You've managed to "explain away" Luke 16, the saints being raised at Christ's resurrection, Christ's descent into Hades, the thief on the cross going to Paradise, Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, souls "departing" from the body, souls crying out in Rev. and probably a few more that have slipped my mind. As long as you're comfortable tossing out scripture, there is no point in having discussions with you, is there? ;)

Actually, in several of those, he doesn't even comment on. How many times has 1 Peter 3 been repeated here, by at least three different people,(and me, several times) - and how many comments has he posted on it? I haven't seen any yet, maybe I just missed it...?

The "explaining away" of Luke 16 wasn't even that. How does a dead soul respond, as the rich man??? No comment there, just a wish and a prayer that no one would figure out his silly sidestep of an obvious thing - something dead cannot respond or hope or plead.

Jesus says we need not be fearful of the soul dying upon ordinary death - only the "ONE" in heaven can do that...

We are dealing with someone who refuses to admit the "greatest of all lies" is just more truth. Who wants to admit such a gaffe?

Regards

I agree...he hasn't addressed most of what we've brought up, so "explaining away" was giving him too much credit. :biglaugh

I would love to have them addressed.
Probably just more of those pesky "additions" of men.

Soul death...sounds even worse than soul sleep to me.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi glorydaz

A discussion or a debate, either one is just fine with me. But if your trying to say that you need to convert me to your way of thinking. Well that is another issue altogether !

Some things within scripture have been added by man, while others are just totally misunderstood. I am dealing with both within this thread.

The things that are misunderstood, would be like your belief that your soul goes to heaven when you die. I know you have brought certain scriptures that you feel that back up your stance . But I also refuted them already. That is, I used scripture to explain them away.

If you feel that there is nothing more to add or explain, then this is your choice. But it is also your choice if you feel you need to explain something further. I am still waiting for you to explain when you die, that your soul goes to heaven. I know the Word talks about the spirit of man going back to God, and we have discussed this already. But you still have not shown any scripture that shows your soul all by itself , going to heaven without a body and just your soul being in heaven. Also you have constantly used the word "paradise" in the wrong way. Again, you assume we are to just take your word for it, that paradise is the grave. Again you have not shown any scirptural references that can substanciate this false belief. < Maybe , just maybe you would like to tackle this one first ?

I don't expect, or care, whether I convince you of anything. I'm telling you what I, and many other Christians, see from the Word of God. It's kind of hard to discuss something with you when you continue to make statements that claim I'm saying things I have never said...nor do I believe. This for instance...

But you still have not shown any scripture that shows your soul all by itself , going to heaven without a body and just your soul being in heaven.

The soul doesn't go anywhere by itself. It leaves the body at death...departs.
The spirit and soul go to be with the Lord to wait for the resurrection of the body.
So before we talk about what that place of waiting is called, the life or death of the soul must be determined. You admit it's the soul that needs to be saved because it's the soul that sins. Correct?

The perfect example is Luke 16, but you claim it's a parable even though it is like no other parable Jesus gave...he never gave names to people in parables, and he would be lying and misleading to claim people could converse across the divide between where the righteous and unrighteous wait.

You seem to avoid addressing Moses...who was died and buried and yet appeared and spoke. He stands there in some form, talking to Jesus, long before the resurrection on the Last Day. Either Moses’ body was raised early, which is not supported by scripture, or his soul appeared in visible form on the Mount of Transfiguration.

You seem to ignore this, as well....We see John, "caught up", somewhere....I believe that's the same place the souls of believers wait until the resurrection. He sees a vision of the souls of martyred Christians under the altar. The resurrection hasn't happened yet, so these souls are waiting.

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

You also don't like to talk about Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
ABSENT...how can one be absent with the body and yet be PRESENT with the Lord.
How can it be FAR BETTER if we're lying dead in a grave knowing nothing? The body knows nothing, but the soul (who we are as a person) is in a far better place.

So, instead of telling me I'm "misunderstanding"...address the issue and stop pontificating. ;)

Hi glorydaz:

Don't be mislead, you still need to address how the sheol is called paradise. < I believe you are only assuming this without any biblical back up.

Okay, that said.

To start out with, your last comment I will deal with first. You said that I do not like to talk about Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. However, this is not true, I did address this thouroughly. I explained to you that this verse was a spiritual comment and must be understood in its spiritual light. The body here is talking not about your body, it is talking about the body of Christ. < Not only did I address this, but you decided not to comment back upon this explanation I have already given to you previously ! Agreed ? I believe the reason you didn't comment back, and I could be wrong here, but the reason is that you just do not believe this, and decided to ignore it. Look, all the OT people are dead, and none of them have souls with the Lord, for they are all dead. And Peter reminded on the day of pentecost, that the grave of David is still with us. I have provied many scriptures that show that the body and soul go to the grave. And that it is the soul that needs saving, not the body. If the soul is with the Lord upon one's death, then the sould does not need saving ! Which is totally against what scripture tells us !

And just because Jesus is the first fruit from the dead, does not mean that all souls got up and went to be with the Lord. There are many reasons that this would not fit within scripture . The church is the first in order to be raised from the dead. The soul needs salvation, not the body. So the soul is what is in jeopardy. If the soul goes to be with the Lord, it then would not be in jeopardy, would it ? A resurrection is based upon the soul and if it is saved or not. And there needs to be the "order" by which any resurrection takes place, correct ? I Corinth. 15:23 gives us that "order". None of the OT saints are a part of the body of Christ, none ! But if you believe differently, then provide scripture to the contrary.

Lets deal next with one being caught up to the third heaven. < II Corinth. 12:2 and then Paul mentions in verse 4 how one was caught up into paradise. And he heard unspeakable words. < Both of these records are revealings or revelations. Just like John who wrote the book of Revelation. Much is mentioned in the book of Rev. about the third heaven and paradise. Both of which are future !

There will be a day that the future will no longer be the future, but for now it is still future.

Now lets deal with the appearing of Moses in the gospels. This is called the mount of transfiguration and is recorded in Matt. 17:1 - 7. This event is an example of the things that you think you see, are not exactly what you think you have seen. Moses and Elias (Elijah) were not there. If you read verses 9 thru 12 . Elijah who was that great Prophet shall first come. But Jesus was speaking of himself. And the same with Moses, as both Moses and Elijah their bodies were never found, nor could any man find their bodies. The same is with Jesus Christ who was raised from the dead and his tomb was empty, they could not find his body, nor did they know what had happened to his body.

After this explanation from Jesus to his disciples (those three) they understood that he was speaking of John the batpist - verse 14. This shows that they still didn't understand as to whom this vision was about. Even though Jesus spoke of himself, the Son of man shall suffer of them. Moses and Elias (Elijah) was not there . This was a vision unto them . Jesus within this vision on the mount, his face did shine, as did Moses when he came off of the mountain.

I will reiterate that it is the soul that need salvation , yes.

I noticed that you now have the spirit and the soul going somewhere, which you said you would explain, eventually, sooner than later I pray !

I have given numerous scripture as to where the soul goes after you die. And I also mentioned that in the book of James 1:21 and James 5:20 it is the soul that needs saving.

And because God is a God that changes not. When you die your body and soul go to the grave when you die ! And nowhere else !

Unless you can show me scripture that will clearly explain that your spirit and soul go to be with the Lord. And that this so called place you mentioned, is paradise.

Your turn

Bless - MM

 

[glorydaz]

To start out with, your last comment I will deal with first. You said that I do not like to talk about Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. However, this is not true, I did address this thouroughly. I explained to you that this verse was a spiritual comment and must be understood in its spiritual light. The body here is talking not about your body, it is talking about the body of Christ. < Not only did I address this, but you decided not to comment back upon this explanation I have already given to you previously ! Agreed ?

Okay, let's deal with this first. Perhaps you should tell me what you think the soul is....is it just the breath of life as the JW's believe?

You claim this is speaking of the body of Christ. The explanation you provided before was so off the wall, I didn't know exactly what to reply. I have never in my life heard this is speaking of the body of Christ. So let's just get to the bottom of one thing at a time.

If our "earthly house" (body) were dissolved, we have a house in heaven....desiring to be clothed with our house in heaven. What will be clothed? Certainly not our body which will be in the grave.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

So you're claiming while we are at home in this body (of Christ), we are absent from Christ.
Willing rather to be absent from the body (of Christ) and be present with Christ. Whether present (from His body) or absent (from His body) we may be accepted.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

 

[glorydaz]

The soul needs salvation, not the body. So the soul is what is in jeopardy. If the soul goes to be with the Lord, it then would not be in jeopardy, would it ? A resurrection is based upon the soul and if it is saved or not. And there needs to be the "order" by which any resurrection takes place, correct ? I Corinth. 15:23 gives us that "order".

Our soul is only in "jeopardy" here on this earth.
We have this time on earth to choose life through Christ.
Once we die, our fate is settled. We belong to the Lord or we don't.
Are you claiming the Lord doesn't know until the resurrection whether we're saved or not???????

This is talking about the resurrection of our bodies.
Death is called sleep all throughout the Bible.
Our outer shell is what goes to the grave...to be raised later.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is speaking of our body....and our glorified body at the resurrection.
It doesn't even come close to saying our souls die when our body dies.

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

How can death be gain if our soul dies with our body?
Christ lives IN me, and has promised to never leave nor forsake me.
How then can my soul die and be left in the grave?

According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

 

[Mysteryman]

To start out with, your last comment I will deal with first. You said that I do not like to talk about Paul saying to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. However, this is not true, I did address this thouroughly. I explained to you that this verse was a spiritual comment and must be understood in its spiritual light. The body here is talking not about your body, it is talking about the body of Christ. < Not only did I address this, but you decided not to comment back upon this explanation I have already given to you previously ! Agreed ?

Okay, let's deal with this first. Perhaps you should tell me what you think the soul is....is it just the breath of life as the JW's believe?

You claim this is speaking of the body of Christ. The explanation you provided before was so off the wall, I didn't know exactly what to reply. I have never in my life heard this is speaking of the body of Christ. So let's just get to the bottom of one thing at a time.

If our "earthly house" (body) were dissolved, we have a house in heaven....desiring to be clothed with our house in heaven. What will be clothed? Certainly not our body which will be in the grave.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

So you're claiming while we are at home in this body (of Christ), we are absent from Christ.
Willing rather to be absent from the body (of Christ) and be present with Christ. Whether present (from His body) or absent (from His body) we may be accepted.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Hi glorydaz

Well, this is the crux of our conversation then. One , that is me, is speaking spiritually, and you are reading from your carnal mind. Please , if you take offense to this , this will hinder our conversation with one another.

Even though you have never heard of this understanding from scripture. This does not mean that what I have explained to you is in some way redundant or subvertive in some way.

The head Christ is not here upon this earth, but his body is. The body of Christ is here and has not as of yet come together with the head. The body of Christ is as Mary was, a virgin = pure. She is with child, and the body of Christ is with children of the Lord. Pregnant is a better way of explaining it. But to be absent from the body, the body of Christ is to be present with the Lord. This means to be born again literally in the presence with the Lord. Which will happen upon the gathering up of the saints. We then will become born again of Spirit. We now walk in the Spirit, with the Spirit of his Son in our hearts, Christ in us. Our clothing on, means that we will have a body fashioned liken unto his body when we meet the Lord in the air, in the clouds.

I don't care what JW's think. I only care what the Word tells us, so let us get this straight right off the bat, okay ?

Our soul is breath life, it is also our memory. Breath life is what God breathed into man and made him a living soul. Notice that it says a "living soul". Adam had life eternal, if he would have just obeyed God. But we know he didn't, and all of mankind now dies because of the sin of Adam. This means that all of mankind looses their soul . Death is loosing your breath life, and with it you also loose your memory. Because the Word tells us that in the grave we have no memory. Our souls do not go anywhere, it dies when the body dies. It is the soul that needs redemption. So that one can be raised from death unto life. To be redeemed is to be purchased. We were purchased by the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes , shall not perish, but have everlasting life. The soul is what perishes with the body in the grave. It is the soul that needs redemption.

Any questions ?

 

[francisdesales]

Lets address your comment about "tradition" of the past 2000 years. I am sure you must be speaking of the traditions of men over the past 2000 years, because tradtions have nothing to do with scriptural truth !

A "tradition of men" is not to be confused with an Apostolic Tradition, one such as St. Paul told Christians to CONTINUE TO HOLD. Do you see a Biblical warrant for this command to have ended or been abrogated/swallowed up by written Traditions??? Or is this another of your "greatest lies"?

The Church has ALWAYS believed that the soul does not die literally, and since the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth, it would be a tremendous issue with your lack of trust in the Holy Spirit's ability to prevent major error (the "greatest lie", for heaven's sake!) such as this from seeping into the Church, being a dogmatic issue that effects salvation.

Take a picture of a soul ? Is this just a way that you believe to be stand up comic ? Because it was indeed funny . :D

Thanks, it's Friday and these arguments sometimes get to stuffy and heated... If you need to scan that picture of the soul, I think Kinko's might be able to help.

Do you even know what a soul is ? Trust me, I am curious . :help

I've defined it already for you. See what a wonderful guy I am? :biglaugh

It's the part of humanity that is able to continue to speak, think and plead with God in heaven before the body is raised, thus, it cannot die literally, unless God wills it to be so...

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Lets address your comment about "tradition" of the past 2000 years. I am sure you must be speaking of the traditions of men over the past 2000 years, because tradtions have nothing to do with scriptural truth !

A "tradition of men" is not to be confused with an Apostolic Tradition, one such as St. Paul told Christians to CONTINUE TO HOLD. Do you see a Biblical warrant for this command to have ended or been abrogated/swallowed up by written Traditions??? Or is this another of your "greatest lies"?

The Church has ALWAYS believed that the soul does not die literally, and since the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth, it would be a tremendous issue with your lack of trust in the Holy Spirit's ability to prevent major error (the "greatest lie", for heaven's sake!) such as this from seeping into the Church, being a dogmatic issue that effects salvation.

Take a picture of a soul ? Is this just a way that you believe to be stand up comic ? Because it was indeed funny . :D

Thanks, it's Friday and these arguments sometimes get to stuffy and heated... If you need to scan that picture of the soul, I think Kinko's might be able to help.

Do you even know what a soul is ? Trust me, I am curious . :help

I've defined it already for you. See what a wonderful guy I am? :biglaugh

It's the part of humanity that is able to continue to speak, think and plead with God in heaven before the body is raised, thus, it cannot die literally, unless God wills it to be so...

Regards

Hi francis

I am sure you are talking about your church, and not "The" church when you say what you are claiming !

The Church, the true Church spoken about within scripture, is to cling to the truth, and not the traditions of men.

The true Church believes in the hope. The hope is based upon our resurrection that is promised within the church espistles. The true church believes what the scriptures tell us. That when we die, we die both body and soul. And that it is the soul that needs redemption. Because of the sin of one, the soul dies. And I have provided more than enough scripture which proves this to be true.

As far as lies go. Please check yours at the door please !

The greatest lie in the world, is that 'ye shall not surely die" !

IN Christ - MM

 

[francisdesales]

Hi francis

I am sure you are talking about your church, and not "The" church when you say what you are claiming !

The Church, the true Church spoken about within scripture, is to cling to the truth, and not the traditions of men.

The true Church believes in the hope. The hope is based upon our resurrection that is promised within the church espistles. The true church believes what the scriptures tell us. That when we die, we die both body and soul. And that it is the soul that needs redemption. Because of the sin of one, the soul dies. And I have provided more than enough scripture which proves this to be true.

As far as lies go. Please check yours at the door please !

The greatest lie in the world, is that 'ye shall not surely die" !

Your're rambling again. Have you defined what a "tradition of man" is? Nope. Just automatically presume that I believe in them without defining them. Just like not defining what the difference between a soul and a spirit.

The "greatest lie"? I can think of a number of things than that supposed lie that are worse. Does knowing this "lie" keep us out of heaven and united with Christ?

I thought not....

Don't you think Jesus would have absolutely defined this more specifically, IF that was the greatest of lies? Didn't Jesus come to bring us the truth and set us free? Yet, nothing about this "lie"???

Where do you get this stuff from???

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi francis

I am sure you are talking about your church, and not "The" church when you say what you are claiming !

The Church, the true Church spoken about within scripture, is to cling to the truth, and not the traditions of men.

The true Church believes in the hope. The hope is based upon our resurrection that is promised within the church espistles. The true church believes what the scriptures tell us. That when we die, we die both body and soul. And that it is the soul that needs redemption. Because of the sin of one, the soul dies. And I have provided more than enough scripture which proves this to be true.

As far as lies go. Please check yours at the door please !

The greatest lie in the world, is that 'ye shall not surely die" !

Your're rambling again. Have you defined what a "tradition of man" is? Nope. Just automatically presume that I believe in them without defining them. Just like not defining what the difference between a soul and a spirit.

The "greatest lie"? I can think of a number of things than that supposed lie that are worse. Does knowing this "lie" keep us out of heaven and united with Christ?

I thought not....

Don't you think Jesus would have absolutely defined this more specifically, IF that was the greatest of lies? Didn't Jesus come to bring us the truth and set us free? Yet, nothing about this "lie"???

Where do you get this stuff from???

Hi francis

Why not provide a lie that is greater then ?

I say that the greatest lie in the world , which was spoken by the author of all lies, is that "ye shall not surely die".

This lie leads to all of mankind in their continuance to sin. Even pagans believe that even in death, they don't really die. Many religions within the world believe the exact same thing. Even some very radical religous groups that we are dealing with today believe this lie.

Now the true church is catching up to the world's way of thinking. The church is falling away from this truth. This is why the church is starting to be so acceptable to all the other lies of the world. Even homosexuality is now being allowed into the church, and there are even bishops in certain denominations that are openly gay, and they are being accepted as their minister of christianity. This is because they are believing this lie, that 'ye shall not surely die" ! Christianity is becoming a false religion based upon so many other lies. True Christianity will not bend to the lies. Even if only a few individuals in the church believe the truth. It is not about denominational sects and their individual beliefs anymore. It is about holding to the truth.

There are those within the church that now say, when you die, you don't really die, but go on to a better place. All these lies are based upon the greatest lie ever told.

When you die, your soul goes to the grave with you. Redemption was based upon a price paid for the sin of Adam. And even though Christians believe that they have been redeemed. Which is not the issue. They now believe the greatest lie that when you die, you don't really die.

I do not know what the percentages are. But the percentage is high within the Christian community that when you die you go straight to heaven to be with the Lord.

Enough said for now. Can you share your greater lies, that you assume are greater than the greatest lie ever told ?

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz

Well, this is the crux of our conversation then. One , that is me, is speaking spiritually, and you are reading from your carnal mind. Please , if you take offense to this , this will hinder our conversation with one another.

I'll just ignore your calling me carnal.... :nag

The head Christ is not here upon this earth, but his body is. The body of Christ is here and has not as of yet come together with the head. The body of Christ is as Mary was, a virgin = pure. She is with child, and the body of Christ is with children of the Lord. Pregnant is a better way of explaining it. But to be absent from the body, the body of Christ is to be present with the Lord. This means to be born again literally in the presence with the Lord. Which will happen upon the gathering up of the saints. We then will become born again of Spirit. We now walk in the Spirit, with the Spirit of his Son in our hearts, Christ in us. Our clothing on, means that we will have a body fashioned liken unto his body when we meet the Lord in the air, in the clouds.

No, we don't have to wait to be born again until we're gathered.
If we wait for that, we won't be "gathered".
We must be born again while we are in this life.

I don't care what JW's think. I only care what the Word tells us, so let us get this straight right off the bat, okay ?

You really should care.

Our soul is breath life, it is also our memory. Breath life is what God breathed into man and made him a living soul. Notice that it says a "living soul". Adam had life eternal, if he would have just obeyed God. But we know he didn't, and all of mankind now dies because of the sin of Adam. This means that all of mankind looses their soul . Death is loosing your breath life, and with it you also loose your memory. Because the Word tells us that in the grave we have no memory. Our souls do not go anywhere, it dies when the body dies. It is the soul that needs redemption. So that one can be raised from death unto life. To be redeemed is to be purchased. We were purchased by the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes , shall not perish, but have everlasting life. The soul is what perishes with the body in the grave. It is the soul that needs redemption.

The soul is not the breath..the breath is the spirit.
God breathed spirit into a body, and it became a living soul.

The soul of man is his will, mind, and emotions. The soul is what makes us who we are as individuals.
The body in the grave is simply our tent. The soul departs the body at death....

We await the redemption of our body...not our soul and body.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The atonement is for our soul.

We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.

Our body is neutral...it cannot be renewed until it dies (or is changed at the Lord's coming).
It's man's soul that is "self". Our minds can be renewed...our emotions and our will can be brought under submission to show forth the glory of God.

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The flesh and the body is consumed, but the soul stays with the spirit.
You can't separate who we are as a person from the spirit God has quickened with new birth.
That's what being born again is all about...new creatures who will recieve new bodies when our Lord returns.

And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed,

 

[glorydaz]

The hope is based upon our resurrection that is promised within the church espistles. The true church believes what the scriptures tell us. That when we die, we die both body and soul. And that it is the soul that needs redemption. Because of the sin of one, the soul dies. And I have provided more than enough scripture which proves this to be true.

Uh...and because of Christ we live. NOW.

This is where you err. You see our redemption as happening when our body is resurrected.
We have been bought with a price.... :yes

My soul has been redeemed...only my body awaits redemption.

Galatians 3:13...Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 4:5....To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Titus 2:14....Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

1 Peter 1:18....Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

Do you really believe a person isn't born again until he gets a new body when Christ returns?

 

[glorydaz]

Hi francis

I am sure you are talking about your church, and not "The" church when you say what you are claiming !

The Church, the true Church spoken about within scripture, is to cling to the truth, and not the traditions of men.

The true Church believes in the hope. The hope is based upon our resurrection that is promised within the church espistles. The true church believes what the scriptures tell us. That when we die, we die both body and soul. And that it is the soul that needs redemption. Because of the sin of one, the soul dies. And I have provided more than enough scripture which proves this to be true.

As far as lies go. Please check yours at the door please !

The greatest lie in the world, is that 'ye shall not surely die" !

Your're rambling again. Have you defined what a "tradition of man" is? Nope. Just automatically presume that I believe in them without defining them. Just like not defining what the difference between a soul and a spirit.

The "greatest lie"? I can think of a number of things than that supposed lie that are worse. Does knowing this "lie" keep us out of heaven and united with Christ?

I thought not....

Don't you think Jesus would have absolutely defined this more specifically, IF that was the greatest of lies? Didn't Jesus come to bring us the truth and set us free? Yet, nothing about this "lie"???

Where do you get this stuff from???

Hi francis

Why not provide a lie that is greater then ?

I say that the greatest lie in the world , which was spoken by the author of all lies, is that "ye shall not surely die".

This lie leads to all of mankind in their continuance to sin. Even pagans believe that even in death, they don't really die. Many religions within the world believe the exact same thing. Even some very radical religous groups that we are dealing with today believe this lie.

Now the true church is catching up to the world's way of thinking. The church is falling away from this truth. This is why the church is starting to be so acceptable to all the other lies of the world. Even homosexuality is now being allowed into the church, and there are even bishops in certain denominations that are openly gay, and they are being accepted as their minister of christianity. This is because they are believing this lie, that 'ye shall not surely die" ! Christianity is becoming a false religion based upon so many other lies. True Christianity will not bend to the lies. Even if only a few individuals in the church believe the truth. It is not about denominational sects and their individual beliefs anymore. It is about holding to the truth.

There are those within the church that now say, when you die, you don't really die, but go on to a better place. All these lies are based upon the greatest lie ever told.

When you die, your soul goes to the grave with you. Redemption was based upon a price paid for the sin of Adam. And even though Christians believe that they have been redeemed. Which is not the issue. They now believe the greatest lie that when you die, you don't really die.

I do not know what the percentages are. But the percentage is high within the Christian community that when you die you go straight to heaven to be with the Lord.

Enough said for now. Can you share your greater lies, that you assume are greater than the greatest lie ever told ?

The lie is that you can disobey God and not die.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz: "Do you really believe a person isn't born again until he gets a new body when Christ returns?"


Hey there

We are born again in the figurative sense. We have the Spirit of his Son in our hearts. The seed of Christ in us, the promised seed.

Let me ask you something. Were you born the first time without a body ? Well, let me tell you a little secret. You are not literally born again, until you get your spiritual body. And that is not happening until Christ comes back to gather up the Church, and then you will receive your new spiritual body.

Now let me tell you another little secret. In your first birth, you didn't receive your soul until you were literally born. You received you first breath life that moment that you took your first breath. Guess what ? The same goes for when you become literally born again. Your soul does not return unto you, until you totally are born again in your spiritual new body. The reason being ! If you are dead, your soul is dead also , waiting for the rebirth, which is called - "born again".

And let me share another little secret with you. Every person sins and falls short of the glory of God, correct ? If you sin, you are walking in death. But you are not dead. Nor do you end up in the second death. There is a sin unto death, but not all sin is unto death. So you can sin, not saying you should, and still receive eternal life, less a few rewards. However, if you sin, that is, a sin unto death. You then end up in the second death.

Your theory, that if you disobey God you will not die theory, is false. Yes, Adam and eve disobeyed God, and the woman was deceived. But the woman being deceived didn't cause all of mankind to die because of her sin. It was Adam and his disobedience that caused all of mankind to die, because of his sin, not hers. The greatest lie was told to the woman, not the man. "ye shall not surely die" is the greatest lie in the world. It deceived her, not him.

This same deception is prevelant today. This deception is based upon the woman being deceived. The church is the wife to Christ. The world and all the deceivers in it , want to deceive the wife to Christ, the woman to Christ. This greatest lie unto the Church is that "ye shall not surely die" !

The Church is now adopting this lie as the truth. You don't really die, you just go to a better place. The lie that your soul goes to be with the Lord when you die, is absurd !

You need to learn many things. But specifically what the spirit of man is, and what the Spirit of his Son in your heart is, and specifically what a soul is.

The soul is breath life and memory. Our memory is what allows us to communicate. Remember this -- When I was a child I spake as a child, and I understood as a child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things ? ?

Don't you think it is time to put away childish things ? There is no tooth ferry, and no santa clause.

The imaginary things of a child !

When you die, your body and soul dies !

The reason the spirit of man goes back to God, is because it was a tool. Your ability to communicate is only made possible because of the spirit of man. A baby cries becaue of the spirit of man. A baby when crying, is using its breath life. Crying is a form of communication. Memory serves a baby well. The mother comes running to the cries of a baby. The baby cries to get what it needs, until such time that the baby learns to speak. Then it communicates with words. The baby grows and matures. Crying turns to words. Words that communicate thoughts. Please pass the butter, and you get butter. My tummy hurts, so mommy knows through communication that the young childs tummy hurts. Breath life and memory brings about by way of the spirit of man, communication . The spirit of man makes it possible. Your tongue and throat maneuver itself to pass air, which is your soul and memory, in order that you communicate. Laughing, crying , singing, communication, reasoning, etc. etc. is all a part of the spirit of man. The soul, which is breath life, and memory allows one to operate or function. Once your memory grows, your ability to function grows as well.

It is through the spirit of man that God can communicate wtih mankind, in such a way in which deals with the heart <soul of the person. Your soul is also you inner heart. God can harden the heart, by way of the spirit of man. God can soften one's heart < their soul ) by way of the spirit of man.

When you die, the spirit of man goes back to God , who gave it. Your body and soul die and go to the grave. The greatest lie in the world, is that when you die, "ye shall not surely die".

Our souls need redemption. And we have received redemption. But being redeemed does not mean that you now don't die ! When you die your soul dies. Redemption is future, not instantaneously !

When our children disobey us, they don't die ! That is because this is not the greatest lie ! As parents we correct them, because we love them. God as our Father does the same with us when we disobey him.
He chasteneth us. To "instruct" us = "instruction"

As a child you don't think about death. You only think about life and having a great time having fun. Teenagers die in car accidents because they don't think about death. They are living the lie , "ye shall not surely die", just have fun and go fast and why not drink a little . They die in car accidents because they are living the lie !

When you think that when you die, that your soul goes to be with the Lord. You are living the lie ! That "ye shall not surely die" ! This is because you are still thinking as a child !

Bless

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi all

We who are Christians, have the Spirit of his Son in our hearts ----- crying ---- Abba Father. Notice the word -- crying -- here !

The spirit of man cries. Your soul brings it forth through your breath life.

The Spirit of his Son in our hearts (soul) brings about -- crying -- Abba Father. As his dear children we -- cry ! In this case , it means to cry out ! Speaking boldly.

An attribute of the Spirit of God is to -- cry

Jesus - cried ! And he cried out, as in to call someone, or speak boldly . These are spiritual attributes. Even devil spirits cry out.

God gave us not the spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind. The sound mind comes about by the Spirit of Christ in us.

Bless

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz : "This is where you err. You see our redemption as happening when our body is resurrected.
We have been bought with a price....

My soul has been redeemed...only my body awaits redemption. "



Hi glorydaz :

No, you have not been listening to me ! I do not see our redemption as happening when our body is resurrected ! Christians do not need these bodies !

You claim that your soul has been redeemed, which is correct. But your claiming that your soul will not die because it has been redeemed. < Which is a lie = untruth !

Now you are claiming that your body awaits redemption. This is true, if you are "not" a Christian !

Non christians are going to be raised from corruption unto incorruption.

Christians are going to be raised from mortal , unto immortality. The Spirit of Christ in us does not die, it sleeps. Spirit can not die ! But soul and body can die ! This is why the spirit of man goes back to God , who gave it ! It is not "your" spirit ! It is a spirit that God gave you. It belongs to God, not you ! That is because it is not you ! It is only a tool.

As a Christian, you receive the Spirit of Christ in you, the hope of glory. As a Christian, when you die, your body and soul dies = dead ! But the Christ in you is Spirit, and it only sleeps. It remains with you, and does not go back to God ! This is the promised seed !

Christians receive a new spiritual body when the gathering takes place. We do not need our earthly bodies, because we are not of the earthly, but of the heavenly ! Mortal shall put on immortality !

When we Christians are raised from the dead, we are raised Spirit and soul. Notice what it says about the last resurrection . Here in Rev. 16:3 - "and every living soul died ---- in the sea" < The soul dies !

When speaking spiritually, one must distinguish between the spirit of man and the Spirit of Christ in us.

When we die, we no longer have the spirit of man, as it goes back to God, who gave it.

The spirit of man does not give the body life ! Man is a living soul because God breathed into his nostriles the breath of life. And man became a living soul.

But when we are talking spiritually. After the sin of Adam, all die (In Adam all die). Christians are not like non christians. Non christians are walking dead bodies, bound to die, and remain dead until the last resurrection. However Christians will die as well, but we are not dead bodies walking around. For we have the Spirit of Christ in us. So, The body without the Spirit is dead. < Which means a dead body walking around. This is why it states in James 2:26 - "For as the body without the Spirit is dead" then this verse goes on to say, because we are dealing with faith here -- "so faith without works is dead also".

Show me your faith by your works !

Our faith, is not "our faith" ! Our faith, is the "faith of Christ" -- Galatians 2:20 - "I live by the faith of the Son of God" --- another one -> Philip. 3:9 - "through the faith of Christ" --- another one -> I Corinth. 2:16 - "But we have the "mind" of Christ"

Bless -- MM

 

[francisdesales]

Hi francis

Why not provide a lie that is greater then ?

sola scriptura
sola fide
cheap grace
God has literally chosen those who are going to heaven/hell already and we have nothing to say about it.
There is no hell.
God is not a Triune God.
I don't need to commune with fellow worshippers, I can just do it with "me and Jesus"
Jesus is not God
Jesus did not come in the flesh.
We still need to go to worship God on the Saturday Sabbath...

Shall I continue? It is ridiculous to think the "greatest lie" is that the soul does not die. Why is that such a great lie - even it you are correct??? So we lie in the ground entirely dead, the saints in heaven are really not speaking or worshiping God, death has separated us from Christ, etc...We would have no knowledge of the time passed in the earth, and so our earthly death and our subsequent resurrection would be one event after the other, a seemingly instantaneous thing, like when I wake up from a deep sleep from the night before.

How would THAT be "the greatest lie"? Silliness...

I say that the greatest lie in the world , which was spoken by the author of all lies, is that "ye shall not surely die".

I heard you and I still say you don't know what you are talking about, no matter how many times you repeat it...

This lie leads to all of mankind in their continuance to sin. Even pagans believe that even in death, they don't really die. Many religions within the world believe the exact same thing. Even some very radical religous groups that we are dealing with today believe this lie.

Foolishness, as I relate above. How does facing God immediately after death to answer for our sins make us MORE likely to sin??? Not sure why you are making such a big deal about this or what pamplet you read to convince you of such things, blaming the world's problems on this, but really, it is not the cause of all evils that have seeped into Christianity. It is man's propensity to follow sin, even after being illuminated in the mysteries of Christ.

People don't take their relationship with God very seriously, they are too busy worrying about money and power and such. Not caring about whther their soul will die or not... You are WAY off.

There are those within the church that now say, when you die, you don't really die, but go on to a better place. All these lies are based upon the greatest lie ever told.

When you die, your soul goes to the grave with you.

[/quote]

 

[Mysteryman]

Whoes Spirit is the spirit of man ?

The spirit of man is not ours, but God's . Genesis 6:3 - "My spirit (small "s") shall not always strive with man"

Ecc. 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was : and the spirit (small "s") shall return unto God who gave it "

Bless - MM

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi francis

Why not provide a lie that is greater then ?

sola scriptura
sola fide
cheap grace
God has literally chosen those who are going to heaven/hell already and we have nothing to say about it.
There is no hell.
God is not a Triune God.
I don't need to commune with fellow worshippers, I can just do it with "me and Jesus"
Jesus is not God
Jesus did not come in the flesh.
We still need to go to worship God on the Saturday Sabbath...

Shall I continue? It is ridiculous to think the "greatest lie" is that the soul does not die. Why is that such a great lie - even it you are correct??? So we lie in the ground entirely dead, the saints in heaven are really not speaking or worshiping God, death has separated us from Christ, etc...We would have no knowledge of the time passed in the earth, and so our earthly death and our subsequent resurrection would be one event after the other, a seemingly instantaneous thing, like when I wake up from a deep sleep from the night before.

How would THAT be "the greatest lie"? Silliness...

I say that the greatest lie in the world , which was spoken by the author of all lies, is that "ye shall not surely die".

I heard you and I still say you don't know what you are talking about, no matter how many times you repeat it...

This lie leads to all of mankind in their continuance to sin. Even pagans believe that even in death, they don't really die. Many religions within the world believe the exact same thing. Even some very radical religous groups that we are dealing with today believe this lie.

Foolishness, as I relate above. How does facing God immediately after death to answer for our sins make us MORE likely to sin??? Not sure why you are making such a big deal about this or what pamplet you read to convince you of such things, blaming the world's problems on this, but really, it is not the cause of all evils that have seeped into Christianity. It is man's propensity to follow sin, even after being illuminated in the mysteries of Christ.

People don't take their relationship with God very seriously, they are too busy worrying about money and power and such. Not caring about whther their soul will die or not... You are WAY off.

There are those within the church that now say, when you die, you don't really die, but go on to a better place. All these lies are based upon the greatest lie ever told.

When you die, your soul goes to the grave with you.

[/quote]

Hi

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God !

Bless

 

[Sinthesis]

Hi

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God !

Bless

Then how do you worm your way around:

• Jhn 8:51 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

 

[francisdesales]

Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God !

That's the extent of your response to defend your position???

"The greatest lie". Give me a break...