Essential vs Nonessential

[Jim Parker]

Which is another way of saying -
I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;
Which is the context of the letters written to the Churches.

While that specific instruction is written only to the church at Smyrna, I believe you have the correct view.

What is written to all the churches (Plural) is: "To him who overcomes..."

Rev 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

Rev 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” 

Rev 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” 

Rev 2:26-29 “And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’— as I also have received from My Father; “and I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” 

Rev 3:5-6 “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” 

Rev 3:12-13 “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” 

 

[Jim Parker]

Salvation is based on obedience.

Salvation is based on obedience.
If someone does not bother to obey Jesus, then Jesus is not his LORD or his savior.

 

[Gregg T]

So we should just tear James chapter 2 out of the Bible along with the following?
Mat 25:31-46; Jhn 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13; 22:12-14

Not at all! The Scriptures are undivided. One truth does not conflict with another truth.

If your salvation, its beginning and continuation and completion, relies upon your performance then you must necessarily interpret "by grace through faith" to really mean "by works through self-righteousness."

 

[FreeGrace]

Gregg T said: ↑
However, some here greatly desire to make salvation based on their works,

So we should just tear James chapter 2 out of the Bible along with the following?
Mat 25:31-46; Jhn 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13; 22:12-14

Could you point out where it is clear that one's works are required for salvation?

Keep in mind there are dozens of verses that condition salvation on faith, without mentioning any other condition.

 

[FreeGrace]

Case Closed!

Jesus closed the case in John 10:28 when He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

 

[atpollard]

So we should just tear James chapter 2 out of the Bible along with the following?
Mat 25:31-46; Jhn 3:36; 5:28-29; 8:51; Ro 6:2-10; 8:12-14; 2Cor 5:10; 1 Pet 1:17; 1 John 2:17; Rev 20:12-13; 22:12-14

I am opposed to that proposal ... and I am a Classical 5 point Calvinist (although technically a Reformed Baptist, so John Calvin and I disagree on some matters beyond 'monergism' and so-called "T.U.L.I.P.").

The difference (in places like James 2) being one of cause and effect, in my opinion. Good works are the 'fruit' of the monergistic salvific transformation, not the 'root' or synergystic cause of it. Thus places like James 2 are a warning that if there is no fruit, then there is no root (remember the parable of the soils).

 

[FreeGrace]

Salvation is based on obedience.
If someone does not bother to obey Jesus, then Jesus is not his LORD or his savior.

In every context about obedience, refers to the command to believe in Him.
John 14:11 - Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

The giving of the Law proved that mankind CANNOT obey it perfectly. Gal 3 says so. Which is WHY mankind NEEDS a Savior, who DID obey the Law perfectly.

 

[JLB]

So then, this seems to teach that eternal life is given to those who endure temptation? Is that correct?

Such a view is that of the Pharisees, who had a works salvation system. Which Jesus condemned.

Have you discarded John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47 from your Bible?

Believe is the condition for salvation.

Salvation is promised to believers.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

• Do you consider those who believe for a while then no longer believe, as believers?

I don't.

Believers are promised salvation.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving are promised the lake of fire.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


The scriptures throughout the new testament, teach us that those who love people, and in so doing, love God, are those who know God, which is the biblical definition of eternal life.

• When love and care for people, this is good.
• When we hate people, and watch them suffer when we have the ability to help them, this is evil.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:4-6


If you consider being led by the Spirit, and walking according to the Spirit, in which we walk in love towards God and people, as Pharisaical works, then you have shown to all, you simple don;'t understand Jesus or His message.


25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” 27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” Luke 10:25-36

The Pharisee was the one who did not do any work of love.

• let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:18-24

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

• faith working through love.

• A faith that works is a living faith.
• A faith that doesn't work is a dead faith.

A faith that works, is a faith that works [functions]

A faith that doesn't work, is a faith that doesn't work [doesn't function].


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Receiving eternal life on the Day.

So then, this would mean that what Jesus said in John 5:24 isn't true. Because He said this:
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Please point out in this verse the idea that eternal life is received "on the Day".

Unfortunately, that is impossible, because Jesus was clear that eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes.

Your claim is in direct conflict with the Savior's words.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe is the condition for salvation.

Salvation is promised to believers.

lest they should believe and be saved.

So far, so good.

Believers are promised salvation.

No, believers HAVE salvation. They ARE saved. It's not just a promise for some future action.

In fact, believers HAVE eternal life. They possess it. John 5:24 says so. On the basis of believing.

Those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving are promised the lake of fire.

How come you've NEVER provided any verse that makes this outrageous claim?

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Where would I find "ex-believers" in this verse? I do find "unbelieving", but that's not the issue for anyone who has RECEIVED eternal life, which was WHEN they first believed, as John 5:24 establishes.

And on that basis of receiving eternal life WHEN one first believes, Jesus makes the promise that "they shall never perish".

And you've NEVER shown otherwise.

All you've shown is a total opposition to what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Everyone who has received eternal life shall never perish. So said Jesus.

 

[atpollard]

Salvation is based on obedience.
If someone does not bother to obey Jesus, then Jesus is not his LORD or his savior.

Point of clarification:
Are you saying that God cannot save us without our obedient cooperation, or simply that if we are disobedient, then we are not 'saved'?

Whose will dominates?

 

[JLB]

So then, this would mean that what Jesus said in John 5:24 isn't true. Because He said this:
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Please point out in this verse the idea that eternal life is received "on the Day".

Unfortunately, that is impossible, because Jesus was clear that eternal life is possessed WHEN one believes.

Your claim is in direct conflict with the Savior's words.

Of course what Jesus said in John 5:24 is true, just as what He said in John 5:28-29 is true.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:24-29


Just as what He said in John 3:36 is true.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

• who believes [hears and obeys] in the Son has eternal life John 3:36
• he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36
• he who hears [hearkens to do] My word and believes [obeys] John 5:24
• those who have done good [hear and obey], to the resurrection of life John 5:29
• those who have done evil [disobedient], to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:29

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good Romans 2:7
• those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath Romans 2:8

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



JLB

 

[JLB]

Point of clarification:
Are you saying that God cannot save us without our obedient cooperation, or simply that if we are disobedient, then we are not 'saved'?

Whose will dominates?

The Bible surely says this.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

• he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:6-7

• because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them

• Therefore do not be partakers with them

JLB

 

[JLB]

Where would I find "ex-believers" in this verse? I do find "unbelieving", but that's not the issue for anyone who has RECEIVED eternal life, which was WHEN they first believed, as John 5:24 establishes.

And on that basis of receiving eternal life WHEN one first believes, Jesus makes the promise that "they shall never perish".

And you've NEVER shown otherwise.

All you've shown is a total opposition to what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Everyone who has received eternal life shall never perish. So said Jesus.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

• who believes [hears and obeys] in the Son has eternal life John 3:36
• he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36
• he who hears [hearkens to do] My word and believes [obeys] John 5:24
• those who have done good [hear and obey], to the resurrection of life John 5:29
• those who have done evil [disobedient], to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:29

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good Romans 2:7
• those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath Romans 2:8

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

• because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them

• Therefore do not be partakers with them

 

[atpollard]

All you've shown is a total opposition to what Jesus said in John 10:28.
Everyone who has received eternal life shall never perish. So said Jesus.

Point of clarification:
Can Jesus give someone "eternal life, and they shall never perish" (John 10:28) yet that person continue to live a reprobate lifestyle characterized by the "deeds of the flesh" (Gal 5:19-21) and none of the "fruit of the Spirit" (Gal 5:22-23)?


On the chance you answer "yes", I offer those verses in Galatians 5 in context ...

Galatians 5:16-24 NASB
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh [fn]sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you [fn]please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: [fn]immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, [fn]factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who [fn]belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

... and I would point out that these verses present a binary choice: flesh or spirit. They may war, but only one will win. If Jesus' promises are to be believed, then those whom the Father has drawn, His sheep who hear his voice, those sealed with the promise that guarantees the inheritance, His Body ... will see the triumph of the Spirit over the flesh because they are being transformed into the image of Christ. Hence James warning that where there is no fruit of the Spirit, there is only a dead, counterfeit faith that cannot save.

Notice Galatians 5:24 "Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."
It says those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh. So those who wallow in the flesh have not crucified the flesh and are not "those who belong to Christ". This disqualifies the idea of being "saved" and not changing a thing in your sinful lifestyle.

It DOES NOT SAY: "those who have crucified the flesh, belong to Christ Jesus." The crucifixion of the flesh (our sinful nature) is NOT a prerequisite for belonging to Christ. The 'cause' is belonging to Christ and the 'effect' is the triumph of the fruit of the Spirit over the deeds of the flesh.

Thus BOTH parts of Ephesians 2:8-10 are true:
Our salvation is a gift, not a result of OUR works, and yet, we are created in Christ to do (walk in) good works which God prepared for us to do.

Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[atpollard]

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:6-7

• because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them

• Therefore do not be partakers with them

The 'sons of disobedience' are those whose lives are characterized by disobedience (the unsaved world).
Eph 5:7 is a command not to join sinners in acts of disobedience towards God.

To the unsaved "sons of disobedience", Eph 5:7 means nothing. Thus for Eph 5:7 to have any meaning, there must be some distinction between the "sons of disobedience" and the implied "you" recipients of Eph 5:7 who were not to join the sons of disobedience.

So what, in your opinion, is the difference between them?
One group chooses to obey and another chooses not to obey God? Is that the only difference?

 

[JLB]

The 'sons of disobedience' are those whose lives are characterized by disobedience (the unsaved world).
Eph 5:7 is a command not to join sinners in acts of disobedience towards God.

To the unsaved "sons of disobedience", Eph 5:7 means nothing. Thus for Eph 5:7 to have any meaning, there must be some distinction between the "sons of disobedience" and the implied "you" recipients of Eph 5:7 who were not to join the sons of disobedience.

So what, in your opinion, is the difference between them?
One group chooses to obey and another chooses not to obey God? Is that the only difference?

Paul warns us not to be partakers with them, in God's wrath.

No opinion, just truth.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

• Therefore do not be partakers with them.

JLB

 

[atpollard]

• who believes [hears and obeys] in the Son has eternal life John 3:36

• he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36

I am not certain that you are doing justice to this verse.

John 3:36 NASB
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

• "He who believes in the Son has eternal life" ... No hears and obeys, it just says "believes"
  
• BELIEVES = (Strong's G4100) πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
• HAS eternal life is predicated on placing trust "in the Son".

• "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." ... Wrath is for acts of disobedience.
• DOES NOT OBEY = (Strong's G544) ἀπειθέω apeithéō, ap-i-theh'-o; from G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):—not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.
• ABIDES = (Strong's G3306) μένω ménō, men'-o; a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):—abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), × thine own.
• WRATH is a state that pre-exisists and the 'act of disobedience' is actually steadfastly refusing to place their trust in the Son.

Thus the message of John 3:36 appears to be closer to all men are already abiding (in a present state) under the wrath of God. Those who steadfastly continue to refuse to place their trust in the Son, will remain in that state and not see life. Those who have placed their trust in the son have (present tense) life.

I would speculate from other verses that only the Son (in particular His blood shed on the Cross) removes the wrath of God from "His sheep".

 

[atpollard]

Paul warns us not to be partakers with them, in God's wrath.

No opinion, just truth.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

• Therefore do not be partakers with them.

JLB

Matthew 5:27-28 NASB “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

• You are just one careless glance away from being a "partaker" with them, in God's wrath.

No opinion, just truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course what Jesus said in John 5:24 is true, just as what He said in John 5:28-29 is true.

Please don't forget that what He said in John 10:28 is also true: recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So there is no reason to believe that salvation can be lost. Those who are given eternal life shall not perish.