Essential vs Nonessential

[Jim Parker]

Are you saying that God cannot save us without our obedient cooperation, or simply that if we are disobedient, then we are not 'saved'?

God can do whatever HE wants to do. There is not "cannot" with God.
If we are not obedient (as a manner of life) the we have declined His offer of eternal life.

Whose will dominates?

God does not force anyone to accept His gracious gift of eternal life.
God offers eternal life to all of mankind.
Everyone can have eternal life or the second death.
Those are the two choices.
Pick one.

 

[atpollard]

So you have found it necessary to re-form the faith of the reformer who took it upon himself the re-form the faith which the apostles were taught by God the Son.
You have my condolences.

So if we are to return to pre-Reformation Theology, what do you charge for indulgences? To quote you:

That is a excellent demonstration of how to string gobbledygook and baloney together while appearing to be serious in my opinion.

 

[Gregg T]

Let's examine what the scriptures say about hating and unforgivness.

• you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Since professing Christ, have you broken any of the ten commandments, or not loved God or you neighbor, or withheld forgiveness even for a brief moment? If you answer yes to any of these, then your self-righteous self-works theology has a massive hole in it; as did the theology of the pharisees.

- - -

Isa 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

Joh 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 10:28 And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

1Co 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Gal 3:11 And that no one is justified by Law before God is clear because, "The just shall live by faith."

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;

Heb 7:25 And from this He is able to save to the end completely the ones drawing near to God through Him, forever living to intercede on their behalf.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified..

Those scriptures condemn your soteriology, self righteousness, and meritorious works based salvation.

 

[Gregg T]

IT is dependent on my obedience to Christ and that in no manner conflicts with salvation by God's grace. God is not obligated to save anyone and saves everyone by His gracious act.
He even gives me a gift of faith to trust in His finished work on behalf of mankind but, it is my responsibility to be faithful and produce fruit in accordance with my repentance.
ANd, unless I do my best to obey the LORD, then I fail to be faithful rendering the gift of faith I received worthless and my lack of good works (bearing of fruit) a demonstration of my rejection of His grace.

There is no conflict between Grace and faith and works. They all work together for our salvation. Remove any one of them and salvation doesn't happen.

Our works contribute nothing to having been saved, being kept saved, and the promise of salvation for eternity.

Salvation 'doesn't happen' when your works are involved.

No shirtless, shoeless, pharisees allowed here!

 

[JLB]

Since professing Christ, have you broken any of the ten commandments, or not loved God or you neighbor, or withheld forgiveness even for a brief moment? If you answer yes to any of these, then your self-righteous self-works theology has a massive hole in it; as did the theology of the pharisees.

- - -

Isa 53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

Joh 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 10:28 And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

1Co 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

Gal 3:11 And that no one is justified by Law before God is clear because, "The just shall live by faith."

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;

Heb 7:25 And from this He is able to save to the end completely the ones drawing near to God through Him, forever living to intercede on their behalf.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified..

Those scriptures condemn your soteriology, self righteousness, and meritorious works based salvation.

You will have to answer the last question I asked you, sir, if you expect me to answer your question.

Here it is again -

• So in your theology it's really an option whether one is required to obey His commandment to love or to forgive?

Make no mistake about it, by asking you this question, I am asking you point blank:

Are you teaching this forum that Christians have the option whether to forgive or harbor unforgiveness and whether to love or hate, and still inherit eternal life?

• Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The condition for eternal life is obey, which is what believe means.

Those who obey the Gospel, are given eternal life.

This disagrees with what Jesus said in John 5:24. “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
There is no ambiguity in the red words. When one believes, they HAVE eternal life.

Your definition is seriously flawed. Please support your definition from a source other than your opinion.

Eternal life is for those who hear and obey.

That's not what John 5:24 says.

Which is what John 5:24 says as well.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears [hearken to do] My word and believes [obeys] in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Playing loose with definitions doesn't cut it.

To "believe" is to accept as truth. To trust.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"Could you point out where it is clear that one's works are required for salvation?"

I've done that for you many times already.

No, you haven't. In fact, there are many verses that teach that one must believe for salvation.

And, in fact, works are NOT required.
Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Why should I bother to post from God's word what you refuse to believe?

Why should I accept verses that DON'T SAY what is claimed that they say?

I wish you would just quit trolling your OSAS heresy.

So, Jesus taught heresy, eh?

He said this: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." John 10:28

There is no ambiguity in His words here.

iow, recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Ever. For any reason.

That isn't heresy. It's eternal security. Promised by Jesus Himself. The only One who CAN promise eternal security. Which He did.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"In every context about obedience, refers to the command to believe in Him."

That's pure drivel.

That's pure opinion.

But you missed the context of my comment. When obedience is linked to salvation, it does refer to believing in Him.

That's the ONLY COMMAND that will result in salvation; believing in Jesus Christ as your Savior.

Obedience refers to taking action, to doing something like feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, visit the sick and prisoner. Those are physical acts carried out by an act of will by the actor.

None of these things will merit salvation. Salvation is by grace, through faith, and NOT OF WORKS.

 

[FreeGrace]

God can do whatever HE wants to do. There is not "cannot" with God.

Oh, really?

Heb 6:18 - God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged

If we are not obedient (as a manner of life) the we have declined His offer of eternal life.

That is mixed up.

God does not force anyone to accept His gracious gift of eternal life.

No one says He does.

God offers eternal life to all of mankind.

He sure does.

Everyone can have eternal life or the second death.

The only 2 options of eternity.

Those are the two choices.
Pick one.

Everyone does.

And, those who receive eternal life shall never perish. So said Jesus. John 10:28

 

[FreeGrace]

Gregg T said: ↑
.................

You will have to answer the last question I asked you, sir, if you expect me to answer your question.

How come that isn't applied when I've asked a lot of questions and all I get back is more questions, rather than answers?

Why the double standard?

 

[WIP]

Taking it a step further, we know that WHEN one initially believes, they HAVE eternal life. Which immediately clarifies John 10:28 about WHEN Jesus "gives them eternal life". It's WHEN they first believed. And that is when His promise that "they shall never perish" applies.

I believe that said eternal life would also manifest itself in the life of those who have it. I believe there are a lot of people that falsely believe they have eternal life because of the teaching they have received. The world today teaches what I have referred to as a "feel good" christianity.

 

[WIP]

I do not buy yhat the phrase, "will never perish", is a license for the Christian to sin, and no one taking my position has made such a claim.

Precisely what position is that you speak of?

 

[JLB]

This disagrees with what Jesus said in John 5:24. “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."
There is no ambiguity in the red words. When one believes, they HAVE eternal life.

Your definition is seriously flawed. Please support your definition from a source other than your opinion.

• Do you believe God will judge each person according to their deeds, on the Day of Judgement?

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

Which is what John 5:24 says as well.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears [hearken to do] My word and believes [obeys] in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

The result of obeying the Lord = doing good; loving people; inheriting eternal life, inheriting the kingdom of God

The result of disobeying the Lord = doing evil; hating people; come forth in the resurrection of condemnation; will not inherit the kingdom of God


Do you believe this will occur for us on the Day of Judgement?

• Example of doing good; Loving people -

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[because] for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’

• Example of doing evil; not loving people

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
[Because] for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
naked and you did not clothe Me,
sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
Matthew 25:41-43



JLB

 

[WIP]

Honestly, giving the "worst case scenarios" of believers going bad is a smoke screen for the real problem......religion and doing good to get saved or remain saved.

Or possibly the real problem is teaching a false sense of hope.

 

[JLB]

No, you haven't. In fact, there are many verses that teach that one must believe for salvation.

And, in fact, works are NOT required.
Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Yes agreed, we can not earn salvation by doing good works.

Only through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross for us can we be saved.

This is how we come to have the hope of inheriting eternal life.


Do you understand that we have the hope of inheriting eternal life, which comes from faith; the substance of the thing we are hoping for?

In this life we who have faith in Christ, are joined to Him, and are one spirit with Him: One spirit with the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

• But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

We do not have eternal life, apart from Christ.

If you are in Christ, you are joined to, and are one with, the Spirit of [eternal] Life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

That is where and how we have eternal life; in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who are in Christ, then later are removed from Christ, are no longer joined to Him.

John 15 -

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

• For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Paul says the same thing in Romans 8:1

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

• There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh
• For the wages of sin is death

Both Paul and Jesus contrast the two results and make it clear for us to understand:


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

1. eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality
2. to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29


All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth:

1. those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
2. those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality. Paul
• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life. Jesus

• to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath. Paul
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. Jesus

You will never change these words, by misquoting other scriptures.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Gregg T said: ↑
.................

How come that isn't applied when I've asked a lot of questions and all I get back is more questions, rather than answers?

Why the double standard?

Why haven't you answered my questions when I have asked them, in the past?

Where do you stand on this question?


Are you teaching this forum that Christians have the option whether to forgive or harbor unforgiveness and whether to love or hate, and still inherit eternal life?

• Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe that said eternal life would also manifest itself in the life of those who have it.

Are there any verses that indicate a guarantee? What I read are commands to demonstrate one's faith.

I believe there are a lot of people that falsely believe they have eternal life because of the teaching they have received.

That's true, but has no bearing on eternal security. False teaching does not provide any security.

The world today teaches what I have referred to as a "feel good" christianity.

I agree. It's a sad mess throughout Christianity.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you believe God will judge each person according to their deeds, on the Day of Judgement?

Sure. Because the Bible says so.

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

Which is what John 5:24 says as well.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears [hearken to do] My word and believes [obeys] in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

• those who have done good to the resurrection of life
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

The result of obeying the Lord = doing good; loving people; inheriting eternal life, inheriting the kingdom of God

Sad that so many otherwise conscientious believers fail to properly understand what "inheriting the kingdom" means. It does NOT mean "enter the kingdom". Not by a long shot.

The result of disobeying the Lord = doing evil; hating people; come forth in the resurrection of condemnation; will not inherit the kingdom of God

Your message is clear: salvation is merited on the basis of one's obedience to all of God's commands.

Well, all I can say is, that is totally wrong. It is misunderstanding of God's Word. A failure to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Do you believe this will occur for us on the Day of Judgement?

The Bible says so. Yes, I believe everything the Bible says.

Example of doing good; Loving people -
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
[because] for I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’

Example of doing evil; not loving people

Do you believe that all of this is how one enters heaven? By one's efforts?

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
[Because] for I was hungry and you gave Me no food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink;
I was a stranger and you did not take Me in,
naked and you did not clothe Me,
sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
Matthew 25:41-43JLB

Jesus was giving examples of how believers and unbelievers act. Not requirements for how to enter into heaven.

 

[FreeGrace]

gr8grace3 said: ↑
Honestly, giving the "worst case scenarios" of believers going bad is a smoke screen for the real problem......religion and doing good to get saved or remain saved.

Or possibly the real problem is teaching a false sense of hope.

Is John 10:28 a false hope? Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Did He mean what He said, or did He mean something else?

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes agreed, we can not earn salvation by doing good works.

Only through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross for us can we be saved.

Then why not just leave it there, which is biblical?

This is how we come to have the hope of inheriting eternal life.

Why not believe what Jesus said in John 5:24; that "whoever believes HAS eternal life"? He didn't say "HAS the hope of inheriting eternal life", as your posts continue to teach.

Do you understand that we have the hope of inheriting eternal life, which comes from faith; the substance of the thing we are hoping for?

Here's what I fully understand from Scripture:
1. every believer, from the moment of initial faith in Christ, actually HAS eternal life. Not just some hope of getting it some day. They actually HAVE it RIGHT NOW (when they initially believed). It seems from your posts that you don't believe that.

So, do you agree or not, that from the moment of initial belief, the believer HAS eternal life?

In this life we who have faith in Christ, are joined to Him, and are one spirit with Him: One spirit with the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

But isn't your belief that one who has been joined to the Lord can be removed from Him, and thus, perish? Which totally contradicts what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28?

We do not have eternal life, apart from Christ.

"Having believed, we are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13), which is a deposit of our inheritance for the day of redemption, as God's own possession" (Eph 1:14).

These 2 verses refute any notion that one who has been placed into union with Christ can be removed from Him.

I believe it is heresy to make such a claim.

If you are in Christ, you are joined to, and are one with, the Spirit of [eternal] Life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

That is where and how we have eternal life; in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again, I believe it is heresy to claim that anyone 'having believed', and therefore sealed IN HIM, can be removed from Him.

Those who are in Christ, then later are removed from Christ, are no longer joined to Him.

I believe this is just heresy, because Eph 1:13,14 don't permit such an unbiblical idea.

John 15 -
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

The explanation of this has been given repeatedly. There is no excuse for not understanding what this is about.

You will never change these words, by misquoting other scriptures.

This is a blatant FALSE CHARGE. I've quoted Scripture. Please provide evidence of "misquoting" any Scripture, or retract this inane claim.