Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Essential vs Nonessential
- Thread starter netchaplain
- Start date
Yes.
The war is won only at physical death, when we leave our sinful flesh.
Why should I believe that Gal 5:16-24 would answer "no" to your question? It's obvious that there is a battle going on within us. And ONLY when one is filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16), is the believer winning the battle.
But, when the believer grieves the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenches the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19), they are losing the battle.
I believe you've misunderstood Scripture. As you said, it's a binary choice. But not just one single choice. We face this exact choice literally every moment of the day. Temptations come from within and without. Satan is constantly trying to deceive us. Etc.
Again, a misunderstanding of Scripture. James said NOTHING of anything "counterfeit". Or fake.
When you try to start your car, but the battery that worked just fine the previous day is now dead, is it a "counterfeit battery"? No. It's just not producing any power.
The same for believers. When filled and walking with the Spirit, we are empowered to live the Christian life.
But, otoh, when we are grieving or quenching the Spirit, our faith is NOT producing the power of the Spirit to live the Christian life.
This is a positional crucifixion. We, by means of our faith in Him, are "crucified with Him", per Gal 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
This is not an on-going or repeated action crucifixion. At faith in Christ, we are sealed IN HIM (Eph 1:13) and positionally are crucified with Him.
Can one who has received eternal life ever perish? For any reason?
I am speaking about our life in heaven. If one can experience remorse then Revelation 21 doesn't work.
Because that is the message I've been getting from some in these discussions. I have asked straight up if once a person is saved can that person later deny Jesus, curse Jesus, return to a life of sin, and even worship Satan and still be saved and the answer I got was a flat out "Yes." I don't buy it.
Last edited:
We all know by now from the whole counsel of scriptures concerning this subject, which includes, not just parts of verses stitched and spliced together, but many scripture passages and their context, showing that we would have believed have the hope of inheriting eternal life.
that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7
The reason Pays we have the hope of eternal life, is because we have faith in Christ Jesus for eternal life.
- Faith is the substance of things hoped for...
Eternal life is for those who hear and obey.
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB
- who believes [hears and obeys] in the Son has eternal life John 3:36
- he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36
- he who hears [hearkens to do] My word and believes [obeys] John 5:24
- those who have done good [hear and obey], to the resurrection of life John 5:29
- those who have done evil [disobedient], to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:29
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good Romans 2:7
- those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath Romans 2:8
In this life we who believe and in Christ, whereby we have been joined to Christ and are "one spirit" with the Spirit of [eternal] Life in Christ.
As long as we remain [abide] "in Christ", we are "one spirit" with eternal life.
Those who are in Christ, then later are removed from Christ, no longer are joined to Him.
This illustration teaches us, as a branch is connected to the Vine in which it is "one" with the Vine and benefits from the Life of the Vine, it will flourish and produce fruit, otherwise if the branch becomes disconnected from the Vine, it will with and is cast into the fire and burned.
Likewise if anyone of us who is in Christ, for whatever reason becomes disconnected or removed or taken away from Him, we also will wither and in the end be gathered up and cast into the fire and burned.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 16:5-6
- they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Please tells us what happens to a branch that is thrown into the fire and burned?
- The branch is destroyed by fire
- The branch continues to live of itself, with no need of the vine
JLB
I'm not seeing anything here that indicates that these verses don't apply after one believes. Taking it a step further, since it is said that one is saved when one believes then I'm not seeing where these verses don't apply after one has been saved.
This leads me to the conclusion that John 5:24 is speaking of the promise of salvation and not salvation itself.
We certainly have the hope of eternity, which is what that means.
But, we NOW HAVE eternal life itself, because Jesus said so in John 5:24. "whoever believes HAS eternal life".
How can any believer disagree with Jesus?
This is an impossibility, since Paul wrote this in Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
So, here's the truth:
1. we "were included IN Christ" "WHEN we believed"
2. we "were marked IN HIM with a seal, the Holy Spirit"
3. the Holy Spirit "is a deposit" which "guarantees our inheritance"
4. the "guarantee of our inheritance" is "until the redemption of "God's possession".
So, given these 2 verses, please explain HOW anyone who has believed can become "disconnected, removed, or taken away from Him".
If these 2 verses weren't in the Bible, there might be a point. But as it is, they ARE THERE, and what you claim is impossible.
It's taken out of service, of course.
Here's the problem with your view: IF John 15 was about losing salvation and then perishing in a fire, which refers to the lake of fire, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true. How can one NOT understand that?
Jesus was clear about recipients of eternal life (those He gives eternal life); they shall NEVER PERISH.
What part of "NEVER PERISH" is so difficult to understand?
The view of loss of salvation creates a HUGE contradiction in the Bible. Congratulations.
How should one understand the phrase "whoever believes HAS eternal life"?
The word "believes" is present tense. As is "has eternal life". They go together, iow.
Taking it a step further, we know that WHEN one initially believes, they HAVE eternal life. Which immediately clarifies John 10:28 about WHEN Jesus "gives them eternal life". It's WHEN they first believed. And that is when His promise that "they shall never perish" applies.
Gregg T
Member
The verse you quoted addresses two groups, each having a different state of being:
1. one who believes in the Son
- he has / holds / possesses a life that is eternal
- he will never perish Jn 3:15-16, Jn 10:28
- he does not come into judgement Jn 5:24
- he has pased out from death into Life Jn 5:24
- he has perceived the glory of God Jn 11:40
- God's wrath no longer abides on him because he is in Christ
- they perceive Christ who is the Life; a reasonable assumption having perceived the Son so as to believe in Him, the Life
- will not see / percieve life - he was never persuaded to believe in Christ, which excludes this one from having ever been saved because by default one has perceive the One in Whom he believed, one never having perceived the Son
- God's wrath abides on him - meaning remains on him, having always been under God's wrath, never out from under God's wrath, never saved
Gregg T
Member
Do you think someone like that, cursing Jesus, leading a life of sin, worshipping Satan, was never saved to begin with? That seems likely to me that they never intended to follow Jesus, having a superficial or misplaced faith.
The phrase "will never perish" is straight forward, no ambiguity, nothing to read into it. So should a Christian become as you described above, if that were even possible, does not change the veracity of the phrase - "will never perish." God does not go back on His word.
I do not buy yhat the phrase, "will never perish", is a license for the Christian to sin, and no one taking my position has made such a claim.
billybalke
Member
I agree with wip
The condition for eternal life is obey, which is what believe means.
Those who obey the Gospel, are given eternal life.
Those who obey for a while, then return to serving Satan, have return to unbelieving.
The unbelieving are promised eternal damnation.
Eternal life is for those who hear and obey.
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB
Which is what John 5:24 says as well.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears [hearken to do] My word and believes [obeys] in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
- those who have done good to the resurrection of life
- those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
If you think that loving your neighbor, and walking according to the Spirit, and practicing righteousness, is somehow legalism, then please show the scriptures that prove this.
And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. 1 John 4:21
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15
- Is it possible for a born again Christian's love to grow cold?
- Is it possible for a born again Christian to take an offense and become angry, and refuse to forgive?
Show me an example of a sheep who doesn't obey the voice of his Sheppard, and I will show you a sheep that is lost.
Surely you understand what "lost means"?
- Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
- Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.
- Lost Sheep:
- Lost Coin:
Luke 15:10
- Prodigal Son
- This foundational truth can not be changed by quoting other scriptures.
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB
- who believes [hears and obeys] in the Son has eternal life John 3:36
- he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36
- he who hears [hearkens to do] My word and believes [obeys] John 5:24
- those who have done good [hear and obey], to the resurrection of life John 5:29
- those who have done evil [disobedient], to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:29
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good Romans 2:7
- those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath Romans 2:8
JLB
Gregg T
Member
Loving your neighbor is not legalism according to Scripture; but comes willfully and joyfully from the new nature given to God's children.
But, you make loving your neighbor legalism by declaring it as a condition to remain saved. Such as in your following comment:
The Greek text by no means says 'he . . . must love his brother' The word 'must' is translated from the Gk. word δεῖ {must, it is necesary}, where 1Jn 4:21 uses the word ἀγαπάω {to love} in the subjunctive mood {suggesting a posibility or objective probability}, and is properly translated 'should love.'
". . . the one loving God should also love his brother" One of the greatest commandment; still yet, this by no means is a qualification for obtaining or maintaining salvation.
I do not buy into self-righteousness for salvation, works for maintaining salvation, or an agency for losing salvation.
So in your theology it's really an option whether one is required to obey His commandment to love or to forgive?
Let's examine what the scriptures say about hating and unforgivness.
- you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15
Again
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
Matthew 18:32-35
We are plainly taught that we can indeed lose the very the forgiveness we once had, if we ourselves don't forgive others.
It just couldn't be anymore clear.
JLB
Jim Parker
Member
IT is dependent on my obedience to Christ and that in no manner conflicts with salvation by God's grace. God is not obligated to save anyone and saves everyone by His gracious act.
He even gives me a gift of faith to trust in His finished work on behalf of mankind but, it is my responsibility to be faithful and produce fruit in accordance with my repentance.
ANd, unless I do my best to obey the LORD, then I fail to be faithful rendering the gift of faith I received worthless and my lack of good works (bearing of fruit) a demonstration of my rejection of His grace.
There is no conflict between Grace and faith and works. They all work together for our salvation. Remove any one of them and salvation doesn't happen.
Jim Parker
Member
I've done that for you many times already.
Why should I bother to post from God's word what you refuse to believe?
I wish you would just quit trolling your OSAS heresy.
Then you would logically have to believe that that the MAJOR majority will and have lost salvation. Because the MAJOR majority revert back to religion.
Religion.......
1.Denies Jesus sufficient work on the Cross. So they deny Jesus in an "hidden" way.
2. Curses Jesus and puts Him in OPEN shame. Loss of salvation puts Him back on the Cross over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.
3. Returns to a life of sin. But a WAY worse life of sin. Pride and arrogance in their own righteousness and maintaining what Christ completed for them.
4. They inadvertently worship satan. Because he is the father of religion and white knuckling, being good, work for yourselves salvation.
Honestly, giving the "worst case scenarios" of believers going bad is a smoke screen for the real problem......religion and doing good to get saved or remain saved.
Gregg T
Member
Rather one desiring to be obedient to the LORD will believe in Him, will believe into Christ.
If flawless, continual obedience were a condition for eternal life, no one would be saved. But Jesus Christ is always faithful, always obedient, having followed the Law perfectly; and His grace and righteousness and death and Resurrection is sufficient to save for eternity. The Father would have you to trust in Him for salvation, not in both yourself and in Him.
For the one born from above, who will never perish, who has eternal life being in Christ, it is most definately both an expectation / commandment and an option with consequences; either toward growing in the Lord and pleasing Him, or a missed opportunity and disappointment - but not for loss of salvation.
For one yet to be born from above, a son of disobedience, one perishing upon whom God's wrath abides, it is most definately both an expectation / commandment and an option with consequences; either toward loving God and pleasing Him so as to believe into Christ, or toward remaing lost.
Freemasons are buried wearing their lambs-wool aprons, thinking that when they stand before the LORD their good works will merit righteousness and life in heaven. What a mockery of the righteousness of God and Jesus Christ; what an insult to the LORD's grace and salvation; what a trampling of truth and the Gospel and the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ; what a far reaching and eternal self deception!
Jim Parker
Member
So you have found it necessary to re-form the faith of the reformer who took it upon himself the re-form the faith which the apostles were taught by God the Son.
You have my condolences.
That is a excellent demonstration of how to string gobbledygook and baloney together while appearing to be serious in my opinion.
Good works are our free will response to God's grace and the desire to obey His commands.
We and we alone are responsible to obey God.
It is our choice to obey God and do the works the lead to eternal life or to reject God's commandments and do the works that lead to condemnation.
If we were not responsible for our choice to obey or rebel against Christ then there would not be over 150 admonitions in the NY telling us to keep His commands.
Our salvation is synergistic; we cooperate with God by willingly choosing to follow the narrow path which leads to salvation.
So, while it is the Holy Spirit alone is responsible for the spiritual regeneration of human beings, it is human beings who must, moment by moment, make the free will choice to obey the commands of the LORD.
If there is no free will choice on the part of the human being involved in the process then human beings are simply machines and "regeneration by the Holy Spirit" is simply a reprogramming of those machines.
Jim Parker
Member
That's pure drivel.
Obedience refers to taking action, to doing something like feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, visit the sick and prisoner. Those are physical acts carried out by an act of will by the actor.