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poetofparables
Guest
Yeah that to.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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TimothyW
Member
Sorry, Rev 20:11-15 does not say that those who do not receive the gift of eternal life will have eternal life in hell with satan being tormented alive forever while they are dead.
And Destroyed means exactly that. And forever and ever means exactly that. And when someone is destroyed and remains destroyed forever and ever that doesn't mean that they remain undestroyed forever and ever.
Really? Are you SURE about that?
Psalm 37:10
In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.
You really should use Google BEFORE you attempt to tell me that the Scriptures do not say something.
No Free, I do not reject what is written in scripture. But you do.
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poetofparables
Guest
(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)
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TimothyW
Member
This is GREAT! That is the way to be. I wish I went to that church, even if they disagreed with me on every doctrine.
Showing disrespect to Jesus Christ matters
People my have gods but there is one God...
Being a guest here does not allow for disrespect ...
Obadiah
Member
Ok, I've caught up and will re-open the thread now.
Before anyone posts anything further, please read this. There is a new post (here) with guidelines specifically for threads in the Apologetics and Theology forum. This was just posted this morning, but has been worked on by staff members for some time. It's not the result of this thread or any other thread in particular, but these new guidelines WILL apply to posts in this thread and all other Apologetics and Theology threads from here on. They carry the same weight as out ToS, so please become familiar with them before posting anything further. Thank you.
Guidelines for Posting in the Apologetics and Theology Forum
Christian Theology is by definition the study of God through His word, the Bible. Apologetics goes hand in hand with theology as it is the branch of Christian theology which attempts to give a rational defense of the Christian faith. That makes the Apologetics and Theology forum unique from many of our other forums in that this is a place specifically for these types of discussions.
With this in mind, the following guidelines should be followed.
Before anyone posts anything further, please read this. There is a new post (here) with guidelines specifically for threads in the Apologetics and Theology forum. This was just posted this morning, but has been worked on by staff members for some time. It's not the result of this thread or any other thread in particular, but these new guidelines WILL apply to posts in this thread and all other Apologetics and Theology threads from here on. They carry the same weight as out ToS, so please become familiar with them before posting anything further. Thank you.
Guidelines for Posting in the Apologetics and Theology Forum
Christian Theology is by definition the study of God through His word, the Bible. Apologetics goes hand in hand with theology as it is the branch of Christian theology which attempts to give a rational defense of the Christian faith. That makes the Apologetics and Theology forum unique from many of our other forums in that this is a place specifically for these types of discussions.
With this in mind, the following guidelines should be followed.
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Let's consider some facts.
1. Rev 19:20 - And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. NASB
a. 2 human beings are "thrown ALIVE" into the lake of fire. They don't suffer physical death.
b. they are thrown into the 'lake of fire'.
w. Rev 20:10 - And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. NASB
a. now the devil, or satan, joins the beast (antichrist) and his false prophet) in the lake of fire
b. the "they" now refers to a) satan, b) beast, and c) false prophet
c. the 3 of them will be tormented day and night (24/7) forever and ever.
Rev 20:11-14 describes the Great White Throne judgment.
v.15 - And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. NASB
a. those who never received eternal life through faith in Christ will be thrown into the SAME lake of fire as previously noted, which includes satan, the beast and his false prophet.
b. we've already seen how long they will exist in the lake of fire; forever and ever.
This isn't debatable. The lake of fire will include satan, the antichrist, his false prophet, and EVERYONE who never received the free gift of eternal life.
And all of them will be "tormented day and night (24/7) forever and ever.
That's more than a very long time.
But being "tormented" clearly denotes a conscious awareness, one must understand the range of meanings of "destroyed". If it always means annihilation, as you think, then one CANNOT be tormented, 'cause they wouldn't be around to be tormented. That's how we figure out what Scripture means. BECAUSE those in the second death (lake of fire) ARE tormented forever and ever, PROVES that they haven't been annihilated.
Please don't keep ignoring the meaning of "tormented day and night forever and ever". Your understanding of 'destroyed' cannot mean annihilated because of Rev 20:10.
Well, you've either ignored or rejected the meaning of "tormented" in Rev 20:10. I don't know which, but maybe you could tell me. For me, to ignore Scripture is to reject it. So either way, your view has no support from Scripture.
If one has been annihilated, there is no torment 24/7 forever and ever. At the point of annihilation, all consciousness simply ceases. There is no 'forever and ever', or 24/7.
Therefore, all human beings will exist throughout eternity. Those with God will have eternal life, those separated from God will have eternal death, or the second death, in the lake of fire.
This thread is not very different than the one about rethinking hell. Why is there eternal suffering? Sometimes words have more than one meaning. In other words, the lake of fire could be a place where souls are tormented because the false prophet and the beast are there. It could be a replay of the events of this world, relived over and over and therefore the events are described as eternal suffering, while in eternity the events are actually in the past.
Malachi
Member
It is best to avoid projecting our own ideas into something which we cannot fully understand. The facts are as follows:
Rev 21:8
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 14:9-11
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
1. There is a literal Lake of Fire (no need to spiritualize this)
2. This is the second death (the first being physical)
3. All sinners, evildoers and idolaters who do not repent are in Hell
4. Hell is a manifestation of the wrath of God against sin and evil
5. Hell is a place of torment (body and soul)
6. Hell is comprised of fire and brimstone (eternal and intense burning)
7. Since burning produce smoke, there is the smoke of torment also
8. Hell is indeed eternal -- for ever and ever can mean nothing less
9. The inhabitants of Hell will never rest day nor night
IF THIS IS A TERRIBLE PICTURE, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.
What support do you have from Scripture for this view? How can eternity, which is in the future from our perspective, be events that "are actually in the past". Wouldn't that just be a bad dream or nightmare?
The wording of Rev 20 isn't vague at all. There are going to be future events.
1. antichrist and false prophet will be thrown alive into the lake of fire. Rev 19:20
2. the devil (satan) will be thrown into the lake of fire, and THEY (all of them) will be tormented day and night (24/7) forever and ever. Rev 20:10
3. human beings who do not possess the gift of eternal life will be cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:15
Unless one can demonstrate from the text that there is more than one "lake of fire", we know that satan, the antichrist, his false prophet, and all of humanity who never received the gift of eternal life will end up there, and THEY ALL will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Future events.
Butch5
Member
It's not necessary and won't happen.
Biblical support please.
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psa 37:20 KJV)
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TimothyW
Member
Stop. Here is where you are disagreeing with scripture.
Psalm 37:20 says "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."
Scripture says that the wicked shall perish. You say that they don't suffer physical death. How can you say that when the scriptures say that they do? Whatever your view is, it has to take the whole of the Bible into consideration. If the wicked don't perish, then you have a contradiction with the scripture that says that they do. But if the fire of the lake consumes the wicked and they perish there after having been thrown in alive, the apparent contradiction is eliminated.
So how do you reconcile your view that the wicked don't suffer physical death with the Bible's statement that they do?
Thank you for the response. Yes of course from our perspective eternity would seem like the future. However from eternity all things temporal have already passed. That is easily proven in that there exists the proclaiming of future events by prophets even to very exact detail. The bible speaks of all events as in the past after this manner, right up to the opening of a new scroll by the Lamb slain.
Ecclesiastes 3:14-17King James Version (KJV)
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.
16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Yes these are future events to us here in a temporal existence. But I am suggesting that these events are in time, and therefore when we read about eternal torment and eternal damnation, it may be referring to a scene played over and over in heaven. Here again is a scripture that appears to be speaking from a point in time after the tribulation period and after the wrath of God.
Isaiah 66:23-24King James Version (KJV)
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith theLord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Respectfully, I think I am being misunderstood. I am familiar with the scriptures you have provided. None of them are in disagreement with what I have said. I also am not sure what you mean when you say about a "literal lake of fire, there is no need to spiritualize this". For I do not contest the existence of a literal lake of fire.
chessman
Member
Revelation 16:13-14 (LEB) And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet three unclean spirits like frogs. For they are the spirits of demons ...
John says The Beast and The False Prophet in his vision are demons that have unclean spirits coming out of their mouths.
Other than your opinion, what Biblical evidence can you post that they are in fact not demons but rather are humans?
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Malachi
Member
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was referring to "Events from the past"... "relived over and over" in your post. Since that is not part of the biblical description, it would be unwise to suggest this. It is a possibility, but then again there is a possibility that the focus would be on the future, and how awful that will be since it will never end. If we limit our understanding to what is written e.g. "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" it is terrible enough. Worms feed on dead bodies, but to have worms feeding on living bodies over and over for eternity? That speaks of the exclusion of hope of restoration, and the eternality of the punishment (Vine).
Malachi
Member
Of course the wicked perish -- not only die -- but die horrible deaths, especially those judgments shown in the Revelation. But that is not the end of the matter. After a horrible physical death, there is something even worse -- the eternal Lake of Fire (Rev 20:11-15). THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. Separation of the sinner from God for all eternity. Death is separation. The first death is separation of the soul and spirit from the body.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Actually when I referred to "Events from the past"... "relived over and over", I was pointing out that Isaiah 66: 23-24 seems to be saying exactly that. When I say reliving over and over, I am meaning that those who are viewing the mountain of flesh, where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, are looking upon a past event replayed every Sabbath. Yes it is supposed to be abhorrent. Is flesh not simply in scientific terminology just matter? Is it not just made from the dust?