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Eternal damnation

Chopper said:
You guys make me chuckle. :lol Why? Because I think that you guys, MIGHT have got your heads together to come up with this "death" argument just to stir up every one who believes in eternal torment for the lost. You Tim & Chessman are not dummies! You both are very intelligent Brothers. And it's obvious to me that you know a vast amount of knowledge on what happens to "believers" and those who reject Christ Jesus....IMO, this whole argument of annihilationism of the "lost" is just a game to your guys.

I don't say these things to cast a blanket of insults :grumpy, on the contrary, I respect both of you in the ways that you defend your position. You both have brilliant minds and know fully well that after all has been said and done, you believe the same as I :nod:poke. Hey, you have the right and freedom to continue with this little game of yours, frankly, we have discussed this doctrine before, several times, and you know very well where I stand. Arguing with you two, is like :wall

I love you both and applaud you :clap for your knowledge of the Scriptures that you think supports your theory of annihilation of the lost. I don't buy into it because it's not really biblical. NOW, don't come back with a question, like you usually do :nono, "it's not biblical? Show scripture to prove it's wrong." Oh well, I like playing this game with you :boing because it drives me into the Word of God, and when I go into the Word it usually causes me to understand how right I am. :sohappy

Love you guys, carry on.
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What is causing you to not see that both views are contained in the bible, maybe the disciples didn't have a full understanding of hell. As Paul said "we see through a glass darkly" even Paul admits he was not 100% sure of everything, but so many of you are?
 
Annihilation isn't anywhere to be found in Gods word, there is only the gospel of Jesus Christ.. Jesus came to save us from eternal damnation..

tob
 
FreeGrace said:
[ToS 2.4]


Let's be clear. The word perish doesn't occur in Rev 19 or 20. And I believe you're the one who thinks "perish" from Psa 37 means annihilate. As I recall, you have already greatly misunderstood my view.


I've explained what that means. And no one has refuted any of it.


Uh, yeah, it does mean exactly that. Because "day and night" means 24/7 and "forever and ever" means exactly that.


I'm sure you've seen the Luke verses which reference the lake of fire which says "where their worm NEVER dies". [ToS 2.4]


Since I've already given this thread ALL the meanings of the Hebrew word for "perish", you have no point. Nearly all words have a semantic range of meanings. You seem quite stuck on just one idea. Please go back and review my post.


Well for one thing, the word "perish" doesn't occur in either Rev 19 or 20. But the words "day and night forever and ever" DO occur there.

How about this: just explain what, exactly, the word 'perish' means to you. Thanks.
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[Response to deleted comment]
You asked me to explain what the word "perish" means. "Perish" means to die. To no longer be alive. Perish also means to rot, as in "these tomatoes have perished", but that is not the context here. When a person perishes, they die. They do not remain alive and conscious after they have perished.

I don't know what you mean by the "Luke verses which reference the lake of fire which says where their worm never dies". Is this a typo?
I know of a parable in Luke that speaks of Hades, the intermediate state. This has nothing to do with the final state of the wicked.
I know of a passage in Mark that says "where the worm dieth not". Mark 9:48. Did you know that the same wording occurs in Isaiah 66:24?
Here is the passage:
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Notice that this speaks of dead bodies, not eternally living dead people.

[Response to deleted comment]

Also, words having a semantic range does not give you licence to just grab the definition that you like the best. You must look at the context and determine the usage that the author intended. When the word "perish" is used in John 3:16, it is used to contrast the other group which receives eternal life. The context indicates that it actually does mean "to die". When the word "death" is used in Romans 6:23, it is used as a contrast to "life". This indicates that the word actually does mean death, the absence of life.

I know that I am not going to convince you to change your mind, and accept that the wages of sin is death and not eternal conscious torment. I know that you are too invested in your doctrine to exchange it for any other doctrine. It is my hope that anyone else who reads this thread will see the truth of what I am saying, even if you are not convinced.
 
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turnorburn said:
Annihilation isn't anywhere to be found in Gods word, there is only the gospel of Jesus Christ.. Jesus came to save us from eternal damnation..

tob
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We use the Biblical words "destruction" and "perish".
Also death as in "the wages of sin is death".

The Bible never once said that the wages of sin is eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever. Makes you think, doesn't it.
 
Not going to play your game Tim we've been over this umptine times in umptine threads, just go and dig out all of your old threads they all deal with the same subject matter..

tob
 
turnorburn said:
Annihilation isn't anywhere to be found in Gods word, there is only the gospel of Jesus Christ.. Jesus came to save us from eternal damnation..

tob
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"eternal damnation" isn't anywhere to be found in God's word.
But the fact that those who reject the Son of God will perish IS found in God's word, in John 3:16 among other places.
The destruction of the wicked is found in God's word, 2 Peter 2:1 is a handy example.
 
turnorburn said:
Not going to play your game Tim we've been over this umptine times in umptine threads, just go and dig out all of your old threads they all deal with the same subject matter..

tob
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Yes, I believe this is important subject matter. Important enough to look into what the Bible actually says about it.
 
turnorburn said:
Annihilation isn't anywhere to be found in Gods word, there is only the gospel of Jesus Christ.. Jesus came to save us from eternal damnation..

tob
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So all those people arguing the opposite opinion are wrong? No, you're both right.
(Edited: Tos 2.1 "This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act." A&T Guidelines: "Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture." and "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah)
 
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poetofparables said:
So all those people arguing the opposite opinion are wrong? No, you're both right.
(Edited: Tos 2.1 "This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity (or declare that it is false) and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act." A&T Guidelines: "Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture." and "Subsequent opposing responses should include references to supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation for the contrary understanding." Obadiah)
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Toby carefully worded his objection, so he would be technically correct. The word "Annihilation" is not found in the Bible. But then again, NONE of us have EVER said that is.
The word "Destruction" IS found in the Bible, and this is what the Bible says is the fate of the wicked.
 
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TimothyW said:
Toby carefully worded his objection, so he would be technically correct. The word "Annihilation" is not found in the Bible. But then again, NONE of us have EVER said that is.
The word "Destruction" IS found in the Bible, and this is what the Bible says is the fate of the wicked.
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Why don't you all just ask God what the truth is? Come back here and post only what God tells you, and we will see.
 
(Removed, response to deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)
 
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(Removed, response to deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)
 
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