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Eternal hell with new creation?

T. E. Smith

T. E. Smith

Romantic Rationalist
Member
The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
Then it is useless. I mean, it teaches nothing at all as there is no suffering rich man in hell and no Lazarus in peace and comfort. It’s nothing at all as it never happened and never will. Useless.
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I do not know why you are attempting to argue with me on this. I have not asserted whether the story is or is not a parable. I do not know what you are trying to help me understand. A parable spoken by Jesus is just as educational as an actual event. It doesn't matter and therefore arguing whether Jesus' teachings are parables or fact, is pointless. It's an example of foolish controversies. So, I will just leave this here.

22 Pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
2 Timothy 2:22-23 NKJV
 
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WIP said:
I do not know why you are attempting to argue with me on this. I have not asserted whether the story is or is not a parable. I do not know what you are trying to help me understand. A parable spoken by Jesus is just as educational as an actual event. It doesn't matter and therefore arguing whether Jesus' teachings are parables or fact, is pointless. It's an example of foolish controversies. So, I will just leave this here.

22 Pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
2 Timothy 2:22-23 NKJV
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It’s not foolish. If a person doesn’t know whether God actually acted in real peoples lives but they simply draw some kind of spiritual lesson, then they’ll never believe God will work in their need.
 
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Free said:
I just don't see that living in sin and doing evil as being comparable to hell. All those things still happened without God giving up full control to evil. Remember Job. God allowed Satan to do things to Job but kept Satan within certain bounds. Jesus speaks of hell almost exclusively as being the future place of eternal torment for unbelievers.
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It's great to see some of us understand Hell, as the Bible presents it.
 
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Free said:
Gehenna (hell) refers to the final destination of unbelievers (which Revelation identifies as the lake of fire)
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Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

According to this verse how do you explain hell as being the lake of fire since it is cast into the lake of fire.
 
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T. E. Smith said:
Perhaps, but both sides can claim a full context. Often the Bible is just unclear.
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Full context can only come from the scriptures, not man's theology or a carnal logical understanding. This is why we ask members to support themselves with scripture for what they present so we can take what they give and study for ourselves by praying and asking the Holy Spirit to teach us. We also need to be opened for correction as we do err at times and the Holy Spirit will always work through others to correct us when need be.

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
Fair enough. I mistakenly assume others are very familiar with the scriptures. My error. Which bit would you like scriptures for? I’ll see what I have time to augment.
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Only referring to the future as there is no need to backtrack. We have many young Christians or those who are just searching that do not know the scriptures and this is why we need to give scripture so they can search them out.
 
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for_his_glory said:
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

According to this verse how do you explain hell as being the lake of fire since it is cast into the lake of fire.
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Here is John Wesley's view. He interprets the casting as something like a metaphor: "That is, were abolished for ever; for neither the righteous nor the wicked were to die any more: their souls and bodies were no more to be separated. Consequently, neither death nor hades [the KJV translation of hell] could any more have a being."
 
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T. E. Smith said:
Here is John Wesley's view. He interprets the casting as something like a metaphor: "That is, were abolished for ever; for neither the righteous nor the wicked were to die any more: their souls and bodies were no more to be separated. Consequently, neither death nor hades [the KJV translation of hell] could any more have a being."
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Exactly as when final judgements are rendered after Christ returns there will be no more death nor the need of the grave (hell).

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell

Hell only means the grave as through Christ we who are His own at His coming have victory over the grave in the resurrection as being overcomers of this world, 1Corintians 15:54, 55. Hell/grave will be cast into the lake of fire as there will be no more need of the grave after everyone has been resurrected for the purpose of God's final judgement on the last day when Christ returns. The second death means those who are Spiritually dead listed in Rev 21:8 that have rejected truth and also those who preach another gospel as no truth is found in them.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 
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Free said:
It could be argues that it is also the current place when unbelievers die but it doesn't really matter.
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"but it doesn't really matter." It does matter. Why, because whatever you believe about God, is how you view His character. Example: You state that unbelievers upon death go to Hell. This is not according to (Rev. 20: 11-15) and prophecy is the more sure word of God. (2 Peter 1:19) So, initially one would be promoting an untruth.

Secondly, ones concept of God's love would be lessened, because they would understand that God would have the wicked who have died as early as Gain, serving out their punitive judgement, when according to (Rev. 20:11-15) that portion of God's judgement is still more that a thousand years in the future.

What would you think of a judge who sentenced your child to serve a life sentence on their first appearance in court for the alleged crime? Certainly a just and Loving God would do no less.
 
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for_his_glory said:
Only referring to the future as there is no need to backtrack. We have many young Christians or those who are just searching that do not know the scriptures and this is why we need to give scripture so they can search them out.
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Did you ever hear the quote Luther says when standing before authorities to give an answer or retract his publications? He said that unless he was convinced by scripture or sound reasoning, he would not retract. Sound reasoning was what Jesus gave as well as scripture. It is of great value as well.
 
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Goldwing said:
"but it doesn't really matter." It does matter. Why, because whatever you believe about God, is how you view His character. Example: You state that unbelievers upon death go to Hell. This is not according to (Rev. 20: 11-15) and prophecy is the more sure word of God. (2 Peter 1:19) So, initially one would be promoting an untruth.
What would you think of a judge who sentenced your child to serve a life sentence on their first appearance in court for the alleged crime? Certainly a just and Loving God would do no less.
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Please make up an example that fits. The representative example is a judge who saw the accused commit crime after crime, offered help to stop but refused all help preferring the pleasures of doing wrong to others for personal gain and this over 60 years who sentences them to eternity away from anyone they could harm. That this place, actually like jails in some countries, is also full of others who also enjoy doing harm to others. It’s just that the accused is a lot weaker than they are.
 
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T. E. Smith said:
Perhaps, but both sides can claim a full context. Often the Bible is just unclear.
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Actually it’s not. I’ve noticed all false teaching picks out bits it likes and ignores the rest. But, more importantly, false teaching always appeals to something unsavory (sinful) in those who embrace it.

Let’s pick a known false group, JWs. Their teaching assures the adherents that they are the elect because they belong to the “right” group. They joined the correct club which renders them exclusive rights to Heaven. This appeals very much to human pride as they are assured that they are superior to others.

This about this in terms of your church. Do you see the wrong in human hearts that their theology appeals to? You can see how this changes the believer’s character in time. This is what Jesus meant by looking at the fruit to see if the tree is good or bad.

So what is good theology, you ask? Glad you did. While most christians find a theology they like and then go to the Bible for isolated verses to back that view, there are a few who, like the Bereans, “study the scriptures to see if these things be so.” Some go to the Bible to find truth. Rare but real.
 
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