Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Am I understanding you correctly that you believe the story never happened so you believe it is a parable and if a parable, there is nothing to be learned from it? If so, then you are also saying that everything Jesus taught using parables have no meaning or teaching to be gained from them.

Once again this debate is not necessarily relevant unless Jesus' parables are now known to communicate bad theology.

 

[WIP]

Once again this debate is not necessarily relevant unless Jesus' parables are now known to communicate bad theology.

There's no debate. She made some comments and I'm trying to understand her point of view.

 

[christian1724]

Well that is something to consider about the 24 elders , interesting thought .

T. E. Smith since we are talking about hell have you ever considered maybe we already know what the gates of hell look like ?

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I had this thought that the Black Holes we see in space maybe the gates to hell . I did a search for the first time tonight and found this article .

Black Holes and Hell: Surprising Similarities

I've thought about this too (black holes being like a sort of hell). I've wondered if it is possible to reach the event horizon (from the point of reference of the one traveling (accelerating?) toward a black hole). (Supposed) scientists popularly teach that changes in speed are accompanied with changes in time frame and dimension. Not that I don't accept that, but such changes in energy, mass, time, dimension... would be experienced from a different perspective than that of those who are left in the previous time frame thereby causing me to wonder if the 'event horizon' destination is even reachable. Well, it's just a thought anyway.

I think the analogy of a black hole type of hell and the darkening of the soul(?) is good analogy though. At some point the Holy Spirit may no longer accompany a person on their journey towards the desires of the heart/flesh. How would such a person recover from that? Is it possible?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Am I understanding you correctly that you believe the story never happened so you believe it is a parable and if a parable, there is nothing to be learned from it?

Incorrect. I believe Jesus saw those men in hell and was recounting the observation. He mercifully didn’t tell the crowd the name of the suffering rich man.

If so, then you are also saying that everything Jesus taught using parables have no meaning or teaching to be gained from them.

Good question. I thought about this a lot. If the events found happen in real life (people lose stuff, men get beaten up and robbed on the road, fathers give sons their inheritance, sowers plant seeds, etc. If these events really happen to people, the lesson they teach is equally real. If a take never happened to real people (like Cinderella) then it teaches us nothing. If the good/reward in the take never happened to anyone, it promises nothing at all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Once again this debate is not necessarily relevant unless Jesus' parables are now known to communicate bad theology.

Most of them aren’t told to
communicate theology, are they? And if so, the best.

 

[Free]

I agree on John 10:‘17. However, Gehenna was / Is a real place in Israel with a rich history dating back to Solomon. It is a physical place where not only normal folk, but also Kings of Israel offered their children to the fires of Molech and Chemosh. These were brutal murders of their innocent children being burned alive. Imagine the screams of an innocent baby being rolled into the belly of a red hot idol with its arms stretched out to receive the child. Imagine the screams of a mother watching their child be burned alive.

Now, Imagine what type of person would willingly place a child in the red hot arms of an idol to be burned alive. A person who’s ears were deaf to the screams of that child and blind to the pain it was causing on that child.

Now, imagine a mother doing the same. One that not only willingly, but joyfully offering up her own child.

This is what hell looks like on earth. This is exile. Exile is when God removes one from his presence and from the land. It is not only a physical state, but it is also a spiritual state. When we die, we either remain United with Christ, or exiled.

Because of this, I have a very difficult time grasping Gehenna as a metaphor. I see it more as not only a current state, but also a future state. We either remain in our sin (lives of hell) or we turn from our evil ways and follow the ways of God.

I just don't see that living in sin and doing evil as being comparable to hell. All those things still happened without God giving up full control to evil. Remember Job. God allowed Satan to do things to Job but kept Satan within certain bounds. Jesus speaks of hell almost exclusively as being the future place of eternal torment for unbelievers. It could be argues that it is also the current place when unbelievers die but it doesn't really matter. In the very least, Jesus only once uses it--"child of hell"--to refer to a spiritual state. Even then it is a Hebraism.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Most of them aren’t told to
communicate theology, are they? And if so, the best.

Yes I think most parables are told to communicate theology. Even if they weren't, they still shouldn't include bad theology.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes I think most parables are told to communicate theology. Even if they weren't, they still shouldn't include bad theology.

Can you give an example please?

 

[for_his_glory]

People have been, healed, raised from the dead, the gospel has changed the world as governments moved away from tyranny, just laws have been established, I could go on and on. Did you have something specific in mind?

People have always been healed even before the resurrection of Christ. Not sure about people being raised from the dead as the resurrection of the dead has not happened yet. Governments are even more corrupt then they were in the days Jesus walked the earth and after His ascension so I do not see what has changed from the word of God. But this has nothing to do with the OP and needs to be another thread.

 

[for_his_glory]

So you think they died and went back into the grave again? That must have been a bummer for them. “He led captivity captive.” He preached to the souls in whatever name you want to give the place where they were until Jesus’ death and resurrection.

Once again:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

That’s not the typical “Gospel Presentation” but there’s no use telling the choir what it well knows. Better to preach what it might not have considered.

I really wish you would support what you say with scripture, especially when you say that's not a typical Gospel presentation that you are giving.

 

[for_his_glory]

I know the dispensational theology quite well. I don’t believe any of it.

These verses are straight from the Bible and have nothing to do with the false teachings of dispensationalist.

 

[for_his_glory]

I just went through 15 different versions of the Bible and most of them use the word Hades with only a couple using Sheol, grave or hell.

In Hebrew Hades is used for Sheol denoting a dark region of the dead.

In Greek Hades means unseen, the abode of the dead.

In the Old English Hades means the state or resting place of the dead.

Jesus never used the English word hell and never used any Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word meaning what most people believe what hell means.

I feel we need to put more emphasis on the definition of the word Hades instead of all the various meanings of the word hell.

 

[Free]

I just went through 15 different versions of the Bible and most of them use the word Hades with only a couple using Sheol, grave or hell.

In Hebrew Hades is used for Sheol denoting a dark region of the dead.

In Greek Hades means unseen, the abode of the dead.

In the Old English Hades means the state or resting place of the dead.

Yes, this point has been made by several people.

Jesus never used the English word hell and never used any Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word meaning what most people believe what hell means.

Yes, he certainly did. I have made this point a few times. He used the work Gehenna, which is the word most often translated as 'hell' in the versions which mainly keep Hades as 'Hades.' For example, it is translated as 'hell' 13 times in the gospels in the ESV, whereas Hades is translated as 'hell' once (Matt 16:18). Gehenna (hell) refers to the final destination of unbelievers (which Revelation identifies as the lake of fire) 12 times and is used once to refer to those who are excessively wicked (Matt 23:15).

https://christianforums.net/threads/eternal-hell-with-new-creation.90423/page-5#post-1667928

I feel we need to put more emphasis on the definition of the word Hades instead of all the various meanings of the word hell.

We need to put emphasis on the difference between Hades and hell (the final destination of unbelievers) and figure out why people seem unable to differentiate between the two as Jesus did.

 

[WIP]

Incorrect. I believe Jesus saw those men in hell and was recounting the observation. He mercifully didn’t tell the crowd the name of the suffering rich man.

Good question. I thought about this a lot. If the events found happen in real life (people lose stuff, men get beaten up and robbed on the road, fathers give sons their inheritance, sowers plant seeds, etc. If these events really happen to people, the lesson they teach is equally real. If a take never happened to real people (like Cinderella) then it teaches us nothing. If the good/reward in the take never happened to anyone, it promises nothing at all.

If you believe parables don't teach anything then I think you may be missing the point of a lot of Jesus' teaching for He taught much using parables and each one presents a meaning or more. A parable by definition is a story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson like an analogy. The gospels record parable after parable.

33 And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it.
34 But without a parable He did not speak to them. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.
Mark 4:33-34 NKJV

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
“I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”
Matthew 13:34-35 NKJV

 

[Goldwing]

Well that is something to consider about the 24 elders , interesting thought .

It is a fact that one does not understand any one of the seventeen prophecies in Dan. and Rev. until you understand them all, because they fit together and overlap at times to form the bigger picture. I've been a student of these for over thirty years and I understand the big picture.

Rev. 4 and 5, is about the exaltation of Jesus that took place in heaven in 1798, at the time the little horn of (Dan. 7) [papacy received it's deadly wound] Jesus was found worthy and given sovereign power that He didn't possess before. (Dan. 7:13,14; Rev. 5:12) Why? all of prophecy supports that the Father recused Himself from His thrown, and requires Jesus, to finish carrying out His (the Father's) plans to complete the sin problem.

Jesus begins the work by setting the word wide stage for the Judgement of the living by opening the first two seals, and in 1844 prophecy indicates Jesus open the third seal and began the judgement of the dead by opening the books, of records and personally looking over the life of each individual. It would then make sense to conclude, that the 24 elders are humans, since they are given front row seats to the judgement of mankind, and they can testify being witness, to the fairness of this Judgement. God is all about transparency.

What does this say about the Father, who requires Jesus, who has lived with us for thirty years and knows our infirmities, and weaknesses, to also be our Judge. Truly God is Love.

 

[JLB]

If you believe parables don't teach anything then I think you may be missing the point of a lot of Jesus' teaching for He taught much using parables and each one presents a meaning or more.

She believes just the opposite.

She believes the parables do in fact teach relevant and literal points.

Futhermore she believes the rich man and Lazarus are not a parable but an actual event that Jesus recounts, with real literal actual people, in a real literal actual place in the heart of the earth.



Before Jesus was resurrected, paradise was in the heart of the earth, along with hell, in which they were separated by a great canyon, dividing hell from paradise.


Jesus said to the thief on the cross, this day, you will be with me in paradise, thus we understand that Jesus descended down into the heart of the earth for three days, and rose on the third day, so paradise, (Abraham and Lazarus were in paradise), while the rich man was in hell, being tormented in fire.


Many scriptures can be used to validate these things.





JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If you believe parables don't teach anything then I think you may be missing the point of a lot of Jesus' teaching for He taught much using parables and each one presents a meaning or more.

You misquoted me here which is a violation of the rules. What my statement was that if a story (any account) has events that never ever happened in real life then we cannot hope that they will happen for us. No father tells his daughter to treat her sisters well so a prince will come and carry her to a better life. All of Jesus’ parables are plausible events. No names are mentioned because they give no information and are not necessary. Losing, finding, rewarding, serving, punishing, etc., these all happen in real life. The point is the teaching that these common events can bring.

The account of Lazarus is different. Those events we can not possible experience in this life. Therefore they tell us of the future for some if they don’t take care. That is the point if that account. Those men really were where Jesus described and their end is the message.

33 And with many such parables He spoke the word to them as they were able to hear it.
34 But without a parable He did not speak to them. And when they were alone, He explained all things to His disciples.
Mark 4:33-34 NKJV

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:
“I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”
Matthew 13:34-35 NK

It’s pretty silly to use a Bible verse that says Jesus told parables to prove Jesus told parables. It’s a bit like the “argument” that the Bible is true because the Bible says it’s true.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

These verses are straight from the Bible and have nothing to do with the false teachings of dispensationalist.

All false teaching uses verses straight from the Bible, 100%. They aren’t false because they fail to use (and I do mean USE) Bible verses.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It is exactly what he said in the Great Divorce. He claimed hell applied backward: for non-believers they will always have been in hell. This idea is now extremely popular.

Ok, I stand corrected. Thanks.