Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Gehenna has its roots going all the way back to Solomon who offered his children as sacrifice resulting in the kingdom becoming divided.

It was originally called the "Valley of the son of Hinnom", and it is actually mentioned long before that: Joshua 15:8, on the dividing line between Judah and Benjamin: "And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward" (KJV).

Jeremiah 7:31 speaks of it as a place where kings offered their children: "And they go on building the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire—which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind" (NRSV).

Here is what the Jewish Encyclopedia has to say on it: https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna#345

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."

 

[Free]

Gehenna has its roots going all the way back to Solomon who offered his children as sacrifice resulting in the kingdom becoming divided.

Since this physical place also represents a spiritual aspect why do you think Jesus would minimize either on a mere metaphor?

And if Jesus only uses this as a metaphor for a future destination, what then becomes of the physical reminder just outside of Jerusalem? What purpose does that hold?

I learned a long time ago that the physical and spiritual are always connected and when we try and uncouple them, we risk missing the whole picture.

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. The purpose of a metaphor is to compare two unlike things, usually for rhetorical effect. Jesus uses them often to point to truth. For example, in John 10:7 and 9, Jesus refers to himself as "the door of the sheep." We know that he isn't a literal door; he means that he is the only way to salvation. This minimizes neither what a door is nor that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

When using Gehenna as a metaphor, I don't see how either the physical place or the spiritual aspect are minimized. The whole point is that Jesus' listeners know very well what was done there and what that place stood for--it was a place of evil and was, at that time, a place where all manner of garbage and bodies of criminals and carcasses of animals were burned in a perpetual fire. It is precisely the knowledge of the physical place and spiritual aspect that gives the metaphor its impact.

Several times Jesus uses Gehenna as a symbol to point to the final destination of the wicked, the place of punishment. It's a place so terrible that it is better for one to cut off one's hand or foot or tear out one's eye than end up there. In other words, do whatever is necessary to rid oneself of sin and not end up there. The actual Gehenna may not exist on the redeemed earth, as it could be in any location God chooses.

 

[Goldwing]

So when Stephen was dying and saw Jesus standing at the throne, Jesus was just waving and indicating “see ja in a couple of millennia….sleep well.”

Jesus, Moses, and Elijah have gone to heaven. I also believe that the 24 elders that are seated before the Fathers thrown (Rec. 4) are those who came up out of their grave when Christ came out of His. (Mat. 27:52,53) They were taken to heaven as God wants human witnesses to see how He handles the sin problem.

Yes Dorothy, all who die sleep in death until either the first or second resurrection, this allows God time for judging everyone as to being saved or lost. This judgment is carried on with all the heavenly angles and the twenty four elders as witnesses. (Rev. 4and5) Many who misunderstand this issue don't seem to realize that if the saints go to heaven at death, then naturally the lost go to Hell at death. This is not what the Bible teaches a just and merciful God does not reward either the lost or saved before His Judgement. The wicked receive there sentence in the second resurrection (Rev. 20: 11-25)

If you had an adult child in whom you knew never put their faith in Christ, and they passed away, would you not have piece of mind in knowing they were not suffering in Hell year after year, and as much as another 1,000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked? God's justice and mercy is even greater than what you realize.

 

[Goldwing]

Hell has as much to do with our current state as it does with our eternal state.
Eternity has no beginning and it has no end. As a result, we are experiencing eternity now. In simple terms, Eternity, by its very definition does not magically start when we die. Eternity is always now…. Today.

"Hell has as much to do with our current state as it does with our eternal state." This makes no sense, because Hell has been designed by a righteous, just and merciful God to rid God's creation, of those who have been given free choice, and have chose to live a life in rebellion to God's laws. Thus, after He has passed judgement on all, prior to His second return, and then after 1,000 yrs. the wicked are resurrected to hear their sentence, then they are cast into the, "Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20: 11-15). No, this Hell does not exist until then. Yes, the term hell is often used today, to describe difficult circumstances, but it is certainly not the Hell, for which the wicked shall face, and of which you appear to make no distinction.

"Eternity is always now…. Today." This also makes no sense. You, really do find it hard to except (Rm. 6:23) It states, that eternal life is a gift of God, and only to those who put their faith in Christ. And the gift is given to those of the first resurrection, at Christ second coming. And according to (Rm. 6:23) the wicked receive the second death of which there will be no possibility of a resurrection, as they are executed by God, and will be eternally dead. Thus the knowledge of sin made know to the universe, and thankfully, it shall not rise again.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't think you quite understood my post. I didn't say the story of the rich man and Lazarus was not true. For_his_glory said that the story was a parable and I was saying that whether it is a parable or an actual event is debatable and has been debated for a long time. Whether it is or is not, the teaching is the same nonetheless.

If it never happened and therefore never will, what does it teach? Because what you tell me it teaches, I can tell you that the never happened to either of those men and so will never happen to any man.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

For example?

People have been, healed, raised from the dead, the gospel has changed the world as governments moved away from tyranny, just laws have been established, I could go on and on. Did you have something specific in mind?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What you are speaking about that happened over 2000 years ago was that many, not all, were raised from the grave when the earth quaked and Jesus yielded up the Ghost. They were brought back to life and entered into the city, not heaven, so others would know Jesus as in "I am Lord" as only Jesus has power to raise anyone from the dead. This is what caused the centurion and many that were with him to believe this was the Son of God that hung on the cross.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

So you think they died and went back into the grave again? That must have been a bummer for them. “He led captivity captive.” He preached to the souls in whatever name you want to give the place where they were until Jesus’ death and resurrection.

 

[T. E. Smith]

It is often stated that for non-believers, life on Earth is hell already. As far as I can tell this was invented by C. S. Lewis. I have seen this idea in this thread. But the Bible never says anything like that.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I would say that is the only thing that has changed. Maybe you do need to lay out the Gospel to show me what has changed in order to understand what you are talking about. I am being serious.

When Jesus died the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to
bottom signifying that the possibility for each man to walk through his life in close fellowship to God was possible. You know what is required for that to be true in a life already.

Before Jesus there were a selected and limited number of people who had the Holy Spirit. Now that door is open to whosoever will come.

What is more, there is now power to defeat the strangle hold the Devil had in earth as Jesus has the authority. Through that authority his messengers have gone into the earth and brought justice and peace and healing and too many blessings to name. “Christianity is the immortal seed of freedom on the earth.”

That’s not the typical “Gospel Presentation” but there’s no use telling the choir what it well knows. Better to preach what it might not have considered.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It is often stated that for non-believers, life on Earth is hell already. As far as I can tell this was invented by C. S. Lewis. I have seen this idea in this thread. But the Bible never says anything like that.

That isn’t what Lewis said. When unbelievers enter hell, earth will have likely seemed heaven in comparison.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

No one has ever entered the third Heaven where God sits on His throne. Third Heaven is where God and the holy angels and spirits of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27; Psalms 2:4; John 3:13

Jesus only returns once on the last day, John 5:28, 29; 6:40, and at that time will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire, Rev 19:11-21. Jesus will then send His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather together those who are His own as the door of salvation is then closed forever and final judgment made, Matthew 24:29-31.

Revelation 22:
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

I know the dispensational theology quite well. I don’t believe any of it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus, Moses, and Elijah have gone to heaven. I also believe that the 24 elders that are seated before the Fathers thrown (Rec. 4) are those who came up out of their grave when Christ came out of His. (Mat. 27:52,53) They were taken to heaven as God wants human witnesses to see how He handles the sin problem.

Yes Dorothy, all who die sleep in death until either the first or second resurrection, this allows God time for judging everyone as to being saved or lost. This judgment is carried on with all the heavenly angles and the twenty four elders as witnesses. (Rev. 4and5) Many who misunderstand this issue don't seem to realize that if the saints go to heaven at death, then naturally the lost go to Hell at death. This is not what the Bible teaches a just and merciful God does not reward either the lost or saved before His Judgement. The wicked receive there sentence in the second resurrection (Rev. 20: 11-25)

If you had an adult child in whom you knew never put their faith in Christ, and they passed away, would you not have piece of mind in knowing they were not suffering in Hell year after year, and as much as another 1,000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked? God's justice and mercy is even greater than what you realize.

I don’t believe any of what I believe because it makes me feel better. On the contrary, embracing the truth requires abandoning many much more comfortable positions.

The truth is expensive and will cost a man his more palatable notions. Lies are sweeter. But truth is rick solid and a man can build his life upon it and the struggles won’t tear it down. What is more, a foundation of truth enables a man to gain understanding of God and man. It’s awesome.

 

[T. E. Smith]

That isn’t what Lewis said. When unbelievers enter hell, earth will have likely seemed heaven in comparison.

It is exactly what he said in the Great Divorce. He claimed hell applied backward: for non-believers they will always have been in hell. This idea is now extremely popular.

 

[hawkman]

Jesus, Moses, and Elijah have gone to heaven. I also believe that the 24 elders that are seated before the Fathers thrown (Rec. 4) are those who came up out of their grave when Christ came out of His. (Mat. 27:52,53) They were taken to heaven as God wants human witnesses to see how He handles the sin problem.

Well that is something to consider about the 24 elders , interesting thought .

T. E. Smith since we are talking about hell have you ever considered maybe we already know what the gates of hell look like ?

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I had this thought that the Black Holes we see in space maybe the gates to hell . I did a search for the first time tonight and found this article .

Black Holes and Hell: Surprising Similarities

 

[stovebolts]

"Hell has as much to do with our current state as it does with our eternal state." This makes no sense, because Hell has been designed by a righteous, just and merciful God to rid God's creation, of those who have been given free choice, and have chose to live a life in rebellion to God's laws.

Hi Goldwing,
Respectfully, I partially disagree. I find your understanding in this matter lacking and I suggest you study this matter more dilegently.

eternity is always now…. Today." This also makes no sense. You, really do find it hard to except (Rm. 6:23) It states, that eternal life is a gift of God, and only to those who put their faith in Christ. And the gift is given to those of the first resurrection,

It makes no since to you because you lack a full biblical understanding in this area. When you claim I find it hard to accept Romans 6:23, you do so falsely by imposing your limited understanding of the matter upon me.

Romans 6 By being a slave to sin, we bring about death. However, if we die to self, we can be buried with Christ and rise out of the baptismal waters United with Christ in new life. If we do not die, we cannot be made alive. John 12:24 truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.


In regard to being in a state of deadness, yet still breathing and walking this planet, Paul writes,
Ephesians 2:1-3
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

This is a picture of Gehenna aka hell which started with King Solomon offering his children in the fire on Mt. Olive which rapididly became an accepted norm in Israel in the valley of Hinnom. This resulted in exile from the land because they exiled themselves from God.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Well that is something to consider about the 24 elders , interesting thought .

T. E. Smith since we are talking about hell have you ever considered maybe we already know what the gates of hell look like ?

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I had this thought that the Black Holes we see in space maybe the gates to hell . I did a search for the first time tonight and found this article .

Black Holes and Hell: Surprising Similarities

Black holes are like Hell? I wrote a paper on black holes but can't say Hell ever occurred to me. Still doesn't.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. The purpose of a metaphor is to compare two unlike things, usually for rhetorical effect. Jesus uses them often to point to truth. For example, in John 10:7 and 9, Jesus refers to himself as "the door of the sheep." We know that he isn't a literal door; he means that he is the only way to salvation. This minimizes neither what a door is nor that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

I agree on John 10:‘17. However, Gehenna was / Is a real place in Israel with a rich history dating back to Solomon. It is a physical place where not only normal folk, but also Kings of Israel offered their children to the fires of Molech and Chemosh. These were brutal murders of their innocent children being burned alive. Imagine the screams of an innocent baby being rolled into the belly of a red hot idol with its arms stretched out to receive the child. Imagine the screams of a mother watching their child be burned alive.

Now, Imagine what type of person would willingly place a child in the red hot arms of an idol to be burned alive. A person who’s ears were deaf to the screams of that child and blind to the pain it was causing on that child.

Now, imagine a mother doing the same. One that not only willingly, but joyfully offering up her own child.

This is what hell looks like on earth. This is exile. Exile is when God removes one from his presence and from the land. It is not only a physical state, but it is also a spiritual state. When we die, we either remain United with Christ, or exiled.

Because of this, I have a very difficult time grasping Gehenna as a metaphor. I see it more as not only a current state, but also a future state. We either remain in our sin (lives of hell) or we turn from our evil ways and follow the ways of God.

 

[T. E. Smith]

I agree on John 10:‘17. However, Gehenna was / Is a real place in Israel with a rich history dating back to Solomon. It is a physical place where not only normal folk, but also Kings of Israel offered their children to the fires of Molech and Chemosh. These were brutal murders of their innocent children being burned alive. Imagine the screams of an innocent baby being rolled into the belly of a red hot idol with its arms stretched out to receive the child. Imagine the screams of a mother watching their child be burned alive.

Now, Imagine what type of person would willingly place a child in the red hot arms of an idol to be burned alive. A person who’s ears were deaf to the screams of that child and blind to the pain it was causing on that child.

Now, imagine a mother doing the same. One that not only willingly, but joyfully offering up her own child.

This is what hell looks like on earth. This is exile. Exile is when God removes one from his presence and from the land. It is not only a physical state, but it is also a spiritual state. When we die, we either remain United with Christ, or exiled.

Because of this, I have a very difficult time grasping Gehenna as a metaphor. I see it more as not only a current state, but also a future state. We either remain in our sin (lives of hell) or we turn from our evil ways and follow the ways of God.

This is why I recoil at the idea of Hell. That powerful comparison.

 

[stovebolts]

This is why I recoil at the idea of Hell. That powerful comparison.

When you say recoil, what exactly do you mean?

 

[WIP]

If it never happened and therefore never will, what does it teach? Because what you tell me it teaches, I can tell you that the never happened to either of those men and so will never happen to any man.

Am I understanding you correctly that you believe the story never happened so you believe it is a parable and if a parable, there is nothing to be learned from it? If so, then you are also saying that everything Jesus taught using parables have no meaning or teaching to be gained from them.