Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[T. E. Smith]

I also weave it into my writings without blinking lights.

I've definitely noticed this about you, unlike most other Christians on this forum. I can see the biblical references in your posts even though you don't necessarily put them in quote marks, separate lines, or include the reference in parenthesis.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Who is "we" as I only see you having this problem and always feel I am attacking your character, which I have never done, but do disagree with the doctrines you present, but you will not discuss them with me.

Count me in with "we". I have a problem with your habit of "verse-dropping" with no explanation. Like I said, it implies 1) that Dorothy Mae is ignorant of the verses (which she is not), and 2) that the verses support your view so obviously that they require no further explanation.

using scripture and discussing them

You are not just using Scripture and discussing them. You weren't discussing them, you just quoted them.

 

[Edward]

Count me in with "we". I have a problem with your habit of "verse-dropping" with no explanation. Like I said, it implies 1) that Dorothy Mae is ignorant of the verses (which she is not), and 2) that the verses support your view so obviously that they require no further explanation.

You are not just using Scripture and discussing them. You weren't discussing them, you just quoted them.

Please don't act girly. Didn't your mama teach you not to try to break up a cat fight? Geez you sound like one of the cat's, rowr. lol.

 

[Butch5]

I’m always suspicious of claims that all of Christianity has been in error for 2000 years but now, the author alone, has found the truth and about to teach/publish it.

Wishing you all the best,
D

Ignoring the evidence doesn't make it go away. I gave you a quote from the apostle Peter. He said Christ must remain in Heaven until the restoration of all things which was spoken by all of the prophets. Those aren't my words, they're Peter's. Do you think maybe he understood Christianity? If it was spoken by all of the prophets then it's a central theme of Christianity. That you know nothing about it should be alarming to you. That you're a Christian and have no knowledge of a central theme in the Bible should make you ask, why haven't I been taught this?

Paul also talks of this.

Romans 8:18–21 (NKJV): For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Here Paul says that the creation will be delivered from bondage, the curse, and will be delivered to the sons of God.

Isaiah also talks about the restoration. He goes into great detail about the restoration of Jerusalem.

So, no, it's not one guy who found it and everyone else is wrong. As Peter said it's all through the prophets. The apostles speak of it. And a lot of Christians have seen it.

The problem, like I said, is that a lot of error has been brought into the faith and many have been mislead. You have an opportunity to learn some great things here if you don't dismiss them out of hand.

Consider what Jesus said in the Beatitudes. "The meek shall inherit the earth". Did Jesus understand Christianity?

 

[Butch5]

Dorothy Mae

Consider this.

Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth. He was quoting David from Psalm 37. Psalm 37 is all about how the righteous will inherit the land and the wicked will be destroyed. Here are few passages from Psalm 37.

Psalm 37:9 (NKJV): For evildoers shall be cut off;

But those who wait on the Lord,

They shall inherit the earth

This is the passage Jesus quoted.

Verse 10 carries on this thought.

Psalm 37:10–11 (NKJV): For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;

Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,

But it shall be no more.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,

And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Again, the meek inherit the earth and the wicked are destroyed. One more passage should suffice.

Psalm 37:18–20 (NKJV): The Lord knows the days of the upright,

And their inheritance shall be forever.

19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,

And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

20 But the wicked shall perish;

And the enemies of the Lord,

Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.

Into smoke they shall vanish away.

Again, the righteous inherit the land and the wicked perish. A key word here is "inherit". This word carries all thought the Bible. As we'll see it is God's plan through the Bible

What was man's original destiny?

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (Gen. 1:27-30 KJV)

What we see here is God giving man dominion or rule over His creation. Man was to rule and subdue it.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen. 2:7-9 KJV)

Here we see that Adam was to tend the garden. We also see that Adam had eternal life. He had access to the tree of Life.

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:19-20 KJV)

Here we see Adam naming the animals, showing that he did indeed have rule over them.

We know that Adam ate from the tree of knowledge and lost all of that. God placed an angel to guard the way to the tree of life lest Adam should eat of it and live forever. This is what we find in the very beginning of the Bible.

Let's jump to Revelation.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

Here we see Jesus saying to the one who overcomes He will give to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the garden of God. That's the garden of Eden. So, at the end of the of the Bible we see what we saw in the beginning. We see man eating from the Tree of Life. Adam had access to the Tree and could live forever. He sinned and lost that. In Revelation we see it restored. Everything in between is God working this all out.

God's original plan was for man to rule over creation. Adam sinned and lost that. However, God's plan wasn't thwarted. It's still the plan. All that we see between the beginning of Genesis and Revelation is the process of God fixing what Adam lost.

 

[Butch5]

Dorothy Mae

That's the birds eye view or the big picture if you will. Let's now get into some of the details and how all of this works. One thing to keep in mind is that through the Bible, believers are referred to as the sons and daughters of God. Why is that? Why aren't we just called a people of God or the friends of God? Why children? Remember that word inherit that Jesus used? Who gets the inheritance? Is it not the children? Keep that in mind as we continue.

We see that Adam was given rule over the creation but lost it. Let's look at the words of David again.

Psalm 8:4–9 (KJV 1900): What is man, that thou art mindful of him?

And the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,

And hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands;

Thou hast put all things under his feet:

7 All sheep and oxen,

Yea, and the beasts of the field;

8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea,

And whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

The apostle Peter tells us that David was a prophet. But in this Psalm David simply marvels at God's creation and the fact that God had given man dominion over all of His creation. He says all things were put under man's dominion. The apostle Paul quotes this passage.

Hebrews 2:5–8 (KJV 1900): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Notice Paul says that God has not put the world to come in subjection to angels. The world to come? He's talking about the restoration of all things which I'll try to develop as a separate line. Then Paul quotes David noting how God made him a little lower than the angels, crowned him with honor and glory, and has put all things in subjection to man. But then at the end there he says we do not yet see all things put under him. So, God's original plan was for man to rule over all of creation but Paul says we don't see that yet. The key word there is "yet". By saying "yet" Paul indicates that he does expect to see it. So, we dont see it yet. Then Paul says,

Hebrews 2:9 (KJV 1900): 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

"But we see Jesus". There's the answer to the problem. He was made a little lower than the angels, crowned with honor and glory. In other words, He was made man. Adam sinned and lost the dominion that God had given him. "But we see Jesus", He is the solution. How will man regain dominion over the creation? Jesus, He was made man so that man could once again have dominion over the creation.

So, Jesus is the answer, but, how did God carry this out? Remember that word inherit. Let's go back to David again. In Psalm two David prophesied the words of Christ before His incarnation.

Psalm 2:1–12 (KJV 1900): Why do the heathen rage,

And the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves,

And the rulers take counsel together,

Against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder,

And cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:

The Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath,

And vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king

Upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree:

The Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son;

This day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me,

And I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,

And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;

Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings:

Be instructed, ye judges of the
earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear,

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry,

And ye perish from the way,

When his wrath is kindled but a little.

Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

In this Psalm David speaks of the Lord and His Annointed. The word Annointed in the Greek Old Testament is Christos, Christ in English. He says the Lord has said to me, 'thou art my son, this day have I begotten you'. Then He says, 'ask of me and I will give you the heathen for your inheritance and the ends of the land for your possession. Here we see that Christ's inheritance is the heathen or the nations and the land. Notice too that He will rule them. Man ruling over creation.

Paul says all things were made through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV 1900): God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Notice Paul says that God has appointed His Son heir of all things. Christ is heir of the creation. So let's see how this all works. Back in Genesis God made a promise to a man named Abraham. After Abraham separated from Lot the Lord appeard to him.

Genesis 13:14–17 (KJV 1900): 14 And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

Here God told Abraham that He was going to give Him all the land that he could see. That He would give it to him and his seed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I've definitely noticed this about you, unlike most other Christians on this forum. I can see the biblical references in your posts even though you don't necessarily put them in quote marks, separate lines, or include the reference in parenthesis.

Thank you. It always surprises me when christians say I do not use scripture at all but the truth is, they do not know scripture well and do not recognize it unless it is proceeded by a "heads up, authoritative scripture coming."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy Mae

Consider this.

Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth. He was quoting David from Psalm 37. Psalm 37 is all about how the righteous will inherit the land and the wicked will be destroyed. Here are few passages from Psalm 37.

Psalm 37:9 (NKJV): For evildoers shall be cut off;

But those who wait on the Lord,

They shall inherit the earth

This is the passage Jesus quoted.

Verse 10 carries on this thought.

Psalm 37:10–11 (NKJV): For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;

Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,

But it shall be no more.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,

And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Again, the meek inherit the earth and the wicked are destroyed. One more passage should suffice.

Psalm 37:18–20 (NKJV): The Lord knows the days of the upright,

And their inheritance shall be forever.

19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time,

And in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

20 But the wicked shall perish;

And the enemies of the Lord,

Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.

Into smoke they shall vanish away.

Again, the righteous inherit the land and the wicked perish. A key word here is "inherit". This word carries all thought the Bible. As we'll see it is God's plan through the Bible

What was man's original destiny?

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (Gen. 1:27-30 KJV)

What we see here is God giving man dominion or rule over His creation. Man was to rule and subdue it.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen. 2:7-9 KJV)

Here we see that Adam was to tend the garden. We also see that Adam had eternal life. He had access to the tree of Life.

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. (Gen. 2:19-20 KJV)

Here we see Adam naming the animals, showing that he did indeed have rule over them.

We know that Adam ate from the tree of knowledge and lost all of that. God placed an angel to guard the way to the tree of life lest Adam should eat of it and live forever. This is what we find in the very beginning of the Bible.

Let's jump to Revelation.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

Here we see Jesus saying to the one who overcomes He will give to eat of the Tree of Life which is in the garden of God. That's the garden of Eden. So, at the end of the of the Bible we see what we saw in the beginning. We see man eating from the Tree of Life. Adam had access to the Tree and could live forever. He sinned and lost that. In Revelation we see it restored. Everything in between is God working this all out.

God's original plan was for man to rule over creation. Adam sinned and lost that. However, God's plan wasn't thwarted. It's still the plan. All that we see between the beginning of Genesis and Revelation is the process of God fixing what Adam lost.

Proclaiming that you alone know something that no one in Christianity has known for the last 2000 years is not being meek. It is, the opposite of meek. What I know was known by many who walked with Him and I have to think long and hard if there is anything I know that no one else knew in Christendom over the 2000 years. I am more likely to think that there is whole lot more that others understood than I do and I am only catching up, although it is risky comparing oneself to others. "They do err comparing themselves one to another."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Please don't act girly. Didn't your mama teach you not to try to break up a cat fight? Geez you sound like one of the cat's, rowr. lol.

Please don't continue the dog fight you two are in.

 

[Butch5]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

You're correct. The eternal torment doctrine is not what Scripture teaches. The idea comes from Christians trying to hold on to a Greek concept. That concept is the immortal soul. The Greeks in New Testment times held that the soul was immortal. Christians have adopted this concept. If one holds this concept it follows that everyone will exist somewhere eternally. Modern Christianity holds that there are two destinies, Heaven or Hell. If one has an immortal soul then one would have to live eternally in one of these places. The problem with this position is that the premise is false. Man does not have an immortal soul.

 

[Butch5]

Proclaiming that you alone know something that no one in Christianity has known for the last 2000 years is not being meek. It is, the opposite of meek. What I know was known by many who walked with Him and I have to think long and hard if there is anything I know that no one else knew in Christendom over the 2000 years. I am more likely to think that there is whole lot more that others understood than I do and I am only catching up, although it is risky comparing oneself to others. "They do err comparing themselves one to another."

Again, you avoid the evidence. There are many who know of the restoration of all things. You claiming I'm the only one is fallacious. I can post passage after passage of the early Christians writing of it. As I said, Peter states it plainly. Paul states it plainly. The prophets state it. Plenty of Chridtians today teach it. It's seems to me that you're not interested in what the Bible says.

 

[Hopeful]

You're correct. The eternal torment doctrine is not what Scripture teaches. The idea comes from Christians trying to hold on to a Greek concept. That concept is the immortal soul. The Greeks in New Testment times held that the soul was immortal. Christians have adopted this concept. If one holds this concept it follows that everyone will exist somewhere eternally. Modern Christianity holds that there are two destinies, Heaven or Hell. If one has an immortal soul then one would have to live eternally in one of these places. The problem with this position is that the premise is false. Man does not have an immortal soul.

Do you have one (or two) scriptures stating that?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Again, you avoid the evidence. There are many who know of the restoration of all things. You claiming I'm the only one is fallacious. I can post passage after passage of the early Christians writing of it. As I said, Peter states it plainly. Paul states it plainly. The prophets state it. Plenty of Chridtians today teach it. It's seems to me that you're not interested in what the Bible says.

When they write the "restoration of all things," they do not mean a return to the Garden of Eden. They mean a return of the kind of world God intended. No one writes that Eden is coming back or even that Paradise is coming back. That is what insert into the meaning, something the authors never thought of.

You evidence that more commonly than I realized attitude that anyone who does not agree with you, does not believe the Bible as though they are one and the same. There also seems to be a great reverence for the words when put in quotes with the reference ("heads up, scripture coming so do not think, just accept") but not when these exact words are not put in quotes. I once word for word quoted a Scripture and the person I was talking to said they did not agree with that statement. What did that tell me? They worship the book but do not live it. If I give them the exact scripture sans reference, they do not recognize that meaning as biblical. They do not know the Bible, just the scriptures they learned to support their chosen position with their chosen definition. Anyone who does not agree with them, does not agree with the Bible. Scary!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy Mae

That's the birds eye view or the big picture if you will. Let's now get into some of the details and how all of this works. One thing to keep in mind is that through the Bible, believers are referred to as the sons and daughters of God. Why is that? Why aren't we just called a people of God or the friends of God? Why children? Remember that word inherit that Jesus used? Who gets the inheritance? Is it not the children? Keep that in mind as we continue.

We see that Adam was given rule over the creation but lost it. Let's look at the words of David again.

Psalm 8:4–9 (KJV 1900): What is man, that thou art mindful of him?

And the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,

And hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands;

Thou hast put all things under his feet:

7 All sheep and oxen,

Yea, and the beasts of the field;

8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea,

And whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

The apostle Peter tells us that David was a prophet. But in this Psalm David simply marvels at God's creation and the fact that God had given man dominion over all of His creation. He says all things were put under man's dominion. The apostle Paul quotes this passage.

Hebrews 2:5–8 (KJV 1900): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Notice Paul says that God has not put the world to come in subjection to angels. The world to come? He's talking about the restoration of all things which I'll try to develop as a separate line. Then Paul quotes David noting how God made him a little lower than the angels, crowned him with honor and glory, and has put all things in subjection to man. But then at the end there he says we do not yet see all things put under him. So, God's original plan was for man to rule over all of creation but Paul says we don't see that yet. The key word there is "yet". By saying "yet" Paul indicates that he does expect to see it. So, we dont see it yet. Then Paul says,

Hebrews 2:9 (KJV 1900): 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

"But we see Jesus". There's the answer to the problem. He was made a little lower than the angels, crowned with honor and glory. In other words, He was made man. Adam sinned and lost the dominion that God had given him. "But we see Jesus", He is the solution. How will man regain dominion over the creation? Jesus, He was made man so that man could once again have dominion over the creation.

So, Jesus is the answer, but, how did God carry this out? Remember that word inherit. Let's go back to David again. In Psalm two David prophesied the words of Christ before His incarnation.

Psalm 2:1–12 (KJV 1900): Why do the heathen rage,

And the people imagine a vain thing?

2 The kings of the earth set themselves,

And the rulers take counsel together,

Against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder,

And cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:

The Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath,

And vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king

Upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree:

The Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son;

This day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me,

And I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,

And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;

Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings:

Be instructed, ye judges of the
earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear,

And rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry,

And ye perish from the way,

When his wrath is kindled but a little.

Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

In this Psalm David speaks of the Lord and His Annointed. The word Annointed in the Greek Old Testament is Christos, Christ in English. He says the Lord has said to me, 'thou art my son, this day have I begotten you'. Then He says, 'ask of me and I will give you the heathen for your inheritance and the ends of the land for your possession. Here we see that Christ's inheritance is the heathen or the nations and the land. Notice too that He will rule them. Man ruling over creation.

Paul says all things were made through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV 1900): God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Notice Paul says that God has appointed His Son heir of all things. Christ is heir of the creation. So let's see how this all works. Back in Genesis God made a promise to a man named Abraham. After Abraham separated from Lot the Lord appeard to him.

Genesis 13:14–17 (KJV 1900): 14 And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.

Here God told Abraham that He was going to give Him all the land that he could see. That He would give it to him and his seed.

Very nice post. Is this what you meant? I agree with all
if it except the ruling the heathen nations. One by one he is changing them into friends. That’s his enemies becoming “a footstool for his feet.”

Why do you think this understanding has been lost for 2000 years and only you have discovered it and are about to teach it? This is very old and fairly common.

 

[Butch5]

Do you have one (or two) scriptures stating that?

Sure. Look at John 3:16. Jesus came so that those who believe should not perish but have eternal life. He didn't say so they would not burn in hell forever, He said so they would not perish.

Look at Paul's word. The wages if sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sure. Look at John 3:16. Jesus came so that those who believe should not perish but have eternal life. He didn't say so they would not burn in hell forever, He said so they would not perish.

Look at Paul's word. The wages if sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

The lack of Jesus not mentioning hell in one verse you quote doesn’t mean it’s not there or that he never taught it. Jesus warned about hell more than all the others put together. Do you need scriptures where he discusses hell where the “worm dies not and the fire is never quenched?”

 

[Butch5]

When they write the "restoration of all things," they do not mean a return to the Garden of Eden. They mean a return of the kind of world God intended. No one writes that Eden is coming back or even that Paradise is coming back. That is what insert into the meaning, something the authors never thought of.

Really? Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise. The Greek word translated Paradise means garden. So Jesus told the thief he would with Him in the Garden. Jesus also gave the right to those who overcome to eat of the tree of life which He said was in the Paradise (Garden) of God. When we read Genesis where is the tree of life? It's in the Garden (Paradise) of Eden. We also find in Genesis that God planted a garden (paradise) in Eden. So, God's garden (paradise) is in Eden.

Jesus' inheritance is more than just Eden. It's as Paul says, all things.

You evidence that more commonly than I realized attitude that anyone who does not agree with you, does not believe the Bible as though they are one and the same. There also seems to be a great reverence for the words when put in quotes with the reference ("heads up, scripture coming so do not think, just accept") but not when these exact words are not put in quotes. I once word for word quoted a Scripture and the person I was talking to said they did not agree with that statement. What did that tell me? They worship the book but do not live it. If I give them the exact scripture sans reference, they do not recognize that meaning as biblical. They do not know the Bible, just the scriptures they learned to support their chosen position with their chosen definition. Anyone who does not agree with them, does not agree with the Bible. Scary!

Can we stop with this nonsense? I gave you a quote straight from Scripture of the apostle Peter. You disagreed. That means you're disagreeing with Scripture, not me.

 

[Butch5]

Very nice post. Is this what you meant? I agree with all
if it except the ruling the heathen nations. One by one he is changing them into friends. That’s his enemies becoming “a footstool for his feet.”

Why do you think this understanding has been lost for 2000 years and only you have discovered it and are about to teach it? This is very old and fairly common.

I never said only I discovered it. Lots a people know it. I said it was lost because the majority belief in Christianity is that believers will spend eternity in Heaven. The Bible says no such thing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Really? Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise.

So Paradise is a place that now exists and is not a future plan, right? I mean that thief has been there for over 2000 years along with others, we can assume.

The Greek word translated Paradise means garden. So Jesus told the thief he would with Him in the Garden. Jesus also gave the right to those who overcome to eat of the tree of life which He said was in the Paradise (Garden) of God. When we read Genesis where is the tree of life? It's in the Garden (Paradise) of Eden. We also find in Genesis that God planted a garden (paradise) in Eden. So, God's garden (paradise) is in Eden.

And they’re already there! So much for a future state. (You’d best avoid that scripture next time as it soundly defeats your position, Paradise being already finished and inhabitable.

Jesus' inheritance is more than just Eden. It's as Paul says, all things.

He doesn’t inherit Eden.

Can we stop with this nonsense? I gave you a quote straight from Scripture of the apostle Peter. You disagreed. That means you're disagreeing with Scripture, not me.

There it is again. In your mind, what you think IS scripture, no difference. Anyone who sees the matter differently disagrees with Scripture/God. Not a very open and teachable attitude.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I never said only I discovered it. Lots a people know it. I said it was lost because the majority belief in Christianity is that believers will spend eternity in Heaven. The Bible says no such thing.

It’s very common and was not lost. The fact is we all die and the burning question is where are we in the meantime and on earth is NOT the answer.

Butch, this is not at all new. It’s very old and very commonly thought. Could hardly be more common. There’s a new heaven and new earth coming but since it’s not here, other questions are more pressing.