Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[jasonc]

The New Testament writers were referring to a specific entity.

Did I say I did .no I was mentioning the different views on sheol and the midrash on it .

Oral sages teachings dont mention a Satan who rules sheol to torment .

 

[Hidden In Him]

Because He wouldn't go there when it's gonna torment him.

I'm asking for a scriptural basis.

 

[jasonc]

I'm asking for a scriptural basis.

Define hell

 

[jasonc]

In your context that is the final judgement.

As all the lost are there .

The dead aren't as well the dead weren't given to heaven to be judged not has the sea ,and Hades.

This hasn't happened yet

 

[jasonc]

For the record I was raised anti trinitarian and also annilation.

So I know what is the difference of hell,Hades,Sheol and the lake of fire and Gehenna

 

[Hidden In Him]

Define hell

Give me the scriptural basis for your belief Satan cannot enter Hell, and I will give you my definition of Hell.

 

[jasonc]

Give me the scriptural basis for your belief Satan cannot enter Hell, and I will give you my definition of Hell.

He can't enter the lake of fire where all the lost are because that his own death sentence as he is eternally judged

If Satan has the power to escape the lake of fire why then not the abyss?

The idea of the abyss is that he is bound to it .

Same with the lake of fire .he can't escape that .

Post a verse .not a vision of where it says Satan torments in sheol

 

[Hidden In Him]

He can't enter the lake of fire where all the lost are because that his own death sentence as he is eternally judged

If Satan has the power to escape the lake of fire why then not the abyss?

The idea of the abyss is that he is bound to it .

If you know the difference between Hell, Hades, Gehenna, the Abyss, and the Lake of Fire, Jason, then you know I'm not referring to either the Lake of Fire or the Abyss. I am speaking of the realm of the damned that currently exists, and is currently inhabited by the souls of those who died in their wickedness.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Post a verse .not a vision of where it says Satan torments in sheol

Since you are unable to post a verse to the opposite, and since other things mentioned in her vision conform to early church doctrine, there appears to be more in support of her vision than in your theological position, yes?

 

[jasonc]

The lake of fire judgment ,is yet to be .God hasn't ended time to judge man .

If you know the difference between Hell, Hades, Gehenna, the Abyss, and the Lake of Fire, Jason, then you know I'm not referring to either the Lake of Fire or the Abyss. I am speaking of the realm of the damned that currently exists, and is currently inhabited by the souls of those who died in their wickedness.

That's what?

The sea still has the dead in it.death itself has the dead,and the Hades.

You do know that

You simply ignore that part where it says

And the sea gave the dead in it ,and the death gave the dead in him and Hades .then the books of the deeds of man were opened and he wasn't found in the book of life was cast on the lake of fire .

That has happened ?

That's the second death . The millennium occured and or final assualt if Jerusalem?

 

[Hidden In Him]

You simply ignore that part where it says

And the sea gave the dead in it ,and the death gave the dead in him and Hades .then the books of the deeds of man were opened and he wasn't found in the book of life was cast on the lake of fire .

You're making assumptions about what I am ignoring.

No sweat. I need to log off anyway.

God bless,
- H

 

[jasonc]

Since you are unable to post a verse to the opposite, and since other things mentioned in her vision conform to early church doctrine, there appears to be more in support of her vision than in your theological position, yes?

No because you ignore that problem of where it says in the lake of fire where by men die not .

Your visions mentions this smell of burning flesh

Ihm Satan is a spirit .he has no flesh .the resurrection of the unjust includes the idea of a body ressurection.

That has to occur .if that is the vision of the final judgement you imply then no Satan can't as he is tormented


See Daniel 12


See revelation 20.

Satan can't torment as he himself is tormented by the fire

You're making assumptions about what I am ignoring.

No sweat. I need to log off anyway.

God bless,
- H

No,because you assume that it's a final place .Hades isn't .Hades doesn't have all the dead .

It's clearly not going to .

 

[Hidden In Him]

No,because you assume that it's a final place

No, I don't. Yet again you are assuming things, and you shouldn't be putting words in people's mouth when you don't understand what they are saying.

 

[jasonc]

No, I don't. Yet again you are assuming things, and you shouldn't be putting words in people's mouth when you don't understand what they are saying.

So you state that the wicked who die go to Hades .

Satan ca.n and k

No, I don't. Yet again you are assuming things, and you shouldn't be putting words in people's mouth when you don't understand what they are saying.

I didnt

You said that where Satan is doing that that is where the wicked go.

The sea had dead in It
The death ,what ever that is has dead in it .

These are not in Hades as Hades is where also the dead are found and to be judged.

So literally ,in the depth of the sea the dead are tormented ?as the dead I death ?

My church pastor hasn't stated much on this view of death and the sea .I did talk to him about it .grey area on it.

Yet you said

 

[T. E. Smith]

Yes, but Jesus also spoke of it being better to pluck one's eye out than be cast into Hell, where their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched, which is only one of many teachings of His you would likely call "dark and demonic narratives" as well.

So in effect, you are villianizing the Lord Jesus Christ and calling Him demonic, which is why many Christians would say you serve Satan with your words.

Jesus' description is morbid and almost sounds gleeful. But it does not approach the level of the testimony you've been posting, which is like Dante's Inferno (a twisted book). Regardless, my opinion on this matter does not indicate my servility to a Satan. In fact, I serve nobody.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus' description is morbid and almost sounds gleeful. But it does not approach the level of the testimony you've been posting, which is like Dante's Inferno (a twisted book). Regardless, my opinion on this matter does not indicate my servility to a Satan. In fact, I serve nobody.

Don't think I'm saying this resentfully because I am not, but when you say Jesus sounds morbid and almost gleeful when talking about the suffering of others, trust me; you are willfully serving the Devil in doing so - not some philosophical concept, but Satan himself - when you say such things. All through the account I gave you, the Lord is consistently depicted as feeling great sorrow for those who rejected Life in favor of death and Hell:

Jesus appeared to me again and said, "Tonight we are going into the right leg of hell, My child. Don't be frightened, for I love you and I am with you." The face of the Lord was sorrowful, and His eyes were filled with great tenderness and deep love. Though those in Hell were forever lost, I knew that He still loved them and would for all eternity. "My child," He said, "God, our Father, gave each one of us a will so that we could choose whether we would serve Him or Satan. You see, God did not make Hell for His people. Satan deceives many into following him, but Hell was made for Satan and his angels. It is not My desire, nor that of My Father, that anyone should perish." Tears of compassion ran down Jesus' cheeks. (A Divine Revelation of Hell, P. 37-38)

On our way to the tunnel, we walked on past the flaming pits with the cries and moans of the damned ringing in my ears. Many called out to Jesus as we went by. Others tried to climb out of the pits of fire in order to reach Him, but could not. Sorrow was always upon Jesus' face as we walked. (Ibid, P.63)

I heard a woman say, "Lord, I knew you would come someday"... She began to pull at the bars and cry. Softly Jesus said, "Peace, be still." He spoke to her with sadness in His voice... "You knew on earth what your end would be. Moses gave you the law, and you heard it. But instead of obeying My law, you chose to be an instrument in the hands of Satan, a soothsayer and a witch. You even taught the art of witchcraft. You loved darkness rather than light, and your deeds were evil. If you had repented with your heart, My Father would have forgiven you. But now, it is too late." With sorrow and great pity in our hearts, we walked away. (Ibid, P.149)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hey again!

In response to this argument, let me ask you: What do you think would happen to society if there were no jail cells or prisons, and no repercussions hanging over anyone's head for committing crimes?

It just frustrates me when two Christians debate something and one of them just drops verses with no explanation. It implies, "These verses, which you are ignorant of, support my view so obviously that they don't even need further comment."

I dislike it too. I have two thoughts. Either they don’t really think much about their faith but just take words or teaching they hear with the attached verse that supposedly backs it up or they are hiding behind scripture and don’t want to think at all. There are those who assume if you quote a Bible verse, any of them, and that will shut the opposite up out of respect. Sometimes I get the feeling they throw out a bunch of verses and run quick for cover. They don’t stand by them.

 

[Edward]

He can't enter the lake of fire where all the lost are because that his own death sentence as he is eternally judged

If Satan has the power to escape the lake of fire why then not the abyss?

The idea of the abyss is that he is bound to it .

Same with the lake of fire .he can't escape that .

Post a verse .not a vision of where it says Satan torments in sheol

No, Hell is a temporary holding place for the condemned who die in the flesh and are awaitng the great white throne judgement. After the trial, they will be tossed into the lake of fire.

Is how I understand it.

 

[jasonc]

No, Hell is a temporary holding place for the condemned who die in the flesh and are awaitng the great white throne judgement. After the trial, they will be tossed into the lake of fire.

Is how I understand it.

No ,it's not .

Hades ,doesn't hold all the dead

It not said.
The sea gave up it's dead ,death gave dead in him and Hades .these three have the dead .only one is more specific on having torture .the sea and the death don't .


That a question I will ask my pastor in Sheol .he is fluent in Hebrew and would get that term

 

[Randy]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

The resurrection of the unrighteous as to be condemned starts in the OT. (Daniel 12) Was mentioned by Jesus and Revelation gives clear testimony of the lake of fire.
“Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched”
They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Read John 17
Jesus didn't pray for the whole world but for His disciples and for those who would come to believe in Him through their message which still occurs to this day. Part of that prayer is the oneness you state for them not the whole world.

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”


You are currently in violation of the greatest commandment which you know and are aware of.
Jesus replied: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Gods will makes sense to me besides my life is in the Lords hands. Just as yours is whether you believe or not. God punishing sin and disobedience is seen throughout the bible.