Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[for_his_glory]

At that point it was true. Later, after his resurrection it was no long the case. The death of Stephen was later.

Please show proof that anyone went to heaven after the resurrection of Christ when they died. Even Stephen is in his grave waiting until the last day when all will be resurrected from their graves.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[for_his_glory]

While it is true that Jesus spoke many parables, it is not necessarily true, and one that is debated quite often, that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is just a parable.

I'm not going to argue nor debate this as a parable or not, but only to say Jesus said no one has ever been taken up to heaven after they died. I have to stick to what scripture says.

 

[for_his_glory]

Lots and lots!

For example?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Please show proof that anyone went to heaven after the resurrection of Christ when they died.

Revelation 6:9-11: "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been." Here these killed saints are in heaven.

Selections from 2 Corinthians 5: "For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God...that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life...we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord...and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord." Paul clearly thought he would live on after death, with God.

 

[T. E. Smith]

after the resurrection of Christ

Is your biblical belief that the situation changed upon Christ's resurrection? If so where do you get that from?

 

[T. E. Smith]

I'm not going to argue nor debate this as a parable or not

It doesn't matter if it was a parable or not, unless Jesus is now known to give parables of matters that convey bad theology.

 

[for_his_glory]

It is like telling a young girl if she serves her unpleasant siblings one day a prince will come and take her to live in a nice place. Since it never happened (as some believe that telling) it never will so
it teaches us nothing. You need to pick an example of something that never happened to be accurately representing your point. That’s what some believe of Jesus’ words.

Regarding consciousness after death, I only need one example to show there is such. You can site 100s of statements but one positive testimony that is opposite yours destroys them all. Moses appeared talking to Jesus. Samuel appeared to Saul. That’s two.

1Thessalonians 4:
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

No one has ever entered the third Heaven where God sits on His throne. Third Heaven is where God and the holy angels and spirits of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27; Psalms 2:4; John 3:13

Jesus only returns once on the last day, John 5:28, 29; 6:40, and at that time will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire, Rev 19:11-21. Jesus will then send His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather together those who are His own as the door of salvation is then closed forever and final judgment made, Matthew 24:29-31.

Revelation 22:
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[for_his_glory]

Then your point was not addressing the issue. After Jesus’ death and resurrection things changed.

And what are these things you say changed?

 

[for_his_glory]

Did you know that some of the dead heard his voice and were resurrected with Jesus and appeared to many in the city? I’m not disputing you but it is what the scriptures say. Just a thought…

What you are speaking about that happened over 2000 years ago was that many, not all, were raised from the grave when the earth quaked and Jesus yielded up the Ghost. They were brought back to life and entered into the city, not heaven, so others would know Jesus as in "I am Lord" as only Jesus has power to raise anyone from the dead. This is what caused the centurion and many that were with him to believe this was the Son of God that hung on the cross.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And what are these things you say changed?

Jesus has all authority in Heaven and on Earth for one. Do I need to lay out the Gospel? Do you think nothing changed?

 

[T. E. Smith]

Jesus has all authority in Heaven and on Earth for one. Do I need to lay out the Gospel? Do you think nothing changed?

Of course some things changed, but what changed as far as what is really relevant to this discussion?

 

[for_his_glory]

Two things on that verse.

1. The next verse included reads: "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." There is clearly a delay between Christ's death and his second coming (we're in that delay). So, it's logical to see a delay between man's death and his judgment, since the two are placed in parallel.
2. Alternatively, humans are judged as soon as they die. Hence they are in Hell, conscious, at this present moment. That is what explains "not to deal with sin" - humans are judged when they die, not at Christ's second coming.

I agree with your point #1 as there is a time span from the time we are laid in the grave unto the coming of the Lord, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Point #2 in part I agree as when one physically dies they have either died being Christ own who walked in obedience to His commands or they died rejecting Christ and have damned them own selves, John 5:28-29; Rev 20:11-15. After death and when Christ returns all will come before the throne of God for final judgement.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice verse 14 as death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire so hell is not the lake of fire, but the grave where the dead are buried. The second death is literally those who die that are not Christ own and at that time there will be no more physical death or the need for any graves after final judgement comes.

 

[for_his_glory]

Is your biblical belief that the situation changed upon Christ's resurrection? If so where do you get that from?

What situation are you talking about?

 

[for_his_glory]

It doesn't matter if it was a parable or not, unless Jesus is now known to give parables of matters that convey bad theology.

It's only people that give bad theology as there are 39 parables that Jesus gave as each one has a lesson for us to learn from.

 

[WIP]

Then it is useless. I mean, it teaches nothing at all as there is no suffering rich man in hell and no Lazarus in peace and comfort. It’s nothing at all as it never happened and never will. Useless.

I don't think you quite understood my post. I didn't say the story of the rich man and Lazarus was not true. For_his_glory said that the story was a parable and I was saying that whether it is a parable or an actual event is debatable and has been debated for a long time. Whether it is or is not, the teaching is the same nonetheless.

 

[Free]

Just showing that Gehenna is an actual place as you brought it up in the first place.

Of course it’s an actual place, but Jesus was using it as a metaphor for the final destination of unbelievers.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 6:9-11: "When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, 'O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been." Here these killed saints are in heaven.

Selections from 2 Corinthians 5: "For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God...that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life...we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord...and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord." Paul clearly thought he would live on after death, with God.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecc 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/spirit returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment when Christ returns.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body/flesh at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state. Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

vs. 1 is speaking about the tabernacle of God that is within us as we are the Temple of God, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17, and when we physically die we will have eternal life with Him in the New Jerusalem
vs. 2 we desire to be in our new home, the New Jerusalem, that will be ushered down from heaven at the end of days, Rev 21
vs. 3 we are clothed in Gods righteousness as we will not be found naked, Isaiah 61:10
vs. 4 We are the Temple of God, but yet we do have burdens as we still live in this fleshly body waiting for immortality when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
vs. 5 basic as we have Gods Spirit dwelling in us as we need to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, Galatians 5:16, 17
vs. 6 we are confident knowing that if we are walking in the flesh we are absent from God because flesh and Spirit can not mix, Galatians 5:17
vs. 7 we walk by faith, which is Christ Jesus as we seek those things from above and not the things of this world, Colossians 3:1-4
vs. 8 we are confident if we are walking in the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) we are no longer following the lust of the flesh, 1 John 2:16

Absent from the body and present with the Lord means that we are no longer in the flesh, but now walking in the Spirit having fellowship with God while still being here on earth.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus has all authority in Heaven and on Earth for one. Do I need to lay out the Gospel? Do you think nothing changed?

I would say that is the only thing that has changed. Maybe you do need to lay out the Gospel to show me what has changed in order to understand what you are talking about. I am being serious.

 

[for_his_glory]

Of course it’s an actual place, but Jesus was using it as a metaphor for the final destination of unbelievers.

I can agree with this as many things are likened unto other things in scripture like using the literal like Gehenna to make a point.

 

[stovebolts]

Of course it’s an actual place, but Jesus was using it as a metaphor for the final destination of unbelievers.

Gehenna has its roots going all the way back to Solomon who offered his children as sacrifice resulting in the kingdom becoming divided.

Since this physical place also represents a spiritual aspect why do you think Jesus would minimize either on a mere metaphor?

And if Jesus only uses this as a metaphor for a future destination, what then becomes of the physical reminder just outside of Jerusalem? What purpose does that hold?

I learned a long time ago that the physical and spiritual are always connected and when we try and uncouple them, we risk missing the whole picture.