Eternal hell with new creation?

[T. E. Smith]

The new creation theme in the Bible does not seem to go with the notion of an eternal hell. Isaiah 55 and Romans 8 teach God's renewal of the world into perfection. It is said that in the future, Christ will be "all in all." It does not seem to make sense for God's new creation, then, to have an eternal torture chamber in it. In the new creation, God returns the world to its state before sin. How can Hell be part of that intent? How can Christ be all in all, with unbelievers tortured forever?

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you saying you don’t believe the death and resurrection of Christ changes matters in earth and in Heaven? You need a scripture that? Jesus said all authority has been given to him on earth and in Heaven. One gets the impression that this wasn’t always so but is, in fact, a change.

What does any of this have to do with what I said in post #92?

You are reading into something that is not there as I was speaking about God's word that never changes.

 

[for_his_glory]

So when Stephen was dying and saw Jesus standing at the throne, Jesus was just waving and indicating “see ja in a couple of millennia….sleep well.”

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Was Jesus lying when He said this?

 

[for_his_glory]

And the lesson is based on reality. But I don't know if it ought to be another thread; I think that parable is very relevant to our understanding of the afterlife

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The above does not take place until until Christ returns on the last day.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[T. E. Smith]

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The above does not take place until until Christ returns on the last day.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We're not denying a resurrection on the last day. The question is if anything comes in between.

 

[Free]

I have to respectfully disagree as Gehenna, also known as the Valley of Hinnom is an actual place here on earth. The valley is also known by the name Gehinnom, an alternative Biblical Hebrew form which survived in Aramaic and in the Greek and Syriac known as Gehenna. Jesus spoke in the Aramaic language not in the Greek.

None of that matters to the point of my argument.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Was Jesus lying when He said this?

At that point it was true. Later, after his resurrection it was no long the case. The death of Stephen was later.

 

[WIP]

It's a parable, not an actual event. Parables like Jesus told were stories used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. But this needs to be another thread.

While it is true that Jesus spoke many parables, it is not necessarily true, and one that is debated quite often, that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is just a parable.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We're not denying a resurrection on the last day. The question is if anything comes in between.

Lots and lots!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's a parable, not an actual event. Parables like Jesus told were stories used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. But this needs to be another thread.

It’s not a parable as Jesus never mentioned names in parables. But it is perhaps, a different thread material.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

While it is true that Jesus spoke many parables, it is not necessarily true, and one that is debated quite often, that the story of Lazarus and the rich man is just a parable.

Then it is useless. I mean, it teaches nothing at all as there is no suffering rich man in hell and no Lazarus in peace and comfort. It’s nothing at all as it never happened and never will. Useless.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Are the characters just representative of real events or is it a very specific circumstance? For example, I might tell a story about Bob, a Christian persecuted for his faith in China. "Bob" is not real (I made him up), but his story is real for many people.

OK Goldwing for_his_glory Dorothy Mae We are trying to find the "biblical perspective" on eternal hell and the immortality of the soul past death. Perhaps the issue is that there is no one biblical perspective.

1. Matthew 10:28 says not to worry about those who "kill the body but cannot kill the soul." Rather, we're to fear God who can do both.
2. Matthew 26:41 talks about a conflict between the disciples' "spirit" and "flesh."
3. 1 Corinthians 7:34 says that the unmarried Christian can remain "holy in body and spirit."
4. James 2:26 says that "the body without the spirit is dead."
5. 3 John 2 hopes that the believers will "be in good health [i.e., body], just as it is well with their soul."

These passages are important, but none are conclusive in suggesting a soul independent of the body, a soul surviving after death. Here is indication that the soul does survive after death:

1. Phil. 1:23-24: "My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account."
2. In Revelation 6:9, "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne."
3. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 says, "For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling, if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
   1. Even if we are "away from the body", our "earthly home [lit. tent] destroyed", we will still be "at home with the Lord." The implications of a soul surviving after death are crucial.
4. Luke 16:22-23: "The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades [this is the ESV translation], being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side."
   1. It appears that right after death, the righteous man goes to heaven.

So where does the monistic view (body and soul one, soul does not survive bodily death) find support? Several powerful Torah passages indicate it.

1. Ecc. 9:5, 10: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten... Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."
2. Psa. 49:12, 14-15: "Man in his pomp will not remain; he is like the beasts that perish... Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell. But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me." Here we see annihilation of nonbelievers.
3. Job 14:1-2, 10-12, 14: "Man who is born of a woman is few of days and full of trouble. He comes out like a flower and withers; he flees like a shadow and continues not... But a man dies and is laid low; man breathes his last, and where is he? As waters fail from a lake and a river wastes away and dries up, so a man lies down and rises not again; till the heavens are no more he will not awake or be roused out of his sleep... If a man dies, shall he live again?"
   1. This is the teaching of monism: the soul does not continue after death, not until the resurrection ("till the heavens are no more").
4. Many verses speak of no consciousness in Sheol:
   1. Ps. 30:9; 88:10-12; 115:17; Isa. 38:18
   2. "For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?" (Ps. 6:5)
   3. "What profit is there in my death, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it tell of your faithfulness?" (Ps. 30:9)
   4. "Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon? Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?" (Ps. 88:10-12)
   5. "The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any who go down into silence." (Ps. 115:17)
   6. "For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness." (Isa. 38:18)

Here we see that in general, the Torah position is of monism and the NT is of dualism. Authors may also be conflicted upon these topics, or change their minds over a period of time, or even things could be added by editors. All of that can happen with non-biblical books. Why not with the Bible?

It is my contention that there is no one "biblical" position. Even if you don't agree with me (you certainly needn't agree), hopefully these passages I've cited are of help.

It is like telling a young girl if she serves her unpleasant siblings one day a prince will come and take her to live in a nice place. Since it never happened (as some believe that telling) it never will so
it teaches us nothing. You need to pick an example of something that never happened to be accurately representing your point. That’s what some believe of Jesus’ words.

Regarding consciousness after death, I only need one example to show there is such. You can site 100s of statements but one positive testimony that is opposite yours destroys them all. Moses appeared talking to Jesus. Samuel appeared to Saul. That’s two.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What does any of this have to do with what I said in post #92?

You are reading into something that is not there as I was speaking about God's word that never changes.

Then your point was not addressing the issue. After Jesus’ death and resurrection things changed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The above does not take place until until Christ returns on the last day.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Did you know that some of the dead heard his voice and were resurrected with Jesus and appeared to many in the city? I’m not disputing you but it is what the scriptures say. Just a thought…

 

[Free]

Then it is useless. I mean, it teaches nothing at all as there is no suffering rich man in hell and no Lazarus in peace and comfort. It’s nothing at all as it never happened and never will. Useless.

Then it follows that you must believe that all of Jesus' parables are useless and teach us nothing. According to what you have stated, the Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son, for example, teach us nothing.

What is the teaching of the story/parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man? Hint: it's in Luke 16:31.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Moses appeared talking to Jesus. Samuel appeared to Saul.

The first in the NT, and so irrelevant. For the second, yes that is an excellent point. All that shows though is that different biblical authors had different opinions. Furthermore we don't know exactly what the Hebrew author envisioned by Samuel appearing from the grave.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We're not denying a resurrection on the last day. The question is if anything comes in between.

Matthew 27:52

Seems like it.

 

[for_his_glory]

None of that matters to the point of my argument.

Just showing that Gehenna is an actual place as you brought it up in the first place.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Matthew 27:52

Seems like it.

Yes I think the NT teaches that.

 

[for_his_glory]

We're not denying a resurrection on the last day. The question is if anything comes in between.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

There is nothing that comes between death and final judgement as I have shown in the scriptures I gave. There are many man made doctrines that say otherwise that do not line up with scripture, but that scripture pretty much says it all in my opinion.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

There is nothing that comes between death and final judgement as I have shown in the scriptures I gave. There are many man made doctrines that say otherwise that do not line up with scripture, but that scripture pretty much says it all in my opinion.

Two things on that verse.

1. The next verse included reads: "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." There is clearly a delay between Christ's death and his second coming (we're in that delay). So, it's logical to see a delay between man's death and his judgment, since the two are placed in parallel.
2. Alternatively, humans are judged as soon as they die. Hence they are in Hell, conscious, at this present moment. That is what explains "not to deal with sin" - humans are judged when they die, not at Christ's second coming.