Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[dadof10]

We should move on, yes. I do not accept your take since at the time in the chronology of the vision that the birds were called, The False Prophet and The Beast were on the earth just like all the others. Only later are they treated differently than the rest. I'd considered your point before.

I think it's much clearer, in fact required, just to see them as demons. That's why they get different treatment and are captured, versus all other "kings/men" who were slain by the sword.

How do you get rid of a demon? With a sword and birds eating its flesh, or let God (Jesus) "capture" it and send it to the Lake of Fire forever?

Note, one of my other Scriptures points out that here in the "chronology" as you point out The Beast and The False Prophet are not around for the feast of the birds. Guess what else they are not around for. The Resurrection of the dead and Final Judgment!

But i do see how you've come about your position on this text so we can move on, sure.

I already posted my other arguments for why they are not meant to be understood as humans.

I would love for you to describe any errors in them to me. I do appreciate your time. If, for example, you had pointed out some error in my logical argument or out right misunderstanding of Rev 19:17-21, I'd want to know it.

Let me back-up, i guess you did point out an slight error in my logic. I should have made it crystal clear that "all men" are all those alive and on Earth at the time the birds are commissioned by God for a task. Not dead men long buried.

Again, i do see what you are saying about Rev 19.

OK, close enough. I'm on my way to Mass, but I'll try to get to it in between games today. I don't know whether I'll be able to touch on your "Resurrection of the dead and Final Judgment" opinion. It might be too close to ET.

 

[Chopper]

You realize that Allenwynne's point was Biblically inaccurate? The Beast and The False Prophet were thrown into the Lake of Fire in Chapter 19, not 20. All the while Satan roamed the Earth, they were already in the Lake of Fire. They were there already, never to be released, as it says "forever and forever" at the time they were sent there in chapter 19.

Now, if that's true (and I'm open to being proven wrong but assuming it is true) do you think it's significant that The Beast and The False Prophet are in The Lake of Fire, prepared for Satan and his demons, at the time all the unsaved dead humans are raised, judged before Christ, then ordered to depart to the Lake of Fire?

Do you think this means The Beast and The False Prophet are demons or human?

I have read some of the early posts on whether or not there is a hell. That's what this thread should be about. Your post to me is off topic and I'm not going to get involved.

 

[TimothyW]

I think we all agree there is a hell, specifically Sheol, hades, Gehenna, and the lake of fire. I think the issue is what happens there. I believe that both body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna just as Jesus said. And the lake of fire is the second death just as the bible says.

Technically the topic is What is the wages of sin, death or eternal torture? But I think everyone knows why I started the topic. Is the traditional view of hell correct or is Annihilationism a more biblical doctrine?

 

[TimothyW]

OK, I know there are other interpretations of who the beast is. If you don't accept it's a human, OK.



Are we made not human if we have a "close association" with the devil? The false prophet is either human or not. How close he is to the devil is irrelevant.



Right, but who and what people are isn't changed by the symbolism. As far as I can tell by the websites I've read, there is a variety of interpretations of who or what the beast is. There is no such variety with the false prophet. It is universally thought he is a human being. If you have evidence to the contrary, I will surely listen, but, as it stands now, he is certainly a human that points to the beast.



The point is, in scripture, the word "death" can mean something other than annihilation. Our bodies die, but our souls go on. You interpretation of "The wages of sin is death..." doesn't allow for this.



I never accused you of saying that. I said "If it means "the wages of sin is annihilation", then we ALL get annihilated because we all sin."



When a person's body dies, don't you think that person's soul, if he's damned, goes to hell and is then annihilated? So, there is life after death even for a damned person, right? Where you and I disagree is the length of time the soul lasts. "Death" then, doesn't mean annihilation. Do you agree?

What shall I call the kind of death where the person is not alive? That's what I think happens to the lost.

 

[Chopper]

I think we all agree there is a hell, specifically Sheol, hades, Gehenna, and the lake of fire. I think the issue is what happens there. I believe that both body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna just as Jesus said. And the lake of fire is the second death just as the bible says.

Technically the topic is What is the wages of sin, death or eternal torture? But I think everyone knows why I started the topic. Is the traditional view of hell correct or is Annihilationism a more biblical doctrine?

Death is the opposite of life. It is the absence of life in this earthly realm, and has approached the next phase. I feel that you have read most of the Scriptures dealing with this subject. A basic Scripture for this subject is Revelation 20:10-15. Your first statement is Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death. Now, if death (the absence of life) is payment for sin, someone has to die As you probably know Jesus paid that debt for Christians. Jesus is the example of death and what comes next. He showed us that death is a separation from this realm and entrance into the next. For Jesus, it was eternal life in the good, new, realm. The person who does not receive Christ's payment, dies like the Christian but his eternal life is found in Revelation 20:10 and 20:15 They are cast into the lake of fire where the devil, beast, and false prophet are. Their payment for sin and refusing Jesus' payment will suffer being separated from God forever and ever. There are some theologians who emphasize the rewards for Saints, and believe that those in the lake of fire will have differing degrees of discomfort. I guess, that they look at Hitler and feel that someone who is a drunk should not suffer the same judgment. The lake of fire does not consume the individual (as some believe, annihilationism) but the heat is unbearable like the rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:23 "in Hades being in torment ........ send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue".

You use the word torture for those in the lake of fire, and that may be true for some of the people there, but theologians feel that being absent from God's presence, alone, in the dark is equel to the failure to trust Jesus Christ. A lot of theories about the condition of the lake of Fire comes from a misunderstanding of what goes on there because there is so little said about it.

I hope this helps.

 

[chessman]

The lake of fire does not consume the individual (as some believe, annihilationism) but the heat is unbearable like the rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:23 "in Hades being in torment ........ send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue".

You use the word torture for those in the lake of fire, and that may be true for some of the people there, ...

A lot of theories about the condition of the lake of Fire comes from a misunderstanding of what goes on there because there is so little said about it.

I hope this helps.

You realize that within the story of the rich man and Lazarus (whether parable or real), the rich man is said to have living brothers running around on Earth right?

The rich man is in torment in Hades, not the Lake of Fire. It's talking about pre-resurrection events. Called the intermediate state. There's been no resurrection, much less judgment or final punishment yet in that story. Yet because it is so often brought up, when the topic of this thread is post resurrection treatment of the lost, it does confuse people indeed.

 

[JLB]

Abrahams Bosom clearly shows that a human soul can remain in the fire of hell without being annililated.

This principle is carried over to the lake of fire.

 

[TimothyW]

Death is the opposite of life. It is the absence of life in this earthly realm, and has approached the next phase. I feel that you have read most of the Scriptures dealing with this subject. A basic Scripture for this subject is Revelation 20:10-15. Your first statement is Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death. Now, if death (the absence of life) is payment for sin, someone has to die As you probably know Jesus paid that debt for Christians. Jesus is the example of death and what comes next. He showed us that death is a separation from this realm and entrance into the next. For Jesus, it was eternal life in the good, new, realm. The person who does not receive Christ's payment, dies like the Christian but his eternal life is found in Revelation 20:10 and 20:15 They are cast into the lake of fire where the devil, beast, and false prophet are. Their payment for sin and refusing Jesus' payment will suffer being separated from God forever and ever. There are some theologians who emphasize the rewards for Saints, and believe that those in the lake of fire will have differing degrees of discomfort. I guess, that they look at Hitler and feel that someone who is a drunk should not suffer the same judgment. The lake of fire does not consume the individual (as some believe, annihilationism) but the heat is unbearable like the rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:23 "in Hades being in torment ........ send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue".

You use the word torture for those in the lake of fire, and that may be true for some of the people there, but theologians feel that being absent from God's presence, alone, in the dark is equel to the failure to trust Jesus Christ. A lot of theories about the condition of the lake of Fire comes from a misunderstanding of what goes on there because there is so little said about it.

I hope this helps.

I agree that "death is the opposite of life". But then you talk about "earthly realm", "the next phase", "separation from this realm", "entrance into the next; the good, new realm", "separated from God forever and ever", "the lake of fire does not consume the individual", et cetera.

My Bible doesn't say anything about "leaving an earthly realm". Could you establish this with scriptural support? I believe that the penalty for sin is death and the reward for believers is eternal life because I read in the Bible that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Death is the absence of Life. Eternal life is being alive forever. Being dead is not being alive in another place, because death is the opposite of life.

 

[Chopper]

You realize that within the story of the rich man and Lazarus (whether parable or real), the rich man is said to have living brothers running around on Earth right?

The rich man is in torment in Hades, not the Lake of Fire. It's talking about pre-resurrection events. Called the intermediate state. There's been no resurrection, much less judgment or final punishment yet in that story. Yet because it is so often brought up, when the topic of this thread is post resurrection treatment of the lost, it does confuse people indeed.

I agree that "death is the opposite of life". But then you talk about "earthly realm", "the next phase", "separation from this realm", "entrance into the next; the good, new realm", "separated from God forever and ever", "the lake of fire does not consume the individual", et cetera.

My Bible doesn't say anything about "leaving an earthly realm". Could you establish this with scriptural support? I believe that the penalty for sin is death and the reward for believers is eternal life because I read in the Bible that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Death is the absence of Life. Eternal life is being alive forever. Being dead is not being alive in another place, because death is the opposite of life.

The rich man and Lazarus is a true story. I know that some say it is not, however, a parable is meant to teach truth. Truth to the ones that the Father has chosen to identify Himself, and hide truth from unbelievers. More believe that a parable which actually names an individual is true, than those who don't. Anyway, a parable, teaches Spiritual Truth. The fact that the rich man had brothers in a place other than where he was, demonstrates that the rich man was not in the earthly realm as you and I know. Read Revelation 20:14, We see a temporary restraining place called "death & Hades", being cast into their permanent restraining place. And we have the same for believers in Christ. We have a temporary restraining place for believers, If you read the entire 17th Chapter of the Gospel of John, you will see a lot of truth of which we are talking about....Your main question, Chessman, was about the rich man, not being judged. That's right! The place that the rich man was, was temporary!

Now for you TimothyW, Glad to see that you're a biker!! My first bike was a 1954 panhead. 40 years of riding. Electra Glide was my last. RIDE SAFE! My first question is; which Bible are you using....Leaving an earthly realm? Look at John Chapter 17. Like I told Chessman, there is a lot of truth in that Chapter for you. Look at Verse 15. "I do not ask that you take them out of the world"....You say, "being dead is not being alive in another place" You are going to have to supply Scripture for that. Rev. 20:10 says the opposite.

 

[TimothyW]

Now for you TimothyW, Glad to see that you're a biker!! My first bike was a 1954 panhead. 40 years of riding. Electra Glide was my last. RIDE SAFE! My first question is; which Bible are you using....Leaving an earthly realm? Look at John Chapter 17. Like I told Chessman, there is a lot of truth in that Chapter for you. Look at Verse 15. "I do not ask that you take them out of the world"....You say, "being dead is not being alive in another place" You are going to have to supply Scripture for that. Rev. 20:10 says the opposite.

Hey Chopper, Yep, that's my Harley, a 2004 1200 Sportster with Screaming Eagle pipes. I put leather bags on it since the pic was taken. I always try to ride safe, always a helmet, obey the law, and watch out for my fellow motorists who don't always pay attention to the road or to motorcycles.

For my daily Bible reading, in the New Testament I read a chapter a day in the Original Greek. For the Old Testament, right now I'm reading the ESV, although I also read the NIV, NLT, and especially the NASB.
Okay, I'm looking at the scriptures you cited now...John 17:15 (and the whole chapter). "I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one." (ESV) Okay, I do not see that this verse (or any verse in John 17) says that dead people live on, on a different world. Can you connect the dots on this for me? On being dead is not being alive, I thought that was common sense. Shouldn't you supply the scripture that says "Being dead is not being dead, but instead it is being alive"? I see that you quote Rev 20:10 for that. " and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (ESV) I'm sorry, once again I am not seeing what you are seeing. This verse doesn't say "being dead is being alive in another place".

I'm really asking for solid proof, not speculation. The Bible says that there are two possible outcomes, "perishing" or "having eternal life". See John 3:16. That's what I believe. "whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life", and whoever doesn't believe in him will perish and will not have eternal life. That's what I believe, because that's what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't talk about dead people living on in different realms.
See Psalm 37. The whole Psalm is good. Look especially at verse 20 "the wicked will perish", and verse 10 "the wicked will be no more". "Being no more" is what happens to the wicked when they perish.

Now, before you say "the body dies but not the soul", know that Ezekiel 18:4 says "The soul who sins shall die", and Matt 10:28 says that the body and the soul will be destroyed in Gehenna.

 

[Chopper]

Hey Chopper, Yep, that's my Harley, a 2004 1200 Sportster with Screaming Eagle pipes. I put leather bags on it since the pic was taken. I always try to ride safe, always a helmet, obey the law, and watch out for my fellow motorists who don't always pay attention to the road or to motorcycles.

For my daily Bible reading, in the New Testament I read a chapter a day in the Original Greek. For the Old Testament, right now I'm reading the ESV, although I also read the NIV, NLT, and especially the NASB.
Okay, I'm looking at the scriptures you cited now...John 17:15 (and the whole chapter). "I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one." (ESV) Okay, I do not see that this verse (or any verse in John 17) says that dead people live on, on a different world. Can you connect the dots on this for me? On being dead is not being alive, I thought that was common sense. Shouldn't you supply the scripture that says "Being dead is not being dead, but instead it is being alive"? I see that you quote Rev 20:10 for that. " and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (ESV) I'm sorry, once again I am not seeing what you are seeing. This verse doesn't say "being dead is being alive in another place".

I'm really asking for solid proof, not speculation. The Bible says that there are two possible outcomes, "perishing" or "having eternal life". See John 3:16. That's what I believe. "whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life", and whoever doesn't believe in him will perish and will not have eternal life. That's what I believe, because that's what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't talk about dead people living on in different realms.
See Psalm 37. The whole Psalm is good. Look especially at verse 20 "the wicked will perish", and verse 10 "the wicked will be no more". "Being no more" is what happens to the wicked when they perish.

Now, before you say "the body dies but not the soul", know that Ezekiel 18:4 says "The soul who sins shall die", and Matt 10:28 says that the body and the soul will be destroyed in Gehenna.

Hey Biker Dude, I'm really concerned about the fact that you can't interpret clear Scriptures. The Rev. 20:10 text says "they will be tormented, tormented day and night forever and ever". In order to be tormented day and night forever and ever speaks being alive, don't you think? Being tormented, is the result of rejection of Jesus Christ. So the wages of sin is death, and being tormented day and night forever and ever. That is being dead but alive in another place! Can't you see that? It seems to me that you are caught in something other than classic Christian doctrine. I'm just being honest here.

 

[WIP]

I don't recall if this text has been mentioned in this thread yet or not but maybe it applies?

Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[chessman]

Hey Biker Dude, I'm really concerned about the fact that you can't interpret clear Scriptures. The Rev. 20:10 text says "they will be tormented, tormented day and night forever and ever". .

Rev 20:10 says THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The THEY are not human!

Clearly and undeniably (via Scripture, if you really study them) these three are NOT human.

The THEY are: 1) Satan, 2) The Beast and 3) The False Prophet.

Satan clearly is not human, right?

The Beast and The False Prophet are not either. Here’s just one of at least four Scriptural reasons that neither the Beast nor The False Prophet are either.

THEY were already in the Lake of Fire (where Satan himself was sent) prior to the resurrection and Judgment! And clearly the Bible said they were sent there forever and ever. They cannot just pop back out of the Lake of Fire (as some people say they can) when Scripture says they were sent there forever.

Not until you get to Rev 20:13 do you get to the resurrection and judgment and banishment of the lost humans.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.​

Your view has The Beast and The False Prophet (who were not in “the sea” or “hades” but rather already in the Lake of Fire) missing out on the resurrection, judgment and Jesus saying to them “depart from me”.

Don’t you see that’s a problem? If not, I can point to Scriptures that say it is. I suspect you know it already however. Maybe just never thought about how it’s a conflict here if these two are humans.

I’m just being honest here. I’m concerned you are not representing Scripture accurately.

 

[chessman]

I don't recall if this text has been mentioned in this thread yet or not but maybe it applies?
Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Actually, not it’s not been mentioned directly. But why not. It’s the last of the “top three” that people point to, to teach ECT. But what does it really teach?

You highlighted parts of verse 41 and part of 46. I guess I’m now way more on the ‘annihilation’ side of the fence and what I say to verse 41 is … fine. No problem. I see no conflict with it. Satan’s and his demons’ fire is everlasting. But we are talking about humans. That doesn’t mean that when humans are sent there (the Lake of Fire), they do not receive their just penalty, that “second death” that’s both “body and soul” just as Rev 20:14 and Matt 10:25 says they will:

Matthew 10:28 (ESV) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [geenne].​

Rev 20:14 This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

Note how it doesn’t say anything after Rev 20:15 other than that’s the losts’ “second death”.

As for verse 46. Again, no problem.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.​

A “second death” sentence is everlasting punishment! What's more everlasting than a final killing of the soul and the body? Never to return (like the lost did after the first death. Note even the contrast and indeed a conflict with the ECT view in verse 46. “life eternal” is for the saved, not the unsaved. Even if it were a painful life, it’s still life eternal. It’s actually a passage that supports a “second death” sentence/judgment more than it does ECT.

 

[Chopper]

I don't recall if this text has been mentioned in this thread yet or not but maybe it applies?

Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is a very good post WIP, these fellows can't seem to grasp the truth that when a person dies, he goes to another life! That is basic classic Christian doctrine. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned". I'm really concerned about their comprehension of Spiritual matters. I love these guys and pray that the Holy Spirit will take the blinders away.

 

[chessman]

This is a very good post WIP, these fellows can't seem to grasp the truth that when a person dies, he goes to another life! That is basic classic Christian doctrine. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned". I'm really concerned about their comprehension of Spiritual matters. I love these guys and pray that the Holy Spirit will take the blinders away.

I appreciate that. And maybe He will. But in the meantime, can you tell me what Scripture teaches you that The False Prophet and The Beast are humans? Other than you just think they are?

 

[TimothyW]

Hey Biker Dude, I'm really concerned about the fact that you can't interpret clear Scriptures. The Rev. 20:10 text says "they will be tormented, tormented day and night forever and ever". In order to be tormented day and night forever and ever speaks being alive, don't you think? Being tormented, is the result of rejection of Jesus Christ. So the wages of sin is death, and being tormented day and night forever and ever. That is being dead but alive in another place! Can't you see that? It seems to me that you are caught in something other than classic Christian doctrine. I'm just being honest here.

Chessman replied well, but I find it interesting that you think that I can't interpret clear Scriptures, when I am merely repeating what the scriptures clearly say. What does John 3:16 say in your Bible? What does Revelation 20:10 say in your Bible? I'm sure that it doesn't say that dead people are really alive. Who is Revelation 20:10 talking about? What does it say in your Bible? What three things are said to be tormented? What type of literature is the Book of Revelation? What is the major characteristic of this type of literature? When I give scripture support for what I believe, the scriptures actually support what I am saying. Romans 6:23 really does say that the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life. I am saying that the wages of sin is death. That's no surprise, because I got my doctrine from reading the Bible. I believe the only two options are perishing or having eternal life, because John 3:16 says "Whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life". You seem to believe that the unsaved will go to hell when they die where they will live forever in torment, and you give scriptural "proof" of that which doesn't say that the unsaved go to hell when they die where they will live forever in torment. Doesn't that suggest a problem with your doctrine? Aren't you concerned that there isn't any scripture that you can point to that says what you are saying?

And if I believe what the Bible says over "classic Christian doctrine", that really isn't a problem for me. That seems to be a bigger problem for "classic Christian doctrine". If "classic Christian doctrine" doesn't agree with the Bible, I will stick with the Bible. I believe the traditional doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell was an error made by the later church and was not part of original Christian doctrine. I don't wish to follow that error.

From your objections, it seems that you have not read over the previous posts in this thread. Please take the time to review the thread, so that I will not have to re-answer the same objections that another poster tossed in here.

 

[Chopper]

Rev 20:10 says THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The THEY are not human!

Clearly and undeniably (via Scripture, if you really study them) these three are NOT human.

The THEY are: 1) Satan, 2) The Beast and 3) The False Prophet.

Satan clearly is not human, right?

The Beast and The False Prophet are not either. Here’s just one of at least four Scriptural reasons that neither the Beast nor The False Prophet are either.

THEY were already in the Lake of Fire (where Satan himself was sent) prior to the resurrection and Judgment! And clearly the Bible said they were sent there forever and ever. They cannot just pop back out of the Lake of Fire (as some people say they can) when Scripture says they were sent there forever.

Not until you get to Rev 20:13 do you get to the resurrection and judgment and banishment of the lost humans.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.​

Your view has The Beast and The False Prophet (who were not in “the sea” or “hades” but rather already in the Lake of Fire) missing out on the resurrection, judgment and Jesus saying to them “depart from me”.

Don’t you see that’s a problem? If not, I can point to Scriptures that say it is. I suspect you know it already however. Maybe just never thought about how it’s a conflict here if these two are humans.

I’m just being honest here. I’m concerned you are not representing Scripture accurately.

If you jump down to Rev. 20:14 it says that death & hades were thrown into the lake of fire, they were humans!

 

[Chopper]

I appreciate that. And maybe He will. But in the meantime, can you tell me what Scripture teaches you that The False Prophet and The Beast are humans? Other than you just think they are?

They may appear as human, I don't think that they actually were. Quite frankly, I've never studied that. The anti-christ may be human, like Judas.

 

[Chopper]

Chessman replied well, but I find it interesting that you think that I can't interpret clear Scriptures, when I am merely repeating what the scriptures clearly say. What does John 3:16 say in your Bible? What does Revelation 20:10 say in your Bible? I'm sure that it doesn't say that dead people are really alive. Who is Revelation 20:10 talking about? What does it say in your Bible? What three things are said to be tormented? What type of literature is the Book of Revelation? What is the major characteristic of this type of literature? When I give scripture support for what I believe, the scriptures actually support what I am saying. Romans 6:23 really does say that the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life. I am saying that the wages of sin is death. That's no surprise, because I got my doctrine from reading the Bible. I believe the only two options are perishing or having eternal life, because John 3:16 says "Whoever believes in him will not perish but will have eternal life". You seem to believe that the unsaved will go to hell when they die where they will live forever in torment, and you give scriptural "proof" of that which doesn't say that the unsaved go to hell when they die where they will live forever in torment. Doesn't that suggest a problem with your doctrine? Aren't you concerned that there isn't any scripture that you can point to that says what you are saying?

And if I believe what the Bible says over "classic Christian doctrine", that really isn't a problem for me. That seems to be a bigger problem for "classic Christian doctrine". If "classic Christian doctrine" doesn't agree with the Bible, I will stick with the Bible. I believe the traditional doctrine of eternal conscious torment in hell was an error made by the later church and was not part of original Christian doctrine. I don't wish to follow that error.

From your objections, it seems that you have not read over the previous posts in this thread. Please take the time to review the thread, so that I will not have to re-answer the same objections that another poster tossed in here.

If you don't believe that dead people who rejected Jesus Christ, when they die, eventually are thrown into the lake of fire, alive, and are tormented forever, I have no more to say to you. I have given you, along with WIP & others, ample Scripture to prove that you are wrong. We could argue for months, but I'm not going to. There is a point where I cease to communicate, and this is it. Good by.