Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[jeff77]

why does it matter so much?

Well, just here on the internet, not very much but what if a pastor of a Baptist church for example calls a meeting with his staff and says something like "Starting this Sunday we are going to start teaching that non-believer's cease to exist after they die and do not spend eternity in Hell being tortured".

 

[chessman]

No, frankly, I can't. This is one of the verses that seem to bolster your case. I'll have to look into it when I have time. If I remember right, there is a reasonable explanation, I just can't remember it at the moment.

Fair enough. But it's worth pointing out that a 1st-19th century Christian reader didn't have websites to study. How would they take Jesus' words? They seem plain enough just as they are written, yet even John warns his readers, that his vision needs Some splainin.

 

[chessman]

Well, just here on the internet, not very much but what if a pastor of a Baptist church for example calls a meeting with his staff and says something like "Starting this Sunday we are going to start teaching that non-believer's cease to exist after they die and do not spend eternity in Hell being tortured".

Well, take it from my empirical experience, they don't take it very well. Even still, when presented with the positive case against ECT and for a true "second death (of body and soul)", and asked specifically for their positive case for ECT, you get that blank stare or worse, just the last resort "it's laughable" name calling "argument".

 

[jeff77]

Okay, but to me (someone just about ready to change and call myself an anhilistionist (once i learn how to spell it i do see humans being sent to Hell (the Lake of Fire). It's their place of their second death (that's both body and soul).

Sorry, I left it out again. I understand that people are sent there but they are destroyed there. If I am understanding this right. Annihilasionist believe that they are thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed. Although they are destroyed and not conscious they are still there. It's hard for me to understand why a place would be needed for people not to exist consciously.
Kind of like you were saying earlier, I am also not trying to change anybodies mind or be argumentative. I just want to learn what other people think and be a part of a conversation.

 

[JLB]

You are wrong. And i can prove it.

You can ? When?

 

[Butch5]

Sorry, I left it out again. I understand that people are sent there but they are destroyed there. If I am understanding this right. Annihilasionist believe that they are thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed. Although they are destroyed and not conscious they are still there. It's hard for me to understand why a place would be needed for people not to exist consciously.
Kind of like you were saying earlier, I am also not trying to change anybodies mind or be argumentative. I just want to learn what other people think and be a part of a conversation.

Hi Jeff,

I believe people are thrown into the Lake of Fire and are destroyed. However, I don't believe they are still there afterwards if that is what you mean. I can see where that would be confusing.

 

[dadof10]

If that's your best take on this, yes. I'll just move on to the second Scripture that shows The Beast and The False Prophet are not human. I don't think it's proper to say "everyone else" but The False Prophet and The Beast when the Scripture says All men will be eaten by the birds.

The point is not how they died, but the fact that they were never eaten by the birds. I never said they would die by the birds, The Scripture says the birds would eat the FLESH of ALL men (not eat them alive). But they did not eat the flesh of The Beast or The False Prophet. I think they did eat the flesh of all humans as they were called to do (not just all of them except two or one depending on your view of The Beast).

My second Scriptural argument next:

So it's the word "all" that your argument hinges on? Do you think the birds will feast on the flesh of people who died before this battle? Or, more to the point, people who are thrown into hell before this battle? Do you think he means the birds will feast on the flesh of people who are in heaven, like Moses and Elijah? They are human, right? Jesus is Human, right? Is He included in this "feasting"?

Scripture plainly says the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, then, AFTER THAT, the birds feast on the humans who are killed by the sword. That's what "the rest..." means. You are reaching...

 

[dadof10]

Fair enough. But it's worth pointing out that a 1st-19th century Christian reader didn't have websites to study. How would they take Jesus' words? They seem plain enough just as they are written, yet even John warns his readers, that his vision needs Some splainin.

At the risk of getting censured, the first through 19 century Christian had the Holy Spirit guided Church and didn't believe in sola-scriptura. But, that's another thread...

 

[dadof10]

I believe the person ceases to exist at their first death.Then they are resurrected to life for judgment.

They cease to exist, then are brought back into existence for the judgment? Really? I've heard of people who believe in "soul sleep", where we are allegedly put to sleep until the judgment, but I've never heard that we are completely wiped out of existence, then reanimated. That's a new one on me.

Then unbelievers go to their second death. I don't see why you insist that the second death proves the first death isn't death or how any of this proves that death doesn't mean death or how any of this proves that death really means eternal life. People who are consumed by the fire do not remain alive.

All I'm insisting is that the word "death" does not have to mean annihilated or "cease to exist". It MUST have other meanings because there is such a thing as a second death. this assumes the first DEATH is not an annihilation nor that the person who dies ceases to exist. Therefore, when Paul says "The wages of sin is death..." he could (and does) mean that because we are sinners, death was brought into the world.

 

[chessman]

So it's the word "all" that your argument hinges on?

Yes and no. All men! To which I take all living men (not dead and rotted ones). The one's that had flesh for the birds to eat. Not any in Hades.

Your reaching to suggest I thought otherwise.

Do you think the birds will feast on the flesh of people who died before this battle? Or, more to the point, people who are thrown into hell before this battle? ...

No. Nor do I think that's what John's vision meant. But again, I do think he meant what he said. All men's flesh living at that time. You're reaching to think he excluded The False Prophet and The Beast from his statement.

Scripture plainly says the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, then, AFTER THAT, the birds feast on the humans who are killed by the sword. That's what "the rest..." means. You are reaching...

You realize that the call to the birds was to eat the flesh of ALL men right? Not all but two of them. You're the one that's stretching.

 

[dadof10]

Second Evidence from Scripture: The specific question here is whether The False Prophet and/or The Beast within John’s vision are humans or not.

First remember Jesus’ teaching in the Gospels (comes way earlier than John’s vision):

Matt 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’​

The point is, Jesus says that some place has been prepared for BOTH Satan and his angels(demons) external to John’s vision but surely consistent with it.

Second,

Rev:20 1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.​

So here we have Satan himself joining The Beast and The False Prophet (who avoided being eaten by the birds and were thrown alive there earlier in Rev 19:20) in “The Bottomless Pit” or “The Lake of Fire” for “1000 years” (if in fact it's the same place).
Then:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out [of the pit] to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, … ​

10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

So here we see the harmony with Matt 25:41 (that is only if The Beast and The False Prophet are in fact demons. If they are humans, there's no harmony described in John's vision. Where is the place "prepared for the Devil and his angels (if not the Lake of Fire?) It cannot be the "bottomless pit".

My point is, The False Prophet and The Beast, had spent 1,000 years in the Lake of Fire within John’s vision, with Satan having been in “the bottomless pit”, released to Earth then in Rev 20:10, Satan joins them (these two, since humans ARE NOT YET SENT THERE) in The Lake of Fire. But they didn’t become human during that time period. The Lake of Fire was “prepared” for this event. It was “prepared for the Devil and his angels”.

So if John’s vision is accurate to Jesus’ teaching in the Gospel, the place prepared for The Devil is "The Lake of Fire" (it cannot be the bottomless pit) and guess who’s there also? His angels (The False Prophet and The Beast).

So this is why I think John means for us to see The Beast and The False Prophet as demons (not humans).

It doesn't say ONLY the devil and his angels. Do you think humans go to this place to be annihilated? I think you do. How can these humans go to the place prepared for ONLY the devil and his angels? You are still reaching...

I don't have enough time to deal with the rest of your post. I will try to get to it tomorrow.

 

[chessman]

At the risk of getting censured, the first through 19 century Christian had the Holy Spirit guided Church and didn't believe in sola-scriptura. But, that's another thread...

Yes another thread. But there is a relationship to the specific subtopic of this thread:

Are you familiar with what Aquinas and Irenaeus and others like them thought about "The Beast's" and "The False Prophet's" humanity?

Aquinas had this to say of Irenaeus' study of this subject: "According to the opinion of the Blessed Irenaeus this [The Beast] is to be understood, as the false prophet”. In other words He thought John actually meant them to be the same in their true identity.

Or this from Aquinas "
It has often been learned historically, both from Apollonius and others, that demons speak through wooden statues, animals, trees and water by means of sorcery. Therefore, there is nothing unreasonable for even the adjutant of the Antichrist, working through demons to make an image for the beast and show it speaking, and to prepare and to destroy those who do not worship it."

 

[chessman]

It doesn't say ONLY the devil and his angels. Do you think humans go to this place to be annihilated? I think you do. How can these humans go to the place prepared for ONLY the devil and his angels? You are still reaching...

I don't have enough time to deal with the rest of your post. I will try to get to it tomorrow.

No Problem.

Yes, I know it doesn't say ONLY the Devil and His Angels. And Yes humans get sent there for their "second death". But note, that the False Prophet and The Beast and The Devil all three get sent there for what's NOT described as their second death. It actually says forever and ever for Satan, The False Prophet and The Beast are said to still be alive there (I think). That's my point. That's why it's prepared "for them". John clearly says Satan is sent there (where The Beast and The False Prophet are). They are there already (still there while Satan has his time on Earth in fact) and remain there "forever and ever". BEFORE all (there's that word again) the dead humans are raised and receive their judgment.

Your view means that two humans get their judgment and "departure from me" via fax (I guess) without actually standing before Jesus to receive it (since they're already in The Lake of Fire forever and ever). I have a problem with that.

That's why I think your view is a stretch.

 

[dadof10]

Yes and no. All men! To which I take all living men (not dead and rotted ones). The one's that had flesh for the birds to eat. Not any in Hades.

OK, not any in Hades, good. So people who were there alive at the time, at the great battle. Not anyone who wasn't there, not anyone who had passed away before this, not people who were SOMEWHERE ELSE AT THE TIME OF THE BATTLE, right?

Your reaching to suggest it thought otherwise.

No. Nor do I think that's what John's vision meant. But again, I do think he meant what he said. All men's flesh living at that time. You're reaching to think he excluded The False Prophet and The Beast from his statement.

You realize that the call to the birds was to eat the flesh of ALL men right? Not all but two of them. You're the one that's stretching.

Let me try this one more time.

"Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, "Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great." (Rev. 19:17-18)

The birds were commissioned to eat the flesh of all men. So far, so good?

"And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army." (v.19)

The men who were going to get their flesh eaten were "gathered to make war against" Jesus. What comes next?

"And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur." (v.20)

The beast and the false prophet were captured, either before or during the war, and they were "thrown alive into the lake of fire". What comes next?

"And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh." (v.21)

It was only after the battle that the birds gorged on the flesh of "all men". It was also after the beast and the false prophet were captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. They were not on Earth anymore, they were in the lake of fire.

Here is the chronological chain of events:

1) The birds are commissioned to eat the flesh of "all men".
2) The beast and his army of men gather to make war against Jesus and His army.
3) The beast and false prophet are captured and thrown into the lake of fire. They are not on earth any more.
4) The rest were slain on earth and only THEN did the birds eat the flesh of all men who were there.

As you said above, this "all" didn't include men who were in "Hades". It doesn't include men who were in the lake of fire either. This verse doesn't speak to the subject. If you will humbly accept these facts we can move on to your next attempt.

 

[chessman]

This verse doesn't speak to the subject. If you will humbly accept these facts we can move on to your next attempt.

We should move on, yes. I do not accept your take since at the time in the chronology of the vision that the birds were called, The False Prophet and The Beast were on the earth just like all the others. Only later are they treated differently than the rest. I'd considered your point before.

I think it's much clearer, in fact required, just to see them as demons. That's why they get different treatment and are captured, versus all other "kings/men" who were slain by the sword.

How do you get rid of a demon? With a sword and birds eating its flesh, or let God (Jesus) "capture" it and send it to the Lake of Fire forever?

Note, one of my other Scriptures points out that here in the "chronology" as you point out The Beast and The False Prophet are not around for the feast of the birds. Guess what else they are not around for. The Resurrection of the dead and Final Judgment!

But i do see how you've come about your position on this text so we can move on, sure.

I already posted my other arguments for why they are not meant to be understood as humans.

I would love for you to describe any errors in them to me. I do appreciate your time. If, for example, you had pointed out some error in my logical argument or out right misunderstanding of Rev 19:17-21, I'd want to know it.

Let me back-up, i guess you did point out an slight error in my logic. I should have made it crystal clear that "all men" are all those alive and on Earth at the time the birds are commissioned by God for a task. Not dead men long buried.

Again, i do see what you are saying about Rev 19.

 

[Chopper]

We see in Revelation Chapter 20 that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all thrown into the lake of burning sulfur and they are tormented day and night forever and ever.
Then those whose names were not written in the Book of Life were thrown into the lake of fire.

Now whatever this lake of fire is, it certainly does not say that they will perish, but rather they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Very good post allenwynne, go get um!:sword

 

[chessman]

Very good post allenwynne, go get um!:sword

You realize that Allenwynne's point was Biblically inaccurate? The Beast and The False Prophet were thrown into the Lake of Fire in Chapter 19, not 20. All the while Satan roamed the Earth, they were already in the Lake of Fire. They were there already, never to be released, as it says "forever and forever" at the time they were sent there in chapter 19.

Now, if that's true (and I'm open to being proven wrong but assuming it is true) do you think it's significant that The Beast and The False Prophet are in The Lake of Fire, prepared for Satan and his demons, at the time all the unsaved dead humans are raised, judged before Christ, then ordered to depart to the Lake of Fire?

Do you think this means The Beast and The False Prophet are demons or human?

 

[reba]

Whoa this is not ET so back the topic even if moderator

 

[chessman]

Whoa this is not ET so back the topic even if moderator

The topic is Eternal torment of the lost in Hell versus their death . A verse has been mentioned that describes The Beast and The False Prophet being in eternally tormented. Is it not on topic to discover whether The Beast and The False Prophet are meant to be understood as lost humans or Satan's demons?

 

[reba]

The friendly reminder was not directed at any one member, nor is it up for debate ....Threads have a way for growing into something other then the OP. We try to keep them on track..