Eternal life being tormented in Hell or Death, What is the wages of sin?

[TimothyW]

This is a very good post WIP, these fellows can't seem to grasp the truth that when a person dies, he goes to another life! That is basic classic Christian doctrine. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned". I'm really concerned about their comprehension of Spiritual matters. I love these guys and pray that the Holy Spirit will take the blinders away.

And we will pray that the Holy Spirit will take your blindfold off as well.
Read these scriptures:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hebrews 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 7:13 Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

When a person dies, they do not go to another life. That is not death, that is moving. The one who said "surely you will not die" was the serpent in the garden of Eden. The devil. It is a lie. The wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says. I can understand spiritual things, and I accept the things of the Spirit of God. I do not accept things that are not from God, and are not written in the God's Word. What I am saying is taken directly from the Bible. What you are saying is not written in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 2:14 says "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned". This doesn't not apply to those of us who accept and agree with what the Bible says. That verse applies to those who insist on doctrines which are not written in the Bible.

 

[TimothyW]

If you don't believe that dead people who rejected Jesus Christ, when they die, eventually are thrown into the lake of fire, alive, and are tormented forever, I have no more to say to you. I have given you, along with WIP & others, ample Scripture to prove that you are wrong. We could argue for months, but I'm not going to. There is a point where I cease to communicate, and this is it. Good by.

Good bye, If you ever have questions about what the Bible says, you can always come back and ask me. I've given over 50 scripture verses that say exactly the same thing I am saying.
If you insist that the second DEATH is actually ETERNAL LIFE, and don't want to hear anything different then I will leave you alone, for Jesus said "Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

When the scriptures don't support a person's doctrine, they never change their doctrine to match the scripture, they just get angry and leave. I try to be nice, and patiently explain, but the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment is just too attractive to some people.

 

[TimothyW]

Basic Christian Doctrine is not that we will never die when we die.

Basic Christian Doctrine is that we will be resurrected to eternal life when Christ returns after we die. Those who reject Christ will not inherit eternal life from Christ.

 

[chessman]

If you jump down to Rev. 20:14 it says that death & hades were thrown into the lake of fire, they were humans!

Yes. At that point of John's vision (timeline, if you will) all the dead humans are raised from the "sea", "death" and "Hades". But remember. The Beast and The False Prophet were with Satan AT THIS TIME in the Lake of Fire. And they were there forever and ever, remember. They cannot just pop back up to the Judgment from the Lake of Fire.

That's my point. It's a simple little point and a very precise subject. (and for the Mod's it IS on topic) Forget about all the rest, for just a minute and tell me how the fact that The Beast and The False Prophet being in the Lake of FIre at the time of the Judgment before Jesus with ALL the other humans means they "appear human". They obviously appear to be demons, right?

Help me! I mean that literally.

If the Holy Spirit has lead you to such a clear understanding of Scripture to pray for my blinders to be removed about this one little subject (The Beast/The False Prophet being human), then surely you've got at least one Scripture right on the tip of your tongue ready to prove they are human. Right?

You posted a Scripture REv 20:10 and said it proved humans are alive being tormented in the Lake of Fire.

The Rev. 20:10 text says "they will be tormented, tormented day and night forever and ever". In order to be tormented day and night forever and ever speaks being alive, don't you think?

I said they were not humans, then you asked for my blinders to be removed.

Don't just leave the study. Nobody's angry.

Tell me what Scriptures teachs they (The Beast and The False Prophet) are humans. If it's Scripturally ture, I'll beleive it. And try to figure out how may bad interpretation of Rev 20 conflicts with it (this unknown Scripture that teach The Beast and The False Prophet are human).

Or stop using Rev 20:10 to prove humans are tormented eternally in Hell and accusing people that have studied this of being blinded and unable to descern Scripture, because they refuse to say REv 20:10 is about humans.

 

[TimothyW]

Don't just leave the study. Nobody's angry.

I'm a little angry, although I really wish that I wasn't.
I got angry when Chopper said this:

1 Corinthians 2:14 says "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned".

Just because we believe what the BIBLE says instead of his dark ages doctrine, we are not able to accept the things of the Spirit of God? Who does he think he is?

 

[chessman]

I'm a little angry, although I really wish that I wasn't.
I got angry when Chopper said this:

Just because we believe what the BIBLE says instead of his dark ages doctrine, we are not able to accept the things of the Spirit of God? Who does he think he is?

I think he means well.

 

[TimothyW]

I think he means well.

I'm willing to turn the other cheek. I think this should be discussed without malice. We are just discussing what the Bible says. Why do Bible Studies always seem to turn into a fist fight?

 

[WIP]

There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.
There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the lost go to Hell when they die where they are tormented alive for all eternity.
Not one verse says it, and the Bible as a whole does not support Eternal Conscious Torment.

...I believe the Bible. If anyone thinks that I should believe that the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever, all they need to do is point out the Bible verse that says that, and Bingo! I will believe it. It is that simple, IF THE BIBLE REALLY DOES SAY THAT.

I have pointed out a couple places in this thread where I think it does say quite clearly that there is eternal punishment but maybe you are still not accepting them? See the references below.
Mark 9:42-48
Matthew 25:31-46
Please bear in mind that I am not arguing with you but just trying to grow in my understanding and hopefully we both will have that same result. Right now, I think both situations are possible and I'll let God decide what is just. As for me, I believe either scenario is totally and utterly undesirable and equally as frightening.

 

[TimothyW]

I have pointed out a couple places in this thread where I think it does say quite clearly that there is eternal punishment but maybe you are still not accepting them? See the references below.
Mark 9:42-48
Matthew 25:31-46
Please bear in mind that I am not arguing with you but just trying to grow in my understanding and hopefully we both will have that same result. Right now, I think both situations are possible and I'll let God decide what is just. As for me, I believe either scenario is totally and utterly undesirable and equally as frightening.

I believe there is eternal punishment and that eternal punishment is being dead forever. Is death not punishment? Then what is capital punishment? Is death not eternal? Then when does death end for those who do not have eternal life?

Mark 9:42-48 does not say that the lost go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever, can you tell me why you think that it does?
42“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,g it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell,h to the unquenchable fire.i 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Obviously, if something is put into unquenchable fire, it will be consumed by that fire. Do you agree? Now, do you know that Jesus was quoting the last chapter of Isaiah when he said the part about the worm and the fire? If you look it up, it is Isaiah is talking about dead bodies being eaten by worms and fire consuming dead bodies. This is the complete opposite of living souls being tormented by flames and worms.

Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jesus said that only one group goes to eternal life. Are you saying that BOTH groups have eternal life, one in heaven and one in hell? If so, this passage doesn't help you, because Jesus is saying only one group gets eternal life and the other doesn't. And the eternal punishment is not said in this passage to be eternal conscious torment, so this passage doesn't help you establish that either. We both agree and accept that there is eternal punishment. We disagree on what the eternal punishment consists of. You claim the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment, which this passage doesn't say. I am saying the eternal punishment is death, because the Bible specifically says in many place that the punishment for sin is death, perishing, being destroyed, being no more, being burnt to ash, etc etc etc. The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23, John 3:16, many many other verses, I've posted them before.

The passages you've posted do not prove your point, and the passages I've posted specifically say exactly what I am saying. They should, because I got my doctrine from them. I've given over 50 passages that specifically and directly say exactly what I am saying, that only those who are in Christ will have eternal life, and those who reject Christ will not have eternal life, not in Hell, nor anywhere else. They perish just as the Bible says.

 

[dadof10]

Are you familiar with what Aquinas and Irenaeus and others like them thought about "The Beast's" and "The False Prophet's" humanity?

Aquinas had this to say of Irenaeus' study of this subject: "According to the opinion of the Blessed Irenaeus this [The Beast] is to be understood, as the false prophet”. In other words He thought John actually meant them to be the same in their true identity.

Or this from Aquinas "
It has often been learned historically, both from Apollonius and others, that demons speak through wooden statues, animals, trees and water by means of sorcery. Therefore, there is nothing unreasonable for even the adjutant of the Antichrist, working through demons to make an image for the beast and show it speaking, and to prepare and to destroy those who do not worship it."

Aquinas thought the SECOND beast is the same as the false prophet, because they both perform similar actions and seem to have the same role.

"[The second beast] works great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men; and by the signs which it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceives those who dwell on earth, bidding them make an image for the beast which was wounded by the sword and yet lived; and it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast should even speak, and to cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain."

"And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image."

A lot of theologians think the second beast and the false prophet are the same person.

Yes, I know it doesn't say ONLY the Devil and His Angels. And Yes humans get sent there for their "second death". But note, that the False Prophet and The Beast and The Devil all three get sent there for what's NOT described as their second death. It actually says forever and ever for Satan, The False Prophet and The Beast are said to still be alive there (I think). That's my point. That's why it's prepared "for them". John clearly says Satan is sent there (where The Beast and The False Prophet are). They are there already (still there while Satan has his time on Earth in fact) and remain there "forever and ever". BEFORE all (there's that word again) the dead humans are raised and receive their judgment.

Your view means that two humans get their judgment and "departure from me" via fax (I guess) without actually standing before Jesus to receive it (since they're already in The Lake of Fire forever and ever). I have a problem with that.

Why? Does it seem unjust to you? Again, your whole argument seems to hinge on the word "all". It didn't mean without any exceptions when it came to "the flesh of all men" in v.18, why does it have to mean no exceptions here? This reminds me of the old "all have sinned" gotcha when discussing the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary. Paul doesn't mean ALL people without exceptions, otherwise he would be saying that newborn babies and severely mentally handicapped people have committed actual sin. It's the same here. The word "all" doesn't have to mean without exceptions, and doesn't disprove that the false prophet and beast are humans.

That being said, I can't find really any proof that they ARE humans, or demons for that matter. It is left up to us to figure it out, as does other apocalyptic literature of the time. Before I wrote my first post in this thread concerning Allen's take, I looked at a few evangelical websites. All (and I mean all the ones I looked at, not every evangelical website ever created) of them interpreted the false prophet as a human working with Satan. There were different takes on the first beast, but everyone seemed to agree on the false prophet, which is why I posted. I didn't think there was a disagreement within Protestant circles on who the false prophet is. I guess I was wrong.

 

[WIP]

I believe there is eternal punishment and that eternal punishment is being dead forever. Is death not punishment? Then what is capital punishment? Is death not eternal? Then when does death end for those who do not have eternal life?

Mark 9:42-48 does not say that the lost go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever, can you tell me why you think that it does?
42“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,g it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. 43And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell,h to the unquenchable fire.i 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Obviously, if something is put into unquenchable fire, it will be consumed by that fire. Do you agree? Now, do you know that Jesus was quoting the last chapter of Isaiah when he said the part about the worm and the fire? If you look it up, it is Isaiah is talking about dead bodies being eaten by worms and fire consuming dead bodies. This is the complete opposite of living souls being tormented by flames and worms.

Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jesus said that only one group goes to eternal life. Are you saying that BOTH groups have eternal life, one in heaven and one in hell? If so, this passage doesn't help you, because Jesus is saying only one group gets eternal life and the other doesn't. And the eternal punishment is not said in this passage to be eternal conscious torment, so this passage doesn't help you establish that either. We both agree and accept that there is eternal punishment. We disagree on what the eternal punishment consists of. You claim the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment, which this passage doesn't say. I am saying the eternal punishment is death, because the Bible specifically says in many place that the punishment for sin is death, perishing, being destroyed, being no more, being burnt to ash, etc etc etc. The wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23, John 3:16, many many other verses, I've posted them before.

The passages you've posted do not prove your point, and the passages I've posted specifically say exactly what I am saying. They should, because I got my doctrine from them. I've given over 50 passages that specifically and directly say exactly what I am saying, that only those who are in Christ will have eternal life, and those who reject Christ will not have eternal life, not in Hell, nor anywhere else. They perish just as the Bible says.

Playing on words to avoid doing what you said you would do. I guess I read "eternal punishment" the same as I would eternal torment. If one ceases to exist then one cannot be punished for eternity.

Like I've already said, too often we try to rationalize things in such a way that we can accept the consequences. Rationalizing that one will not be punished or tormented for eternity is one way of convincing oneself that the end result will be somehow more humane or bearable or acceptable and so the flip side of not surrendering to God isn't so bad.

I've actually heard people argue this point. They say things like, "Living for me in this life isn't so bad if God will just bleep me out of existence. The punishment is quick, virtually painless, and final. I can live with that." Well, actually they can't because they will die with that philosophy. What a sad thing to hear.

 

[TimothyW]

Playing on words to avoid doing what you said you would do. I guess I read "eternal punishment" the same as I would eternal torment. If one ceases to exist then one cannot be punished for eternity.

Like I've already said, too often we try to rationalize things in such a way that we can accept the consequences. Rationalizing that one will not be punished or tormented for eternity is one way of convincing oneself that the end result will be somehow more humane or bearable or acceptable and so the flip side of not surrendering to God isn't so bad.

I've actually heard people argue this point. They say things like, "Living for me in this life isn't so bad if God will just bleep me out of existence. The punishment is quick, virtually painless, and final. I can live with that." Well, actually they can't because they will die with that philosophy. What a sad thing to hear.

What the? Why do you keep saying that I think there is no punishment? It's Not a rationalization. There absolutely IS an eternal punishment and it absolutely is what the Bible says it is. The wages of sin is death. That is the worst possible punishment. Not only missing out on eternal life with Jesus Christ, but Also being completely destroyed dead. But God's promise to us is that we can have our sins forgiven and have eternal life with Him.

 

[WIP]

Oops, you misunderstood me. I didn't say nor do I think you don't believe there is punishment. Not at all. I agree that death into non-existence is a punishment. However, eternal torment would a fate worse than death into non-existence. Wouldn't you agree?

What I do hear from you is that you refuse to comprehend or accept the possibility that there could be an eternal punishment even when the scriptures support this. I think you might be twisting the words to support your view rather than seeing them as they are. That's all. I could be doing the same thing I suppose.

 

[TimothyW]

Oops, you misunderstood me. I didn't say nor do I think you don't believe there is punishment. Not at all. I agree that death into non-existence is a punishment. However, eternal torment would a fate worse than death into non-existence. Wouldn't you agree?

What I do hear from you is that you refuse to comprehend or accept the possibility that there could be an eternal punishment even when the scriptures support this. I think you might be twisting the words to support your view rather than seeing them as they are. That's all. I could be doing the same thing I suppose.

I agree. Eternal torment would be a worse punishment than eternal death. Does that prove that God has planned eternal conscious torment is the punishment? I don't think so. What about what the bible says? Doesn't that matter? The bible doesn't say that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment. It says the wages of sin is death. But if you insist that the only possible punishment is the worst possible punishment, then eternal conscious torment isn't the punishment either. I can imagine a worse punishment than that. ECT with a toothache. Grin.

 

[chessman]

but everyone seemed to agree on the false prophet, which is why I posted. I didn't think there was a disagreement within Protestant circles on who the false prophet is. I guess I was wrong.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
... Except The Beast and The False Prophet cause i forgot to bring them back from The Lake of Fire and now most websites think they are humans.

 

[TimothyW]

Oops, you misunderstood me. I didn't say nor do I think you don't believe there is punishment. Not at all. I agree that death into non-existence is a punishment. However, eternal torment would a fate worse than death into non-existence. Wouldn't you agree?

What I do hear from you is that you refuse to comprehend or accept the possibility that there could be an eternal punishment even when the scriptures support this. I think you might be twisting the words to support your view rather than seeing them as they are. That's all. I could be doing the same thing I suppose.

I haven't twisted any words. The wages of sin is death. That's what I believe. That's also what the bible says. It's not really a coincidence. What does John 3:16 say?

 

[jeff77]

It has been very informative reading this thread and I really have been thinking of it a lot lately. Just to throw a few things out there. I have heard several sermons on this subject and the pastor compared the word perish to how salt that loses its saltiness but never actually disappears. He also said that the fire mentioned in the Bible May not be a literal fire. Even believers are cleansed with fire. If I remember right he said Jesus used the word fire to describe how bad hell is because there is no other way of explaining it that would make sense to humans. So actually it's even possible that a real fire would be less painful than literal fire.

I believe the answer to this is how you interpret words like death, perish, destroy, destroyed and a few others. Have you ever heard a football team say "we are going to destroy our opponent in today's game"? Of course they didn't mean they were going to literally destroy them. Have you ever been so tired that you said something like "I'm dead" after a long day of hard work?

I also just can't understand how being literally dead forever is punishment. If a person ceases to exist they can't even know they are being punished.

 

[chessman]

I've actually heard people argue this point. They say things like, "Living for me in this life isn't so bad if God will just bleep me out of existence. The punishment is quick, virtually painless, and final. I can live with that." Well, actually they can't because they will die with that philosophy. What a sad thing to hear.

I've heard people say there is no God. Doesn't mean it's true.

I've heard people say I wont to go to Hell, all my rowdy friends will be there. Doesn't mean they think straight.

Again, none of anything you've said (or any other post in this thread) explains how ECT can be true at the same time as "the wages of sin is death, but the free gift is eternal life" is true.

It's one or the other. Wages of sin = ECT or wages of sin = death.

We've explained how death is an eternal punishment. And how The False Prophet is not human.

Can you explain how ECT means death or perish without changing the meaning of death/ perish? Aren't you pretty much just left saying; well eternal torment sounds worse than death so I'll just believe that's what Paul and Jesus meant to say.

With all due respect, that's what it looks like you are doing. You've not explained Rom 6:23 or John 3:16 any other way!

We've explained that a second death does equate to an eternal punishment. Frankly, any four year old can understand that explanation. I'm sure you can too, you just don't like it cause it doesn't sound like what you've heard from other people all you're life. But those are just people talking.

Matt 10:28, John 3:16 and Rom 6:23 are not just people talking. As I've said before, Frankly I'm not trying to convince anyone that ECT is not true, but rather begging for GOOD evidence that ECT is true. It ain't in Rev, Mark 9 or Matt25 just cause it says eternal punishment.

A death sentence IS eternal punishment but eternal torment is NOT to die a second death nor is it to perish.

I assure you, i can read and believe Rom 6:23 and John 3:16 with all confidence (even the death and perish parts).

I assure you, i can tell the lost they will receive an eternal punishment (a judgment and a second even more fearful death than their first ( one of not just the body but their actual soul as well) and miss out entirely on a free gift of eternal life with every confidence i'm speaking Biblically.

Which, be the way, I have never suggested the second death is not painful. My assumption is that's exactly what Jesus meant with 'fear not the first, but fear the second even more'. I think He meant it as a warning. Obviously He knew people feared death. ECT, i guess, just simply ignores Jesus' teaching in Matt 10:28.

WIP, what do you think Jesus means by "destroy both the body and soul in Hell"?

You are so accusatory of our misunderstanding of what qualifies as an eternal punishment and all. Telling us a second death is not an eternal punishment, even though it sure sounds like one.

Help a lowly brother out here, when and where does the body and the soul get destroyed if not in Hell? Or what exactly was Jesus talking about in Matt 10:28?

Cause now i'm confused with it.

Jesus must have meant something other than destroy, right?

 

[jeff77]

I've heard people say there is no God. Doesn't mean it's true.

I've heard people say I wont to go to Hell, all my rowdy friends will be there. Doesn't mean they think straight.

Again, none of anything you've said (or any other post in this thread) explains how ECT can be true at the same time as "the wages of sin is death, but the free gift is eternal life" is true.

It's one or the other. Wages of sin = ECT or wages of sin = death.

We've explained how death is an eternal punishment. And how The False Prophet is not human.

Can you explain how ECT means death or perish without changing the meaning of death/ perish? Aren't you pretty much just left saying; well eternal torment sounds worse than death so I'll just believe that's what Paul and Jesus meant to say.

With all due respect, that's what it looks like you are doing. You've not explained Rom 6:23 or John 3:16 any other way!

We've explained that a second death does equate to an eternal punishment. Frankly, any four year old can understand that explanation. I'm sure you can too, you just don't like it cause it doesn't sound like what you've heard from other people all you're life. But those are just people talking.

Matt 10:28, John 3:16 and Rom 6:23 are not just people talking. As I've said before, Frankly I'm not trying to convince anyone that ECT is not true, but rather begging for GOOD evidence that ECT is true. It ain't in Rev, Mark 9 or Matt25 just cause it says eternal punishment.

A death sentence IS eternal punishment but eternal torment is NOT to die a second death nor is it to perish.

I assure you, i can read and believe Rom 6:23 and John 3:16 with all confidence (even the death and perish parts).

I assure you, i can tell the lost they will receive an eternal punishment (a judgment and a second even more fearful death than their first ( one of not just the body but their actual soul as well) and miss out entirely on a free gift of eternal life with every confidence i'm speaking Biblically.

Which, be the way, I have never suggested the second death is not painful. My assumption is that's exactly what Jesus meant with 'fear not the first, but fear the second even more'. I think He meant it as a warning. Obviously He knew people feared death. ECT, i guess, just simply ignores Jesus' teaching in Matt 10:28.

WIP, what do you think Jesus means by "destroy both the body and soul in Hell"?

You are so accusatory of our misunderstanding of what qualifies as an eternal punishment and all. Telling us a second death is not an eternal punishment, even though it sure sounds like one.

Help a lowly brother out here, when and where does the body and the soul get destroyed if not in Hell? Or what exactly was Jesus talking about in Matt 10:28?

Cause now i'm confused with it.

Jesus must have meant something other than destroy, right?

I have a question? Why can't the words perish and death be interpreted as meaning something different? Aren't other parts of the Bible interpreted? People going into the ministry go to seminary schools to learn how to best interpret scripture right?

 

[chessman]

I have a question? Why can't the words perish and death be interpreted as meaning something different? Aren't other parts of the Bible interpreted? People going into the ministry go to seminary schools to learn how to best interpret scripture right?

In certain contexts, sure. I even said that when texts do say death and by that it means physical death, that there's more to the story. Time in Hades, a resurrection, judgment then ____________. But i do not think Jesus says God can destroy both the body and soul in Hell (after just using a first death as an example of just the body) to mean his statement something like "i'm tired to death" or simply an unpleasant experience awaits them for eternity. I fill in the blank with Jesus' definition in the context that he meant it. Or at least I hope that's what I am doing. I'm open to being shown that I'm wrong in my thinking there. In fact begging for it.