Eternal Security of the Believer !

[savedbygrace57]

felix

I showed not once, not twice, but thrice that the Shepherd is not responsible

No, you have not showed me a verse that says the Shepherd is not responsible for His Sheep !

 

[felix]

felix

No, you have not showed me a verse that says the Shepherd is not responsible for His Sheep !

Go back and read #438, John 15:2, Rom 11:21. True, God is personally responsible for plucking the branches off the vine, breaking the grafted braches from the olive tree and making sure people get more severe judgment, if they don't bear fruit.

Yet, after all these verses, you want to believe a lie. Go and argue with God if you want and He will happily say to people who bear no fruit: I never knew you.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Go back and read #438, John 15:2, Rom 11:21. True, God is personally responsible for plucking the branches off the vine, breaking the grafted braches from the olive tree and making sure people get more severe judgment, if they don't bear fruit.

Yet, after all these verses, you want to believe a lie. Go and argue with God if you want and He will happily say to people who bear no fruit: I never knew you.

Felix, that is not at all what John 15:2 says. It does not say "breaking off." It is translated in many versions as "takes up" or "takes away" but that, unfortunately, is inaccurate.

The word is the Greek airo and literally means "elevate, lift up." The perfect understanding of this is found in the comparison Christ makes of Himself as the True Vine. The Vinedresser (God) lifts up those who do not bear fruit. A vinedresser in a vineyard walks around after a storm with a bucket of soapy water and a soft-bristled brush. He looks for branches that have fallen out of the trellis during the storm and become covered in mud and have lain in dirty water. Picture the Christian who falls into sin. He is that branch. The vinedresser comes along with that bucket and brush and lifts the branches up out of the mud, washes them clean, and ties them back into the trellis, where they can flourish and thrive, and eventually bear fruit. That is what God does with us.

Romans 11:21 refers to those in Israel who have believed only in their heritage for salvation, not trusting in God as their father, Abraham did in Genesis 15:6. He doesn't break anyone off. They were broken off in the "storm" of unbelief. It is only by unbelief that anyone is "broken off" or "cut off." One cannot believe in a fashion that is approved by God and then "not believe" so that he/she is once again separated from God. The graft cannot end its grafting. It can fail to be grafted in by not taking to the graft, failing to flourish and be fed. In that case, it was never truly grafted in at all, but only clung to the branch as long as it could until it's failure to "take root" killed it.

 

[felix]

Felix, that is not at all what John 15:2 says. It does not say "breaking off." It is translated in many versions as "takes up" or "takes away" but that, unfortunately, is inaccurate.

The word is the Greek airo and literally means "elevate, lift up." The perfect understanding of this is found in the comparison Christ makes of Himself as the True Vine. The Vinedresser (God) lifts up those who do not bear fruit. A vinedresser in a vineyard walks around after a storm with a bucket of soapy water and a soft-bristled brush. He looks for branches that have fallen out of the trellis during the storm and become covered in mud and have lain in dirty water. Picture the Christian who falls into sin. He is that branch. The vinedresser comes along with that bucket and brush and lifts the branches up out of the mud, washes them clean, and ties them back into the trellis, where they can flourish and thrive, and eventually bear fruit. That is what God does with us.

John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Who is casting out which branch? Why should God cast out a branch when it is not attached to the vine?

How unbiblical is eternal security?

Matt 7:19-21 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. .. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

You mean, people who call Lord Lord and don't bear fruit by not doing the will of God will miraculously get saved because they think themselves as they were saved?
When did they got saved? When they first time called "Lord Lord"? or when they stopped bearing fruit?

1Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.


Do you think Holy Spirit dwells on unbelievers?

Romans 11:21 refers to those in Israel who have believed only in their heritage for salvation, not trusting in God as their father, Abraham did in Genesis 15:6. He doesn't break anyone off. They were broken off in the "storm" of unbelief. It is only by unbelief that anyone is "broken off" or "cut off." One cannot believe in a fashion that is approved by God and then "not believe" so that he/she is once again separated from God. The graft cannot end its grafting. It can fail to be grafted in by not taking to the graft, failing to flourish and be fed. In that case, it was never truly grafted in at all, but only clung to the branch as long as it could until it's failure to "take root" killed it.

Sorry, the verse doesn't say that:

Rom 11:20 Well [said.] Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

It is not their storm of unbelief that they were broken of, but rather, they are broken by God because of their unbelief.

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix

Go

back and read #438, John
15:2, Rom
11:21.

Neither of those verses state that the Shepherd is not responsible for His Own Sheep !

 

[felix]

felix

Go

Neither of those verses state that the Shepherd is not responsible for His Own Sheep !

I did not say He is not responsible but rather, "He Himself is personally responsible" for plucking from vine and throwing away and/or breaking the grafted branches from olive tree. He is also responsible for making sure the lost sheep is judged worse than Sodom and Gomorrah if it didn't return.

Does those verses miraculously vanish before you?

 

[savedbygrace57]

thisnum

The word is the Greek airo and literally means "elevate, lift up."
The perfect understanding of this is found in the comparison Christ makes of
Himself as the True Vine. The Vinedresser (God) lifts up those who do not bear
fruit.

Thanks, since you brought it up, I will add my comments. The greek word as you have stated [shows you studied] means to lift up. Many of the Elect of God who are in Christ, have not yet begin to bear fruit simply because they have not yet been converted, and God will lift them up, they are still His Sheep.

In fact the very same idea is here Matt 12:11

And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

The Sheep by nature are in the ditch of the fall in adam, and in that condition they are unfruitful. But in due time, by New Birth they are Lifted out of the fall and become fruitful. They hear the word of the Kingdom as here Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Thanks for your comment !

 

[felix]

thisnum



Thanks, since you brought it up, I will add my comments. The greek word as you have stated [shows you studied] means to lift up. Many of the Elect of God who are in Christ, have not yet begin to bear fruit simply because they have not yet been converted, and God will lift them up, they are still His Sheep.

In fact the very same idea is here Matt 12:11

And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

The Sheep by nature are in the ditch of the fall in adam, and in that condition they are unfruitful. But in due time, by New Birth they are Lifted out of the fall and become fruitful. They hear the word of the Kingdom as here Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Thanks for your comment !

Ha ha ha... So, God is going to "lift up the branch" (as in verse 2) and "cast away the branch" (as in verse 6).

(Luke 13:6) He also spoke this parable: "A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
(Luke 13:7) Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?'
(Luke 13:8) But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize [it.]
(Luke 13:9) And if it bears fruit, [well.] But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"

You not only deny Christ's teachings but also teach a false doctrine.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

Different scenario. Here, the branch does not abide in the vine. The unbeliever does not abide in Christ. He is cast into hell. Simple. End of discussion.

 

[felix]

Different scenario. Here, the branch does not abide in the vine. The unbeliever does not abide in Christ. He is cast into hell. Simple. End of discussion.

Why is it even called a branch when it is not in the vine? Does branch grow by itself without the vine ? How ridiculous!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Why is it even called a branch when it is not in the vine? Does branch grow by itself without the vine ? How ridiculous!

Different branch, Felix, different "stock." I actually should have added "True Vine" instead of just vine. A True Vine implies that there is another, untrue, vine, correct? Read it again with a good lexicon in front of you.

 

[felix]

Different branch, Felix, different "stock." I actually should have added "True Vine" instead of just vine. A True Vine implies that there is another, untrue, vine, correct? Read it again with a good lexicon in front of you.

Different stock? So, God is "casting out" a branch that is not even attached to the true vine?

Who is casting out from who from who? How ridiculous!.. you now started to twist scriptures...!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Different stock? So, God is "casting out" a branch that is not even attached to the true vine?

Straw man argument. Not worthy of you. Does the unbeliever in fact go to hell? Yes, he does. Does God cast him there? Yes, He does. Why? Because he never belonged to Him. You, my friend, are the one twisting Scripture to make it read the way you want, and you will not prevail in that effort.

 

[felix]

Straw man argument. Not worthy of you. Does the unbeliever in fact go to hell? Yes, he does. Does God cast him there? Yes, He does. Why? Because he never belonged to Him. You, my friend, are the one twisting Scripture to make it read the way you want, and you will not prevail in that effort.

Strawman argument? That is exactly what the verse says. Never try to twist Christ's words. Also, the word in greek is not "lift up". It simply means "take". In English, you had to use words like "take up", "take away". Is the unfruitful branch "fallen" for God to "lift up"? "lift up" where? As I said, never try to twist Christ's own words. It is His words that will judge you in the last day. His words are living. So, think twice before you try to twist them.

Can you please explain what it means for Holy Spirit to dwell on an (unbeliever?) and destroy him for defiling His temple? When did an unbeliever became His Temple?

1Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Strawman argument? That is exactly what the verse says. Never try to twist Christ's words.

You really need to stop accusing me of "twisting God's word" when I am presenting to you the facts of original languages.

Also, the word in greek is not "lift up". It simply means "take".

It is obvious you have not looked the word up or you would know better than to post that statement. Here's a link. Please use it. See that your ongoing explanation about "take" is utterly inappropriate to the discussion of this verse.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/airo.html

In short, airo can mean nothing but "lift up" and that changes the context in the English versions that, for so long across too many translations, incorrectly rendered it "takes away." Regardless of any continuing protest you may post, it simply does not mean "takes away."

Can you please explain what it means for Holy Spirit to dwell on an (unbeliever?) and destroy him for defiling His temple? When did an unbeliever became His Temple?

Your questions are irrelevant, based as they are on your erroneous interpretation of what the passage says, not on what the original languages say. I suggest you also visit a good commentary, such as John Gill or Matthew Henry, who also support what I have been trying to explain, to your great resistance.

 

[felix]

You really need to stop accusing me of "twisting God's word" when I am presenting to you the facts of original languages.

It is obvious you have not looked the word up or you would know better than to post that statement. Here's a link. Please use it. See that your ongoing explanation about "take" is utterly inappropriate to the discussion of this verse.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/airo.html

In short, airo can mean nothing but "lift up" and that changes the context in the English versions that, for so long across too many translations, incorrectly rendered it "takes away." Regardless of any continuing protest you may post, it simply does not mean "takes away."

Oh really? As I already asked, when did the branch that does not bear fruit fall? Or in your garden all branches that don't bear fruit fall automatically? How stupid!

So, the meaning is "lift up" (according to you) but literally every translation that I can see translates as "take away", "cut off" ... May be you had to teach the translators with your Greek skills.
Refer: http://bible.cc/john/15-2.htm

Interesting and sadly stupid idea:
When Christ mentioned pruning the vine, it does produce more fruits. When does "lifting up a vine branch" will make it fruitful. I am from a vine growing state in Australia. I had never heard such a thing.

lifting up where? yes, to cast away!

Your questions are irrelevant, based as they are on your erroneous interpretation of what the passage says, not on what the original languages say. I suggest you also visit a good commentary, such as John Gill or Matthew Henry, who also support what I have been trying to explain, to your great resistance.

Now, you are point me to a twisted commentary that does not agree with Scriptures?

 

[WIP]

Let's try to remain on topic and avoid the name calling and labeling please.

 

[savedbygrace57]

A Permanent Dwelling !

Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The True Believer is secure because if the Spirits permanent dwelling.

This dwelling denotes a special presence, and a permanent one. In fact its an answer to Christ's intercessory prayer for His Church, His Body whom He gave himself for Jn 14:16

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The Spirit never leaves them, they are sealed unto the Day of Redemption Eph 4:30

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That word seal means:

to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal

a) for security: from Satan

in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing

To confirm :

to make firm or more firm; add strength to; settle or establish

The Spirit also brings anointing as here 1 Jn 2:27

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Notice John says to these believers, He promises them that they shall abide in Him, that is in fellowship with God and Christ !

 

[felix]

A Permanent Dwelling !

Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The True Believer is secure because if the Spirits permanent dwelling.

This dwelling denotes a special presence, and a permanent one. In fact its an answer to Christ's intercessory prayer for His Church, His Body whom He gave himself for Jn 14:16

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The Spirit never leaves them, they are sealed unto the Day of Redemption Eph 4:30

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That word seal means:

to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal

a) for security: from Satan

in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing

To confirm :

to make firm or more firm; add strength to; settle or establish

The Spirit also brings anointing as here 1 Jn 2:27

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Notice John says to these believers, He promises them that they shall abide in Him, that is in fellowship with God and Christ !

Which is why the sealed Holy Spirit will destroy believers who defile their body which is His Temple!

1Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?
1Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.

Nothing in us is for ever. Only Christ is forever and He is our eternal life. Please don't try to separate Christ from Eternal life. If we have Christ we have Eternal Life. If we bear no fruit and reject Him, so does our promise of Eternal life goes with Him.

Also, Never think that being sealed with Holy Spirit means He doesn't turn against you.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Isa 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, [And] He fought against them.

Does God or Holy Spirit change? No!

Every believer is sealed with Holy Spirit. But if any believer rebelled against Him (or) defiled His Temple (or) bear no fruit, Holy Spirit will turn Himself against him as an enemy.

 

[savedbygrace57]

felix

Every believer is sealed with Holy Spirit. But if any believer rebelled
against Him (or) defiled His Temple (or) bear no fruit, Holy Spirit will turn
Himself against him as an enemy.

Thats fable, a Believer is sealed unto the day of redemption Eph 4:30

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.