Eternal Security of the Believer !

[felix]

Scripture tells me that with the faith that's been given to me through the grace of God. You've got a lot to learn felix.

What happened to the rest of the post? Why is it not in your quote? Does that not disprove your point?

Scripture also warns you not to fall short of grace of God.

(Hebrews 12:14) Pursue peace with all [people,] and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
(Hebrews 12:15) looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

While is it free, who told you it is for all? You must be "worthy" to receive it?

(James 4:5) Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
(James 4:6) But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."

Don't think grace is for the proud.

Is "being humble" not required for grace? Is 'not having any root of bitterness' not required for grace?

Yes I have a lot to learn. That does not mean whatever you post is true.

 

[Deborah13]

Who is speaking anything about the Law?

In fact, following the law after the new covenant is abomination to God. (Ref: http://www.churchsw.org/old-covenant )
I also explained the difference in works mentioned by Paul and James in another blog. (Ref: http://www.churchsw.org/faith-and-works-in-salvation ).

Sermon on the mount or practicing righteousness are not works of the Law. These will make you worthy for grace rather than falling short of it.

(Hebrews 12:14) Pursue peace with all [people,] and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
(Hebrews 12:15) looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

No can be worthy of God's grace. We are only righteous because Jesus is righteous. No one can earn a gift or it is no longer a gift. The gift of righteousness. Only the righteous can have eternal life. No one can be righteous enough by their works, whether it be obeying the law, or doing good deeds.

No one can earn grace or faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


No

 

[Guest]

What happened to the rest of the post? Why is it not in your quote? Does that not disprove your point?

Felix, I can disprove your points in many ways, but what's the point of throwing around scripture without faith and belief. Who is Jesus to you, let's discuss that.

 

[felix]

No can be worthy of God's grace. We are only righteous because Jesus is righteous. No one can earn a gift or it is no longer a gift. The gift of righteousness. Only the righteous can have eternal life. No one can be righteous enough by their works, whether it be obeying the law, or doing good deeds.

No one can earn grace or faith.
Ephesians 2:8-9

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


No

Which why I wrote the blog http://www.churchsw.org/faith-and-works-in-salvation

When Paul mentions work, he is referring to work of the law which you can find throughout his letter. Not once, he mentions work as righteous works. When Paul mentions faith, he only meant living faith.
James on the other hand, he refers to work as righteous works required by Christ and differentiates dead from living faith. This I proved using the same examples used by both.


You said: "We are only righteous because Jesus is righteous", is wrong.

Jesus specifically asks us to exceed in righteousness of scribes and Pharisees.
(Matthew 5:20) "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Further, he asks us to be more righteous.
(Revelation 22:11) "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

If we already have righteousness of Christ, how can we be more righteous than Christ? having His righteousness is not a magical coat. It is what we are asked to become. if you consider being righteous as work, then you are terribly mistaken.

 

[Agape]

How does that prove Eternal Security?

Felix, how do you define eternal security?

 

[felix]

Felix, I can disprove your points in many ways, but what's the point of throwing around scripture without faith and belief. Who is Jesus to you, let's discuss that.

So, you can't disprove then? Saying you can, doesn't mean you have. I will take it as you haven't and you can't.

 

[Deborah13]

Okay, this is what I said in both posts:
If we have Christ, we have grace, salvation and eternal life, all promises.
Jesus clearly explains what it means to "believe", "coming to Him" and "following Him".

How does that prove Eternal Security?

We made, both you and I, a decision to believe, by grace through faith, in Jesus as Savior and Lord.
If someone could choose to reject Him (no longer believe in Jesus as their Savior and Lord) then they would lose their salvation. But they would have to reject their salvation. Only a fool would do such a thing if they were truly saved to start with. They may be weak, backslide, have trouble overcoming sin but that doesn't mean they reject their salvation. Paul said he even struggled with sin in the flesh but if you notice he said that it really wasn't him it was his flesh. It is only through faith and grace that we can overcome sin. And works are manifest through us by the Holy Spirit and do not effect our salvation. If one does well in works in this life they will rewarded, in this life and in heaven. If they don't produce fruit of the Spirit they will have meager rewards here and there but they don't lose their salvation. We have given you many scriptures to support this.

 

[Guest]

So, you can't disprove then? Saying you can, doesn't mean you have. I will take it as you haven't and you can't.

Felix again, who is Jesus Christ to you? This will be how I disprove you.

 

[Agape]

Yes, it does contradict. Which is why I posted it here.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; .. (John 15:2)

Let me know who is the branch in Christ and how secure is that branch attached with Christ?

When Jesus used the metaphor of the vine and its branches, who was His audience and when was that?
To whom did Jesus say "you are already clean" (John 15:3)?

The night before His death, Jesus was with His disciples, at least the eleven, since Judas had already been dismissed from the room and was plotting against Him. Why did Jesus use this analogy of the vine and its branches? We know that His Father and the eleven disciples loved Him and we know that Judas did not. So, we have the Father, the Lord, the eleven and Judas.
The vine is Christ, the vinedresser is the Father. The fruit-bearing branches represent the eleven and all true believers. The fruitless branches represent Judas and false disciples.

The Father (the vinedresser) removes false believers even though they appear to be connected to Christ (1 John 2:19)

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit."

This is not saying that true believers can lose their salvation. This does not refute perseverance of the saints or eternal security.

 

[Deborah13]

Which why I wrote the blog http://www.churchsw.org/faith-and-works-in-salvation

When Paul mentions work, he is referring to work of the law which you can find throughout his letter. Not once, he mentions work as righteous works. When Paul mentions faith, he only meant living faith.
James on the other hand, he refers to work as righteous works required by Christ and differentiates dead from living faith. This I proved using the same examples used by both.


You said: "We are only righteous because Jesus is righteous", is wrong.

Jesus specifically asks us to exceed in righteousness of scribes and Pharisees.
(Matthew 5:20) "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Further, he asks us to be more righteous.
(Revelation 22:11) "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still."

If we already have righteousness of Christ, how can we be more righteous than Christ? having His righteousness is not a magical coat. It is what we are asked to become. if you consider being righteous as work, then you are terribly mistaken.

You can earn your way into heaven no matter what you do.

Ok what are the righteous works that you think you can do to be righteous enough to earn your salvation?

 

[felix]

Felix, how do you define eternal security?

It is not "my" definition.
Perseverance of the saints, as well as the corollary—though distinct—doctrine known as "Once Saved, Always Saved", is a Calvinist teaching that asserts that once persons are truly "born of God", or "regenerated" nothing in heaven or earth "shall be able to separate (them) from the love of God" (Romans 8:39). - Eternal Security

However, as I said, quoting Romans 8:39 itself is wrong because, the love of God is not in us but Christ Jesus.

(Romans 8:38) For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
(Romans 8:39) nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is no security for eternity without Christ:
If we have Christ, we have eternal security, salvation, eternal life, and all promises. If we bear no fruit and reject Him, so does we reject eternal security, salvation, eternal life and all promises.

People who say that once someone comes into Faith can never fall away is unbiblical:
(1 Timothy 4:1) Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
(Hebrews 10:39) But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

As I had always said. Eternal Security is only "in Christ". People who believe in Eternal Security, separate it from Christ and think one can never fall away which is unbiblical.

(Luke 9:23) Then He said to [them] all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

If anyone is His sheep, he will follow him and Christ defines what it means to follow Him which includes "daily".

 

[felix]

Felix again, who is Jesus Christ to you? This will be how I disprove you.

Jesus Christ is God in flesh and a normal human like me, who is my Savior if I believe and and obey Him.

 

[Agape]

It is not "my" definition.
Perseverance of the saints, as well as the corollary—though distinct—doctrine known as "Once Saved, Always Saved", is a Calvinist teaching that asserts that once persons are truly "born of God", or "regenerated" nothing in heaven or earth "shall be able to separate (them) from the love of God" (Romans 8:39). - Eternal Security

Thanks Felix, I just wanted to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

"Eternal security" is often seen as synonymous with "Perseverance of the saints." That is, a person who truly trusts in Christ, may have assurance of eternal life with God, and thus be eternally secure. Historically, this comes from a biblical, Calvinistic framework, wherein salvation is secure because the perseverance of the saved person is certain.

Today, however, the doctrine of eternal security is usually expressed without the reference to the perseverance (or continuance) and other means of grace indicative of true saving/justifying faith. This mind-set goes hand-in-hand with the "easy believism" and "carnal Christianity" so prevalent in the evangelical church today. It is characterized by the trite phrase "once saved, always saved", suggesting that one may continue in a life of willful sin and be confident of salvation because he has made a profession of faith in the past. This goes against biblical exhortations, warnings for final salvation and qualifications of true saving faith. For example :

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."
Heb 12:14 "Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord."
Eph 5:5-6 "For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."
1 John 2:3-4 "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;"
1 Cor. 10:1-6 "For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness."
2 Cor 13:5 "Test yourselves {to see} if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?"
James 2:14-17 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,†and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."
Definitive wandering is deadly and maybe a sign that one is not truly saved. Christians in the bible are warned and encouraged over and over again to not give up, but to persevere in faith in order to be saved. "Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial," as James says, "for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." (James 1:12)
http://www.theopedia.com/Perseverance_of_the_saints

 

[Guest]

Jesus Christ is God in flesh and a normal human like me, who is my Savior if I believe and and obey Him.

Yes and no felix, he is your savior because salvation is a gift from God! It has nothing to do with obeying him. Once you're saved, you are sealed until redemption. A sinner doesn't know he is a sinner. Obeying is good and all, but God already knows we aren't perfect. That's why we are sealed!! The only perfect human being was Jesus. Do you understand?

 

[felix]

We made, both you and I, a decision to believe, by grace through faith, in Jesus as Savior and Lord.
If someone could choose to reject Him (no longer believe in Jesus as their Savior and Lord) then they would lose their salvation. But they would have to reject their salvation. Only a fool would do such a thing if they were truly saved to start with. They may be weak, backslide, have trouble overcoming sin but that doesn't mean they reject their salvation. Paul said he even struggled with sin in the flesh but if you notice he said that it really wasn't him it was his flesh. It is only through faith and grace that we can overcome sin. And works are manifest through us by the Holy Spirit and do not effect our salvation. If one does well in works in this life they will rewarded, in this life and in heaven. If they don't produce fruit of the Spirit they will have meager rewards here and there but they don't lose their salvation. We have given you many scriptures to support this.

A "decision to believe" is never considered as "believe" by Christ nor as "faith" by James.

(John 12:46) "I have come [as] a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
(James 2:14) What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

 

[Guest]

Felix, do you mean obey as in Hitler?

 

[Deborah13]

A "decision to believe" is never considered as "believe" by Christ nor as "faith" by James.

(John 12:46) "I have come [as] a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
(James 2:14) What [does it] profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

http://escapetoreality.org

This is the link to a website of a pastor named Paul Ellis. He down there in Aussieland or New Zealand. He has a pretty good teaching on James vs Paul and show how they are in agreement in the "faith v works". It's quite long and I'm not going to try to explain it.

 

[felix]

When Jesus used the metaphor of the vine and its branches, who was His audience and when was that?
To whom did Jesus say "you are already clean" (John 15:3)?

The night before His death, Jesus was with His disciples, at least the eleven, since Judas had already been dismissed from the room and was plotting against Him. Why did Jesus use this analogy of the vine and its branches? We know that His Father and the eleven disciples loved Him and we know that Judas did not. So, we have the Father, the Lord, the eleven and Judas.
The vine is Christ, the vinedresser is the Father. The fruit-bearing branches represent the eleven and all true believers. The fruitless branches represent Judas and false disciples.

The Father (the vinedresser) removes false believers even though they appear to be connected to Christ (1 John 2:19)

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit."

This is not saying that true believers can lose their salvation. This does not refute perseverance of the saints or eternal security.

Why do you add "they appear to be connected" when the verse says nothing about it?

The verse you took 1 John 2:19 to prove your point does not say what you meant but rather antichrist. Even if we take 1 John 2:19, they were once belonging to the same group as others who were true believers.
(1 John 2:18) Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
(1 John 2:19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but [they went out] that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

If you take the whole chapter, no where Eternal security is even hinted.

(1 John 2:1) My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
(1 John 2:2) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
(1 John 2:3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

(1 John 2:4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

(1 John 2:9) He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.
(1 John 2:11) But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

(1 John 2:29) If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

 

[Deborah13]

We actually gotten off topic somewhat.
You Felix have not shown were anyone lost their salvation in the Scriptures or where it says someone lost their salvation. If it is true it would seem there would have been a clear accounting of it so it would be very plain just as the ones that teach someone receiving salvation or the Holy Spirit?

 

[felix]

Felix, do you mean obey as in Hitler?

I haven't seen Hitler nor does know what it means to obey Hitler. Sorry, I have no experience in that, so I can't help you.