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Eternal Security of the Believer !

savedbygrace57 said:
felix

Thats fable, a Believer is sealed unto the day of redemption Eph 4:30

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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What is fable?

(Isaiah 63:10) But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, [And] He fought against them.

Did Holy Spirit changed in NT times? God never changes.

(Luke 11:13) "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

God giving Holy Spirit is not new for NT times. It has been from the beginning.

(Psalms 51:11) Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Was Paul joking when he meant this:
(1 Corinthians 3:17) If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.
 
felix said:
What is fable?

(Isaiah 63:10) But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, [And] He fought against them.

Did Holy Spirit changed in NT times? God never changes.

(Luke 11:13) "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

God giving Holy Spirit is not new for NT times. It has been from the beginning.

(Psalms 51:11) Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Was Paul joking when he meant this:
(1 Corinthians 3:17) If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which [temple] you are.
Click to expand...

The Holy Spirits work BEFORE THE CROSS, is much different for those who have been justified by the Cross.
Even Paul who turn over those who defiled the body with sexual lust, did so that the "spirit might be saved"

Yes those who sow to the flesh will reap the fruit of that, but the flesh cannot save nor can it unsave the believer.

The only biblical way to be "cut off" from Christ is to go back into law and legalism. Self-righteousness and rejection of the Spirit of Grace.
 
Mitspa said:
The Holy Spirits work BEFORE THE CROSS, is much different for those who have been justified by the Cross.
Even Paul who turn over those who defiled the body with sexual lust, did so that the "spirit might be saved"

Yes those who sow to the flesh will reap the fruit of that, but the flesh cannot save nor can it unsave the believer.
Click to expand...

(1 Corinthians 5:1) It is actually reported [that there is] sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles -- that a man has his father's wife!
(1 Corinthians 5:2) And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
(1 Corinthians 5:3) For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
(1 Corinthians 5:4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(1 Corinthians 5:5) deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1 Corinthians 5:6) Your glorying [is] not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
:
(1 Corinthians 5:9) I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
:
(1 Corinthians 5:11) But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner -- not even to eat with such a person.


Paul is saying not even to have company with such people. He is not saying that his spirit will be saved but rather, through his destruction of his flesh, he will come to repentance and cannot do this grave sin again through which he may his spirit may be saved.

This is Paul's style of writing or saying and nothing new:
(1 Timothy 1:20) of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

He is using his own words to quote and refer (Proverbs 23:14) You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.

This is in no way preaches eternal security.

Mitspa said:
The only biblical way to be "cut off" from Christ is to go back into law and legalism. Self-righteousness and rejection of the Spirit of Grace.
Click to expand...

On the contrary, Jesus Himself said the following:

(Matthew 7:19) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
(Matthew 7:20) "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
(Matthew 7:21) " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
(Matthew 7:22) "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
(Matthew 7:23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

It is practicing lawlessness and not bearing good fruit is what that cuts off anyone from Christ even though they call Him Lord Lord.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
That True Believers can loose their Salvation is one of the most God and Christ dishonoring doctrines that a man can utter ! Its nothing less than taking a shot at and discrediting the very Power of God [Blasphemy] which is keeping the Believer through Faith unto that Salvation that is ready to be revealed 1 Pet 1:5

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now I am not referring to every false believer, but to all those believers in Christ who hath been begotten again unto a lively hope [Faith] by [not their freewill] the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

These have been begotten again ! Now this word begotten ins the greek word anagennao:

to produce again, be born again, born anew

metaph. to have one's mind changed so that he lives a new life and one conformed to the will of God

It is those who have been produced again, born anew. It also means to have been given one a Change of Mind, which is Repentance. The greek word used for Repentance is metanoia and means:

a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

So we can now see from scripture that a Change of Mind, Repentance is an effect of having been begotten again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, it cannot be made any plainer.

The word for begotten again is also translated born again in 1 Pet 1:23

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Now these born again ones are being kept by the power of God through Faith ! And for what purpose are they being kept ? Unto Salvation ready to be revealed.
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well if thats the case then Jesus warns the seven churches for nothing, someone should of sent the Son of God the memo that His warnings were a waste of time, that they would naturally by Gods power turn from sins leading to eternal death and be saved.......OSAS by far the most unbiblical of all doctrines
 
vocalyocal said:
well if thats the case then Jesus warns the seven churches for nothing, someone should of sent the Son of God the memo that His warnings were a waste of time, that they would naturally by Gods power turn from sins leading to eternal death and be saved.......OSAS by far the most unbiblical of all doctrines
Click to expand...


Thats God's People could loose Salvation is most dishonoring to God Power and I have showed multitudes of reasons why !
 
felix
Already replied for it in post #461.
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You may have, but it does not change nothing. Eph 4:30

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That word sealed means:

to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
a) for security: from Satan

b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret

c) in order to mark a person or a thing

1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp

2) angels are said to be sealed by God

d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing

They are sealed and confirmed unto Christ's Return 1 Cpr 1:8

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Thats God's People could loose Salvation is most dishonoring to God's Power !
Click to expand...

again someone should of told Jesus and the apostles, seems they wasted a whole lot of time with all the warnings and rebukes, why warn Christians of anything, once they believe God will bring them to heaven one way or another
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Thats God's People could loose Salvation is most dishonoring to God's Power !
Click to expand...

Which god are you talking about ? your god?

Unfortunately, the God of the Bible is never dishonored for people misunderstanding God's Power.

If you want, you can shout all day saying, God has the Power to lie, but the God who never lies says, I never knew anyone who practice lawlessness.

(Hebrews 10:26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
(Hebrews 10:27) but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
(Hebrews 10:28) Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(Hebrews 10:29) Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
(Hebrews 10:30) For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
 
savedbygrace57 said:
felix


You may have, but it does not change nothing. Eph 4:30

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That word sealed means:

to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
a) for security: from Satan

b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret

c) in order to mark a person or a thing

1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp

2) angels are said to be sealed by God

d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing

They are sealed and confirmed unto Christ's Return 1 Cpr 1:8

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...

Yes, the believers are sealed with Holy Spirit who is given as a guarantee of our inheritance. No one denies it. But, that does not mean the Holy Spirit will not destroy the believer for defiling his body i.e, His Temple (1 Corinthians 3:17). Paul specifically warns not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30) and Isaiah 63:10 explains what will happen for grieving the Holy Spirit.

Somehow, you conveniently ignore 1 Corinthians 3:17 and Isaiah 63:10 and take upon sealing from Eph 4:30 which no one even argues about.

Also regarding 1 Cor 1:8,

(1 Corinthians 1:4) I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus,
(1 Corinthians 1:5) that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge,
(1 Corinthians 1:6) even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you,
(1 Corinthians 1:7) so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(1 Corinthians 1:8) who will also confirm you to the end, [that you may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Corinthians 1:9) God [is] faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes, true.. as long as Christ is in any believer, so does Eternal Life is present in him and he is confirmed through Him. The moment he rejects Christ and don't bear fruits, so does Eternal life goes with Him.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A True Believer is born of God, and such a one keepeth himself 1 Jn 5:18

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Not only is He Kept by God's Power, that same power enables him and causes them to keep themselves from sinning, meaning they cannot apostatize!
 
felix

But, that does not mean the Holy Spirit will not destroy the believer for
defiling his body
Click to expand...

Eph 4:30

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Christ confirms them unto the End 1 Cor 1:8

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
A True Believer is born of God, and such a one keepeth himself 1 Jn 5:18

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Not only is He Kept by God's Power, that same power enables him and causes them to keep themselves from sinning, meaning they cannot apostatize!
Click to expand...

Let me add the 2 verses that follows:

(1 John 5:18) We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
(1 John 5:19) We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies [under the sway of] the wicked one.
(1 John 5:20) And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

As long as anyone is in Christ, so does he inherits all blessings and promises. If we reject him by bearing no fruit, so does we lose all blessings, promises including eternal security.
 
vocalyocal said:
again someone should of told Jesus and the apostles, seems they wasted a whole lot of time with all the warnings and rebukes, why warn Christians of anything, once they believe God will bring them to heaven one way or another
Click to expand...

The warnings and rebukes that a True believer hears from God are God's Means of keeping them by His Power, its the way of Life for them. Prov 10:17

17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.

All God's Children, Sons partake of that..Heb 12:5-10

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

There is no danger in them being rebuked and instructed, and warned !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
felix

Yes, My God is the True God that made the Heavens and the Earth !
Click to expand...

(Romans 8:9) But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
(Romans 8:10) And if Christ [is] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin, but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
(Romans 8:11) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
(Romans 8:12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors -- not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
(Romans 8:13) For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
The warnings and rebukes that a True believer hears from God are God's Means of keeping them by His Power, its the way of Life for them. Prov 10:17

17 He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.

All God's Children, Sons partake of that..Heb 12:5-10

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

There is no danger in them being rebuked and instructed, and warned !
Click to expand...




thats just silly!
 
felix said:
(1 Corinthians 5:1) It is actually reported [that there is] sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles -- that a man has his father's wife!
(1 Corinthians 5:2) And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
(1 Corinthians 5:3) For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
(1 Corinthians 5:4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(1 Corinthians 5:5) deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1 Corinthians 5:6) Your glorying [is] not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
:
(1 Corinthians 5:9) I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
:
(1 Corinthians 5:11) But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner -- not even to eat with such a person.


Paul is saying not even to have company with such people. He is not saying that his spirit will be saved but rather, through his destruction of his flesh, he will come to repentance and cannot do this grave sin again through which he may his spirit may be saved.

This is Paul's style of writing or saying and nothing new:
(1 Timothy 1:20) of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

He is using his own words to quote and refer (Proverbs 23:14) You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.

This is in no way preaches eternal security.



On the contrary, Jesus Himself said the following:

(Matthew 7:19) "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
(Matthew 7:20) "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
(Matthew 7:21) " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
(Matthew 7:22) "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
(Matthew 7:23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

It is practicing lawlessness and not bearing good fruit is what that cuts off anyone from Christ even though they call Him Lord Lord.
Click to expand...
Destruction of the FLESH, not the spirit!
You seem to be able to make the scriptures say what ever you think they should say? You add meanings and take away that which is contrary to your doctrines. The Holy Spirit works according to the Blood of Christ and they cannot disagree. So according to your doctrine this man became "unsaved" and then he was saved again when he repented? Thats not biblical at all!

The strength of sin is the law and Paul stated clearly that those who attempt to be justified by the law are CUT OFF from Christ. The law is not of faith and all those who are under law are under the curse of the law.

That no man is justified by law is evident, so you are in great error and are teaching a doctrine that is contrary to the Gospel that Paul preached. Another gospel, a different Jesus and a different spirit.
 
Anybody who argues either side of this topic is only reading the half of the bible they want to support their ideal, not what the bible says orchestratively about this topic. There is a dichotomy concerning the dynamics behind what either argument is based upon that are together in scripture, are evident in practicum and without both halfs, imbalance is only the result. Faith says we don't have to make complete and explainable what God did not.

The theologies behind either side of this argument are tantamount to adding to the revealed Word of God... That should not be taken lightly.
 
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