Eternal Security of the Believer !

[felix]

We actually gotten off topic somewhat.
You Felix have not shown were anyone lost their salvation in the Scriptures or where it says someone lost their salvation. If it is true it would seem there would have been a clear accounting of it so it would be very plain just as the ones that teach how to receive salvation?

I don't understand how it is off topic?
You receive salvation "in Christ". Salvation is not given to you. If you have Christ, you have salvation. it is as simple as that. This is how you receive salvation. Don't think it is a separate parcel excluding Christ

The point being, ... Salvation is NEVER given to anyone. The present tense of Salvation is only because of Christ within us.

(Hebrews 9:28) so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(1 Peter 1:5) who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't understand how it is off topic?
You receive salvation "in Christ". Salvation is not given to you. If you have Christ, you have salvation. it is as simple as that. This is how you receive salvation. Don't think it is a separate parcel excluding Christ

The point being, ... Salvation is NEVER given to anyone. The present tense of Salvation is only because of Christ within us.

(Hebrews 9:28) so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(1 Peter 1:5) who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Really, if it wasn't given to me where and how did I get it?

 

[Agape]

Why do you add "they appear to be connected" when the verse says nothing about it?

The verse you took 1 John 2:19 to prove your point does not say what you meant but rather antichrist. Even if we take 1 John 2:19, they were once belonging to the same group as others who were true believers.
(1 John 2:18) Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
(1 John 2:19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but [they went out] that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

If you take the whole chapter, no where Eternal security is even hinted.

(1 John 2:1) My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
(1 John 2:2) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
(1 John 2:3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

(1 John 2:4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

(1 John 2:9) He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.
(1 John 2:11) But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

(1 John 2:29) If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Wait a second, I did not say that it proves eternal security. I said that it does not refute it.
Now, let me answer your question.

Why do you add "they appear to be connected" when the verse says nothing about it?

John 15:2 reads, " Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;"
A branch in Christ that does not bear fruit means what? A branch physically connected to Christ but fruitless. So, it appears connected but because it is fruitless, it is taken away.
Makes sense?

 

[Guest]

I haven't seen Hitler nor does know what it means to obey Hitler. Sorry, I have no experience in that, so I can't help you.

Hitler as in the German Dictator in WW2, he wanted to control the world.
Salvation is given felix, because man's heart is darkened by sin.
If you have Christ?? Well, how do you obtain Christ?

 

[Deborah13]

The point being, ... Salvation is NEVER given to anyone. The present tense of Salvation is only because of Christ within us.

Ephesians 2:8-9

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 For by grace you have been saved (past tense) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Felix, what is the gift?
Where does this grace come from?
Where does this faith come from?

 

[Mitspa]

What happened to the rest of the post? Why is it not in your quote? Does that not disprove your point?

Scripture also warns you not to fall short of grace of God.

(Hebrews 12:14) Pursue peace with all [people,] and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
(Hebrews 12:15) looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

While is it free, who told you it is for all? You must be "worthy" to receive it?

(James 4:5) Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
(James 4:6) But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble."

Don't think grace is for the proud.

Is "being humble" not required for grace? Is 'not having any root of bitterness' not required for grace?

Yes I have a lot to learn. That does not mean whatever you post is true.

Who is proud? the self righteous who go about to establish their own righteousness and have not submitted to righteousness of God by faith. Who is humble but those who have no confidence in the flesh and would not be found in their own righteousness which is by the law, but the righteousness of God through faith.

Only those who are secure in Christ are humble, those who reject so great a salvation are yet in their pride.

 

[Deborah13]

Wait a second, I did not say that it proves eternal security. I said that it does not refute it.
Now, let me answer your question.
John 15:2 reads, " Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;"
A branch in Christ that does not bear fruit means what? A branch physically connected to Christ but fruitless. So, it appears connected but because it is fruitless, it is taken away.
Makes sense?

Actually the GK word is airo and means "to lift up". In a vineyard the husbandman will lift up a weak, damaged, or dirty vine branch, clean it and tie it up to the trellis to support it so that it gets light and can bear fruit. Sounds just like our loving Savior.

 

[reba]

Not necessarily directed at the last poster ( who posted while I was reading the thread)

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Mitspa]

Why do you add "they appear to be connected" when the verse says nothing about it?

The verse you took 1 John 2:19 to prove your point does not say what you meant but rather antichrist. Even if we take 1 John 2:19, they were once belonging to the same group as others who were true believers.
(1 John 2:18) Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
(1 John 2:19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but [they went out] that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

If you take the whole chapter, no where Eternal security is even hinted.

(1 John 2:1) My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
(1 John 2:2) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
(1 John 2:3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

(1 John 2:4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

(1 John 2:9) He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now.
(1 John 2:11) But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

(1 John 2:29) If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Are you saying that John is saying we are under the Law of Moses? That the commandments he is referring to is the 10 commandments and that the "righteousness" he is speaking of is the righteousness of the works of the law of moses?

If you are? Your not supposed to be secure in salvation, because you are still tying to earn it by the flesh and works of the flesh. No one will ever see the gospel who is trying to "earn" salvation by works. God does not want these folks to be secure in their dead works! He will not allow them to have peace until they repent and turn to Christ and away from their sin. Which they are held in, by the law. For the strength of sin is the law, and the law is not of faith, it produces sinful desires in these people and they are slaves to sin.

For sin will not have dominion over you, because you are not under law but under grace.

 

[felix]

John 15:2 reads, " Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;"
A branch in Christ that does not bear fruit means what? A branch physically connected to Christ but fruitless. So, it appears connected but because it is fruitless, it is taken away.
Makes sense?

How does a branch "physically connected to Christ" appears connected?

 

[Deborah13]

How does a branch "physically connected to Christ" appears connected?

In the Greek it does not say "take away".

Actually the GK word is airo and means "to lift up". In a vineyard the husbandman will lift up a weak, damaged, or dirty vine branch, clean it and tie it up to the trellis to support it so that it gets light and can bear fruit. Sounds just like our loving Savior.

Look it up in Strong's Felix.

 

[felix]

Really, if it wasn't given to me where and how did I get it?

Through Christ. As I said earlier, if you have Christ abiding in you, you have eternal life through Him.

(1 John 3:23) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
(1 John 3:24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

It is like who is with you rather than who you are.

 

[felix]

Hitler as in the German Dictator in WW2, he wanted to control the world.
Salvation is given felix, because man's heart is darkened by sin.
If you have Christ?? Well, how do you obtain Christ?

(1 John 3:23) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
(1 John 3:24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[Deborah13]

Through Christ. As I said earlier, if you have Christ abiding in you, you have eternal life through Him.

(1 John 3:23) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
(1 John 3:24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

It is like who is with you rather than who you are.

Yes, it was given to me by God when I told Jesus I wanted to have Him in my life, that I thanked Him for what He did at the cross for me and repented of being a sinner against Him. I became born again. So He Gave me salvation as a gift. He paid for my sins and redeemed me.

Sowho are we in Christ, we are children of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. We are the justified, righteous in Him, children of God.

 

[felix]

Ephesians 2:8-9

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 For by grace you have been saved (past tense) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Felix, what is the gift?
Where does this grace come from?
Where does this faith come from?

(Ephesians 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
(Ephesians 2:5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
(Ephesians 2:6) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
(Ephesians 2:7) that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,
(Ephesians 2:9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Grace is a gift. It is not given to us directly but placed in Christ Jesus. If you have Christ, you have grace.
To illustrate, it is like you walking with a King. As long as you walk with the King, you receive honor from everyone - not that honor is given to you but you receive honor because of who you are walking with. If you reject the King and walk away and displease Him, so do you lose everything that is "promised".

Definition of Faith in Christ according to Paul:
(Acts 24:24) And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
(Acts 24:25) Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and answered, "Go away for now; when I have a convenient time I will call for you."

 

[Deborah13]

(Ephesians 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
(Ephesians 2:5) even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
(Ephesians 2:6) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
(Ephesians 2:7) that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Ephesians 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,
(Ephesians 2:9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.



Grace is a gift. It is not given to us directly but placed in Christ Jesus. If you have Christ, you have grace.
To illustrate, it is like you walking with a King. As long as you walk with the King, you receive honor from everyone - not that honor is given to you but you receive honor because of who you are walking with. If you reject the King and walk away and displease Him, so do you lose everything that is "promised".

Definition of Faith in Christ according to Paul:
(Acts 24:24) And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.
(Acts 24:25) Now as he reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and answered, "Go away for now; when I have a convenient time I will call for you."

How do you define walk away? What are some of the righteous works that you must do to earn your salvation?

 

[felix]

Who is proud? the self righteous who go about to establish their own righteousness and have not submitted to righteousness of God by faith. Who is humble but those who have no confidence in the flesh and would not be found in their own righteousness which is by the law, but the righteousness of God through faith.

Only those who are secure in Christ are humble, those who reject so great a salvation are yet in their pride.

I am not speaking about self righteousness which is by the law. I am speaking about the righteousness required by Christ.

Christ speaks about a requirement of righteousness:
(Matthew 5:20) "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Which righteousness? Read on... the next verses.

• (Matthew 5:21-22) " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
• (Matthew 5:27-29) " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast [it] from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
• (Matthew 5:33-34) " Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
• (Matthew 5:38-39) " You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
• (Matthew 5:43-45) " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

if you follow all what Christ said, then you have Righteousness of God by His own definition.

 

[Agape]

How does a branch "physically connected to Christ" appears connected?

False believers outwardly attach themselves to Christ. They appear to be Christians because they act like Christians.

 

[felix]

How do you define walk away?

(Matthew 7:21) " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Those who don't do the will of the Father in Heaven - walks away.

(Matthew 7:23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Those who practise lawlessness - walk away.

What are some of the righteous works that you must do to earn your salvation?

I just posted above and will post again.

Christ speaks about a requirement of righteousness:
(Matthew 5:20) "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Which righteousness? Read on... the next verses.

• (Matthew 5:21-22) " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
• (Matthew 5:27-29) " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast [it] from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
• (Matthew 5:33-34) " Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;
• (Matthew 5:38-39) " You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
• (Matthew 5:43-45) " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

If you follow all what Christ said, then you have Righteousness of God by His own definition. If not, all that He said as consequence will happen.

 

[Deborah13]

(1 John 3:23) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
(1 John 3:24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Would you please try to answer the questions just by reading Eph 2:8-9?

Ephesians 2:8-9

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 For by grace you have been saved (past tense) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Felix, what is the gift?
Where does this grace come from?
Where does this faith come from?

It's clear to me that you wish to honor your Lord in everything you do and that is pleasing to Him that your heart wants to please Him. However, it dishonors Him when we think that what we do is earning what He has given freely.