Eternal Security of the Believer !

[savedbygrace57]

feli

Please don't read scriptures out of context.

The context is fine. The scripture plainly says God is Faithful to keep them from evil, you either believe it or you don't ! 2 Thess 3:3


3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

God in His Faithfulness does Two things for believers #1 He stablishes them and #2 He keeps them from evil !

 

[jasoncran]

sigh?

so its sit back and repent and dont bother to repent and just pray a simple prayer and its done? really that isnt salvation its not easy believism.

while ones works in salvation arent required its evendence of it.

but then why would jesus say this

he that endureth to the end the same shall be saved?

if it christs doing that then why would he says such a thing? it would be repent and i will carry you to heaven instead you must choose to remain in him.

seriously i hope this eternal security types here are consistent as it implies that you have no freewill to choose sin over christ. that no matter what you will go to heaven. you may not attend church as a kid when you went faithfully but by God you will thrown in to heaven despite you not wanting to go.

and theres this in peter!

2 peter 2:

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

denying the lord that bought them. for ye were bought with a price. why then does paul say pray that ye are worthy at the appeareance of the lord coming with his saints? if you are already worthy why then would he say that? i will tell you he means seek and keep seeking him and you will be worthy as he will cleanse you.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

sigh?

so its sit back and repent and dont bother to repent and just pray a simple prayer and its done? really that isnt salvation...

So according to you the thief on the cross was LOST and the person dying on their death bed CANNOT BE SAVED by grace alone!

You have added to the gospel and Jesus' works and sacrifice!

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Romans 10:3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" - Galatians 3:1-3

Now please answer my question, so far you have evaded it:

Are you saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to be saved and have eternal security? Yes or No?

 

[jasoncran]

So according to you the thief on the cross was LOST and the person dying on their death bed CANNOT BE SAVED by grace alone!

You have added to the gospel and Jesus' works and sacrifice!

Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Romans 10:3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" - Galatians 3:1-3

so according to you( I HATE THIS AD HOMINEIMS BTW) I CAN SIN ALL I WANT AND STILL GET TO HEAVEN?

Theres no connations in the bible of the church is like a marriage? and what does one do in a marriage?hmm work at it. this means you can choose to divorce God and also your spouse and walk away.

i never said nothing on works budd. i said you can choose to walk away slowly. read the contexts of the verses i did post.

and peter says clearly denying the very lord that bought them! meaning at one time the false prophet were christians.

in another place this is said one corinthian 6

19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's

if one was bought and did what peter said, deny the lord kindly tell me what would happen to your soul.

it would be sent to hell if one didnt repent. and those types that did probably wont repent.

peter clearly stated that those false prophet deny the one who bought them! if you can do that then you are lost.

please understand what a marriage is to the lord, and in context of why he calls it that? its a two way relationship

why then if salvation is so secured and locked in did christ say this
revalation 2

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

why would he say that to them i can even show where he says he that overcometh. does that mean just to repent and sit back, if its eternal and non-losable why then would he say it that way, he that overcomes is will get this in heaven? or i will in no wise blot out of my book?

here
revalation 3

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

so if we have overcome at the initial repentence what of these churches? God gives us a victory but what did he mean by overcome.

 

[jasoncran]

for the record one can loose one salvation by:

denying the lord

verses shown on that
failing to continue in him meaning that we can willfully and knowingly grow cold and too the point we wont care.

these are hard to do but if there was no possible way why then would it even be in the bible? why would jesus warn the seven churches of this pending judgment if they didnt repent?

we can ask the lord to help us in our weakness and and he will give us strength,

do you really think that by a simple prayer you will always serve the lord that he will do it all for you and just sit back and wont sin and be perfect? no, we have to carrry our cross this isnt works but to daily choose to read the bible, go to church and repent when convicted . if we do that we wont be lost.

but we can stop those things and sooner or later grow cold. yes God will pursue us but he cant make us come back.

the thief on the cross isnt the rule on a lot of things as how many christian live few hours after salvation. most of us have time to be baptised as that is a command , to recieve the holy ghost(thou neither will get you to heaven) but if god commands it and one rebel i wonder if you ever get to heaven.

love requires acts to show thats it real, if my wife one day stopped loving me and never talked to me and left, would i be so stupid to think she still loved me?NO,

why is that christians think that they can do that with the lord and still be saved?

 

[felix]

And what about you Felix? Are you saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to be saved and have eternal security? Yes or No?

The question is wrong. Your question has nothing to do with eternal security.

Let me rephrase your question.
Is it POSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to fall away to lose salvation? Answer: Yes

 

[n2thelight]

The question is wrong. Your question has nothing to do with eternal security.

Let me rephrase your question.
Is it POSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to fall away to lose salvation? Answer: Yes

Amen!!

 

[ivdavid]

I haven't read in detail yet, but having skimmed this thread quickly, I find that those objecting to eternal security are operating under a skewed understanding of what it is. I'll join the discussion when I've read the posts properly. For now, I'd like to just comment on this last post I saw -

Is it POSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to fall away to lose salvation? Answer: Yes

I understand the theological grounds and the practical observations that influence this - and I'm not getting into a theological debate at all now. I'd like to address this more semantically - having no direct relevance to theology. Just a simple analysis of statements in the English language.

1. To fall away and lose salvation refers to ceasing to have faith in Jesus. Would you agree?

2. If you do agree, then the question actually is - Is it POSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to later, not have faith in Jesus?
Do you have any objections to this?

3. Now semantically, far removed from any direct theological reference, "faith" means to be fully persuaded in one's mind regarding the truth of something. In case one needs a Biblical reference and not just a 'secular' reference, I could point to the whole context of Romans 14, and then specifically to v.5 there. Would you have any objections to this working definition of 'faith'?

4. If you're with me so far, the question now becomes - Is it POSSIBLE for a Christian who is fully persuaded in his mind regarding the truth in Jesus - to later, not be fully persuaded in his mind regarding the truth in Jesus?

5.a) To be fully persuaded, again semantically, implies that you don't have any doubts regarding that which you're fully persuaded in ie you are persuaded of the truth against all other persuasions to the contrary. Any objections?

5.b) The above concludes that once you're 'fully persuaded' in something, you cannot become 'not fully persuaded' in that very thing - theoretically and semantically, this is an impossibility.

6. But we see this happening all round us - in fact, we ourselves would have felt a change in our own 'firm' convictions at some point in time. That still doesn't permit a logical impossibility - what we must then say to resolve this is that we were 'not fully persuaded' back then - and that is to say "we didn't have faith back then".

So your question seems to break down because of semantic inconsistency and hence can never be answered. Of course, all this is very theoretical and a new model must be discussed to make sense of what happens practically out there - I'm merely attempting to show the boundaries that limit our conclusions.

I do acknowledge that I may have committed some error in assumption in the above treatment - I'd be glad to clarify/retract this when pointed out the problem areas. Also, I have dealt with this only on a semantic level and not on any Scriptural basis at all. To get into that, we must discuss and concur on what that truth is that we ought to believe, for us to be saved.

 

[n2thelight]

I once asked a Baptist who had a position of authority this question:


If a person is saved but then two years later they
1. Reject Jesus Christ
2. Become a Satan worshipper
3. Commit sins worse than Adolph Hitler
4. Live this way for the next 50 years
5. They go to their grave blaspheming God and declaring their hatred for Him and also declare their love and loyalty to Satan.
I asked if they thought this hypothetical person was still saved and their answer was yes they are still saved. I knew then that the OSAS teachers have rejected all aspects of Biblical thinking.

For those who believe in osas,what's your answer to the above question?

 

[Saltwater]

Hello ivdavid,

I find your semantic presentation quite interesting but as you state in the following: "1. Also, I have dealt with this only on a semantic level and not on any Scriptural basis at all. 2. To get into that, we must discuss and concur on what that truth is that we ought to believe, for us to be saved."

1. We can present all the semantic twists & turns of logic that we like but it will be the scriptures which will be our ultimate test for determining whether a Christian can lose their salvation.

2.In order to avoid a lengthy side track (rabbit trails? per savedbygrace57) re your desire to first 'discuss & concur what that truth is that we ought to believe, for us to be saved', may I suggest Acts20:21 & 1Cor15:1-8 as our foundation?

The we can get stuck into some of the ways that the Bible says Christians can lose their salvation.

 

[ivdavid]

For those who believe in osas,what's your answer to the above question?

If that's what OSAS is, then why post it in a thread on eternal security - because that's not what eternal security is. The security provided by God is not the securing you against missing out on the kingdom of God as such but rather the securing you against falling from faith in Jesus Christ - in turn, sanctifying you unto eternal life in His kingdom.

 

[n2thelight]

If that's what OSAS is, then why post it in a thread on eternal security - because that's not what eternal security is. The security provided by God is not the securing you against missing out on the kingdom of God as such but rather the securing you against falling from faith in Jesus Christ - in turn, sanctifying you unto eternal life in His kingdom.

Because I think both are the same,if Im wrong please correct me by explaining the difference......

 

[n2thelight]

Let me just put it like this,Christ will never leave you,but you can leave Him

 

[felix]

1. To fall away and lose salvation refers to ceasing to have faith in Jesus. Would you agree? Yes

2. If you do agree, then the question actually is - Is it POSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to later, not have faith in Jesus?
Do you have any objections to this? No Objections.

3. Now semantically, far removed from any direct theological reference, "faith" means to be fully persuaded in one's mind regarding the truth of something. In case one needs a Biblical reference and not just a 'secular' reference, I could point to the whole context of Romans 14, and then specifically to v.5 there. Would you have any objections to this working definition of 'faith'? I object. The context of Romans 14 is not about people doubting 'faith in Christ' itself, but people having 'weak faith' like the SDA who consider eating vegetables and a day special.

(Heb 6:4-8) For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, [it is] rejected and near to being cursed, whose end [is] to be burned.

 

[ivdavid]

We can present all the semantic twists & turns of logic that we like but it will be the scriptures which will be our ultimate test for determining whether a Christian can lose their salvation.

And to draw your conclusions from Scripture, shouldn't you first grasp the "meaning" of the Scriptural text(the semantics) and "understand" its implications(the logic)? Are you telling me that people can determine truth without such truth making any semantic or logical sense?

As for me, I believe God IS meaning and order - He IS semantics and logic. He cannot deny Himself. He cannot be semantically inconsistent or logically contradictory. And so, if I come across anything that is without doubt semantically or logically inconsistent, I conclude that that cannot be descriptive or reflective of God - because it's against His very nature.

I find your semantic presentation quite interesting...

I'm glad about that. But the interest quotient wasn't the objective - discussing its truth was the objective. Is there any falsehood you see in it? Do you see any "twists and turns" that are not true - for then, I will readily retract it. Because no contradiction or fallacy can ever manifest truth - and that's what we're seeking here.
I still reiterate, if the premise that "one who has faith can lose such faith" is found to be self-contradictory, then it simply cannot be true. Besides, I was only putting 1John 2:19 in context.

may I suggest Acts20:21 & 1Cor15:1-8 as our foundation?

from 1Cor 15:1-8, I've drawn these points that we ought to believe, -
1. Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
2. Jesus died for our sins.
3. Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.

Acts 20:21 models after the similar usage in various other places such as in John 3, Acts 16:31, John 6:40,47 , John 7:39, John 1:12 -
Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life;
Does "believing in the Son" simply refer to believing the above 3 points or does it have any special significance by itself, which is based and built upon the above 3 points?

 

[ivdavid]

Because I think both are the same,if Im wrong please correct me by explaining the difference......

I thought I already did that -
ivdavid - "The security provided by God is not the securing you against missing out on the kingdom of God as such[OSAS] but rather the securing you against falling from faith in Jesus Christ[eternal security] - in turn, sanctifying you unto eternal life in His kingdom."
OSAS takes a single event of you professing to repent or believe and then holds nothing more as the basis of your salvation. Eternal Security makes no such claims on any such single event. It says that you must continue to repent and continue to believe in Christ, but provides security for you saying that Christ will preserve you in such sanctification and faith. Grace for grace. Now, you will know a tree by its fruit - if a man believes in Christ, such faith will be evidenced by God's working in him and such faith is itself the evidence of God working in him. And conversely, if there is no such evidential working of God in him, then such a man never believed in Christ for his justification and was never regenerated in Christ.

Let me just put it like this,Christ will never leave you,but you can leave Him

I agree to both clauses. But what we're discussing here is if Christ would let us leave Him - given that we never came to Him by ourselves in the first place and that it was He who drew us to Him by regenerating us.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Let me just put it like this,Christ will never leave you,but you can leave Him

If that is True, then Paul wrote a lie under the inspiriation of the Holy Spirit which states 2 Thess 3:3

3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

As stated, departing from God is evil Heb 3:12

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

 

[ivdavid]

I object. The context of Romans 14 is not about people doubting 'faith in Christ' itself, but people having 'weak faith' like the SDA who consider eating vegetables and a day special.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough. I was not referring to what their faith was concerning - merely to what faith itself meant. I wasn't referring to "faith in Christ" or "faith in special days" etc. at all - I was specifically only referring to what faith itself is - as contextually seen in v.5 -
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

So, would you now have any objections to me referring to faith as "being fully persuaded in one's mind regarding the truth of something" ? If not, you could continue through the remaining points too....

And concerning the Hebrews passage, I'm assuming it's an independent point made and that it wasn't in response to any specific point I raised in my earlier post - because I didn't see any direct connection with what I'd written on semantics and logic.
Anyway, Heb 6 to me is stating a truth - a truth that is to humble us and reveal the glory of God in preserving us. It describes the possibility of man falling away from the faith and the hopelessness of such a situation. I've never denied the possibility of man falling away - in fact, as I've said before, that's how I could believe in eternal security - for if there was no possibility of man falling away, what then is he to be secured against - and then eternal security itself would become meaningless. So, I do hold the possibility of man's falling away And I believe in the glory and grace of God to secure and preserve His people from doing so.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

so according to you( I HATE THIS AD HOMINEIMS BTW) I CAN SIN ALL I WANT AND STILL GET TO HEAVEN?....

OF COURSE SINNERS can go to heaven!!! But a sincerely born again Christian will HATE SINNING and DETEST sinning, but of course they will continue to sin because we are sinners!!!

Has nobody ever explain the gospel of grace to you? Jesus died for us whilst we were still sinners. Have you never read those verses?

Now answer me these questions:

1. Do you continue to sin? Yes or No? If yes, then do you believe you cannot enter heaven until you STOP SINNING? Yes or No?

2. Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to be saved and have eternal security? Yes or No?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

The question is wrong. Your question has nothing to do with eternal security.

Let me rephrase your question.
Is it POSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to fall away to lose salvation? Answer: Yes

Don't tell me my question is wrong just because you don't like my question and just because you cannot answer my question. The reason you refuse to answer my question is because you know your answer will CONTRADICT your previous comments!

Now stop trembling in fear of the truth and stop being scared off my question. Give me a direct and honest answer please:

Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to be saved and have eternal security? Yes or No?

Secondly, you CONTRADICTED BIBLE AND JESUS!!! The Bible says that anyone who comes to Christ has ETERNAL LIFE and eternal life means ETERNAL LIFE, not temporary life they can lose at a later date! Thirdly, Jesus said NOBODY can snatch them out of his hands and they shall never PERISH!!!

You contradict Bible and Jesus!!!