Eternal Security of the Believer !

[TruthSeeker2012]

For those who believe in osas,what's your answer to the above question?

If a person is sincerely saved and truly born again of the Holy Spirit, they would never ever turn their backs on Jesus. They are one saved and will always be saved because once Jesus comes into your heart you will never want to turn your back on Jesus.

Critics of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine claim that it gives Christians a license to sin. They presume that those who believe in eternal security intend to accept salvation, and then continue to willingly sin and not care and cherish sinning. But this is inaccurate, because anyone who has been truly saved is a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17), has the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 1 Thessalonians 4:8), and now wants to live for Christ.

Someone who continues to willingly and blatantly live in sin and doesn't care about it, has not truly accepted Christ (1 John 2:19; 1 John 3:6; James 1:26).

A person who willingly, sincerely, genuinely, humbly, repents of sin and turns towards the cross, trusting Christ as their Savior, will be saved (Acts 16:31; John 6:37; John 14:6). That salvation is once and for all, eternal, and secure. Those who truly trust in Christ and continue to trust in Christ are saved once, and saved always.

If a person becomes a Satan worshipper or says they now reject Jesus, they were never born again Christian in the first place, even if they claim to have been!

 

[jasoncran]

OF COURSE SINNERS can go to heaven!!! But a sincerely born again Christian will HATE SINNING and DETEST sinning, but of course they will continue to sin because we are sinners!!!

Has nobody ever explain the gospel of grace to you? Jesus died for us whilst we were still sinners. Have you never read those verses?

Now answer me these questions:

1. Do you continue to sin? Yes or No? If yes, then do you believe you cannot enter heaven until you STOP SINNING? Yes or No?

2. Is it IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian who has faith in Jesus to be saved and have eternal security? Yes or No?

dude i have commited homosexual acts while claiming christ, you neednt tell me much, and if i didnt stop , i would have walked away and denied the lord that healed me.

so peter lied when he said this? for they denied the lord that bought them.. and swift destruction. is being a false prophet a sin the god will just say. well you turned others away from me, but i see you got saved at 15 but died at 80, became a false teacher at 30.

will such a man enter into heaven. never did i say perfection was the key, again you assume. i said if one can knowingly and willingly deny the lord and also become so rebellious and love sin over God, then theres a good chance hell will be your home.

would a unrepentant murder,. liar ever make it to heaven? i am not talking if they do it and then repent, i am talking about with such malice and willfullness they longer care.

if it wasnt possible,then explain the verses felix and i posted. and too add for if ye forgive not your enemies neither will the father in heaven forgive you. so if a christian dies with a grudge will he make it to heaven?

 

[jasoncran]

peter disagrees.

2 peter 2:

2 Peter 2



1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

again for if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world..

these persons described by peter KNEW the lord.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

dude i have commited homosexual acts while claiming christ, you neednt tell me much, and if i didnt stop , i would have walked away and denied the lord that healed me.

so peter lied when he said this? for they denied the lord that bought them.. and swift destruction. is being a false prophet a sin the god will just say. well you turned others away from me, but i see you got saved at 15 but died at 80, became a false teacher at 30.

will such a man enter into heaven. never did i say perfection was the key, again you assume. i said if one can knowingly and willingly deny the lord and also become so rebellious and love sin over God, then theres a good chance hell will be your home.

would a unrepentant murder,. liar ever make it to heaven? i am not talking if they do it and then repent, i am talking about with such malice and willfullness they longer care.

if it wasnt possible,then explain the verses felix and i posted. and too add for if ye forgive not your enemies neither will the father in heaven forgive you. so if a christian dies with a grudge will he make it to heaven?

Good luck and best wishes in your attempts to please God and win God's favor and salvation through your "good works" and human effort. Good luck, you will need it.

 

[felix]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough. I was not referring to what their faith was concerning - merely to what faith itself meant. I wasn't referring to "faith in Christ" or "faith in special days" etc. at all - I was specifically only referring to what faith itself is - as contextually seen in v.5 -
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

So, would you now have any objections to me referring to faith as "being fully persuaded in one's mind regarding the truth of something" ? If not, you could continue through the remaining points too....

There is no other faith but only 'faith in Christ'. Anything that is not from this faith is sin. Hebrew 14 is not referring to doubting faith itself which is faith in Christ but discussing about having weak faith in Christ. People who are weak faith in Christ do not deny Christ, just like the SDA who put their additional faith in a day and eating vegies.

"truth of something"? Jesus Christ is the 'Truth' (John 14:6). Anything that is not in Him is a lie.

And concerning the Hebrews passage, I'm assuming it's an independent point made and that it wasn't in response to any specific point I raised in my earlier post - because I didn't see any direct connection with what I'd written on semantics and logic.
Anyway, Heb 6 to me is stating a truth - a truth that is to humble us and reveal the glory of God in preserving us. It describes the possibility of man falling away from the faith and the hopelessness of such a situation. I've never denied the possibility of man falling away - in fact, as I've said before, that's how I could believe in eternal security - for if there was no possibility of man falling away, what then is he to be secured against - and then eternal security itself would become meaningless. So, I do hold the possibility of man's falling away And I believe in the glory and grace of God to secure and preserve His people from doing so.

(John 10:27-18) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Anyone who does not follow Christ is not His sheep.

I think the disagreement comes because of denominational difference. Some believe 'saved' as 'Sanctification of the Holy Spirit' and some believe 'saved' as 'Salvation' itself. I do not deny if a person have faith in Christ, then sins, God will help him come out of that sin. But it still depends on that person because he need to hear His voice because he has a free will to deny/accept Christ. I am not speaking about this 'falling away' in sin temporarily and coming back to Christ. I am speaking about a person who was a Christian but later rejected God by not believing in Him (or) inspite of knowing God (as in Romans 1) refusing to hear the voice of God and not walking in His path by continuing in sin.

If a person genuinely doubts and seeks the real truth, God will help out (e.g., Thomas). If a person knows God, yet denies Him by not believing in Him, God will condemn him (e.g, Judas).

It is true we have eternal life secured in Christ. But we will inherit what is secured only when we believe and have faith in Christ. There is no other way one can secure eternal life.

(1John 5:11-13) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may [continue to] believe in the name of the Son of God.

 

[jasoncran]

Good luck and best wishes in your attempts to please God and win God's favor and salvation through your "good works" and human effort. Good luck, you will need it.

oh please. come now.its like this. you assume and wrongly that we have no will to come to the lord and to reject even when we come to him.

i find it ironically when calvanists are attacked for that thinking of theirs by the likes of you. they are at least constistent in that God doesnt save all, only some and those saved cant be lost as God overides their will.

i hope you learn what actual arminism says.

you can just say that a person can get saved, be holy and sin a bunch and never repents(note struggle to repent but willfully wants to sin and doesnt care anymore) and God just goes well i will overlook that.

those persons there KNEW christ and turned on him. its possible to do that . i in fact never said that ones salvation is based on works YOU did.

i said its possible to loose it. we can divorce God, plain and simple.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

oh please. come now.its like this. you assume and wrongly that we have no will to come to the lord and to reject even when we come to him.

i find it ironically when calvanists are attacked for that thinking of theirs by the likes of you. they are at least constistent in that God doesnt save all, only some and those saved cant be lost as God overides their will.

i hope you learn what actual arminism says.

you can just say that a person can get saved, be holy and sin a bunch and never repents(note struggle to repent but willfully wants to sin and doesnt care anymore) and God just goes well i will overlook that.

those persons there KNEW christ and turned on him. its possible to do that . i in fact never said that ones salvation is based on works YOU did.

i said its possible to loose it. we can divorce God, plain and simple.

Your comments contradict Bible and Jesus!

Firstly you are talking about the lost who were never born again in the first place.

If someone is truly born again, they will never divorce Christ and Jesus said NOBODY can snatch them out of His hands!

And show me where in Bible it says that Jesus KNEW SOMEONE and that they had been BORN AGAIN, yet Jesus ends up rejecting them anyway. Show me in Bible if you can!

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

...I think the disagreement comes because of denominational difference. Some believe 'saved' as 'Sanctification of the Holy Spirit' and some believe 'saved' as 'Salvation' itself. I do not deny if a person have faith in Christ, then sins, God will help him come out of that sin. ..

1. Have you perfectly stopped sinning? YES OR NO?

2. If no, then why not, seeing you said that God will help you come out of that sin?

3. Can a sinner be saved if they continue to sin? YES OR NO?

 

[felix]

1. Have you perfectly stopped sinning? YES OR NO? No

2. If no, then why not, seeing you said that God will help you come out of that sin? Because, I still believe in Christ for salvation and I am convicted of that sin by the Holy Spirit and I repent for my sins.

3. Can a sinner be saved if they continue to sin? YES OR NO? If the sinner is still having faith in Christ and his failure merely to his struggle, then Yes. If the sinner does not have faith in Christ anymore and/or no spiritual fruits are found, then No.

My answers in red

 

[ivdavid]

Nearly missed this post of yours....

There is no other faith but only 'faith in Christ'.

People who are weak faith in Christ do not deny Christ, just like the SDA who put their additional faith in a day and eating vegies.

Clearly, you've made up your mind on what you think I'm saying - and unfortunately that's not what I'm actually saying. We'll have to try this another way -
In your above usage of the word "faith" in the phrase "faith in Christ" and in the phrase "additional faith in a day" - could you tell me how you would define that word "faith"? Try and define it in as simple English as possible. And just so you know, Heb 11:1 is not exactly a definition of faith as most think(and I myself thought) - it describes what an important role faith plays in our lives - but what do I mean by that word "faith" - that's the question.

But it still depends on that person because he need to hear His voice because he has a free will to deny/accept Christ.

I don't agree to this because it puts us back under the law of works and apart from grace.

But we will inherit what is secured only when we believe and have faith in Christ.

And I'm here saying that our faith in Christ itself is what is being secured. Without faith, no inheritance - I think we both agree to this. But how do we believe and continue to believe - is it by our own correct acts of choice or by God's grace in preserving us - I think we'd differ here. And what exactly do you believe when you say you believe in Christ?

Do you believe in the regeneration of man and if so, what do you think happens then and why do you think man requires it?

 

[jasoncran]

Your comments contradict Bible and Jesus!

Firstly you are talking about the lost who were never born again in the first place.

If someone is truly born again, they will never divorce Christ and Jesus said NOBODY can snatch them out of His hands!

And show me where in Bible it says that Jesus KNEW SOMEONE and that they had been BORN AGAIN, yet Jesus ends up rejecting them anyway. Show me in Bible if you can!

peter says that for you, yet in your bias you cant see it!

2 peter 2

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even DENYING the Lord that BOUGHT them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning

HAVE you escaped the pollutions of the word, do you still love sin over God and dont care about sinning at all? if you answered yes to that you have escaped the pollutions of the word. then you have made my case

and paul said this

in one corithinians

22For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
23Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men

those men whom peter prophecies would come arent ones that are sinners but ones willingly do that and know the truth! its clear as well red.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Its denying the Gospel of Substitution !


To teach or believe that any sinner for whom Christ died, shall be lost or can be lost, is a flat out and blatant denial and repudiation of the Gospel Truth of substitution, that Christ died in the stead of Chosen sinners ! Now either Christ bore the full extent of God's wrath for those He died for, dying for every last one of their iniquities, to include unbelief, and God has been completely satisfied with Justice for those persons, in Christ death, or He has not. The persons faith or repentance has nothing to with it ! Matt 20:28

28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

This little word for is key to understanding the doctrine of substitution, for it is the greek preposition anti:


over against, opposite to, before

2) for, instead of, in place of (something)

a) instead of

Christ gave His Life, His Soul a ransom to God's Justice, instead of or in the place of the many for whom He died !

Now, based on that Fact, if they are not Eternally Secure, then its a denial and repudiation of Christ Substitutionary and atoning death ! Which is a Gospel Truth !

 

[francisdesales]

Its denying the Gospel of Substitution !


To teach or believe that any sinner for whom Christ died, shall be lost or can be lost, is a flat out and blatant denial and repudiation of the Gospel Truth of substitution, that Christ died in the stead of Chosen sinners !

This is a flat out and blatant denial that Christ died for ALL sinners, not just "chosen sinners". Scriptures clearly state that Christ died for the sin of the WORLD, all men. And for the hundredth time, Christ's work was NOT of less value than Adam's universal act that condemns ALL men. Christ's work redeems all men, He died for the sin of the world, all men, not just "chosen sinners"

Now either Christ bore the full extent of God's wrath for those He died for, dying for every last one of their iniquities, to include unbelief, and God has been completely satisfied with Justice for those persons, in Christ death, or He has not. The persons faith or repentance has nothing to with it ! Matt 20:28

You are confusing redemption with salvation to eternal life...

Regards

 

[reba]

This is a flat out and blatant denial that Christ died for ALL sinners, not just "chosen sinners". Scriptures clearly state that Christ died for the sin of the WORLD, all men. And for the hundredth time, Christ's work was NOT of less value than Adam's universal act that condemns ALL men. Christ's work redeems all men, He died for the sin of the world, all men, not just "chosen sinners"

francisdesales, This topic is one i bounce back and forth on....

I can agree with most of what you say above.... BUT

Are all men redeemed? I say no

This view(IMO) makes Christs work invalid. If He died for all and all arn't saved He failed.
I dont view Christ as a failure and i know you dont so how would i reconcile this?

 

[francisdesales]

francisdesales, This topic is one i bounce back and forth on....

I can agree with most of what you say above.... BUT

Are all men redeemed? I say no

This view(IMO) makes Christs work invalid. If He died for all and all arn't saved He failed.
I dont view Christ as a failure and i know you dont so how would i reconcile this?

I think we define "redeem" differently. Scriptures says all men have been redeemed, not just a few select. Mankind as an entity, as one, since Christ became the Second Adam. Just as the first Adam condemned mankind in general, the Second Adam redeemed mankind as a whole. To say otherwise is to call the Second Adam's work inferior and less encompassing.

Individually, though, this does not mean everyone is going to heaven - as salvation and sanctification are applied at the individual level.

Regards

 

[felix]

Clearly, you've made up your mind on what you think I'm saying - and unfortunately that's not what I'm actually saying. We'll have to try this another way -
In your above usage of the word "faith" in the phrase "faith in Christ" and in the phrase "additional faith in a day" - could you tell me how you would define that word "faith"? Try and define it in as simple English as possible. And just so you know, Heb 11:1 is not exactly a definition of faith as most think(and I myself thought) - it describes what an important role faith plays in our lives - but what do I mean by that word "faith" - that's the question.

(Heb 11:1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
~ Bible

• confidence or trust in a person or thing
• belief that is not based on proof

~ dictionary.com

I think they mean the same.

But it still depends on that person because he need to hear His voice because he has a free will to deny/accept Christ.

I don't agree to this because it puts us back under the law of works and apart from grace.

Is believing in Jesus Christ and/or accepting Him work of the law?

And I'm here saying that our faith in Christ itself is what is being secured.

I haven't read anywhere in scripture about faith in Christ itself being secured.

Without faith, no inheritance - I think we both agree to this. But how do we believe and continue to believe - is it by our own correct acts of choice or by God's grace in preserving us - I think we'd differ here. And what exactly do you believe when you say you believe in Christ?

How many acts of choice does it require for someone to believe? Are you saying if some one toggles between believing God and then denying God and again believing God and then denying again will some how enter heaven?

Do you believe in the regeneration of man and if so, what do you think happens then and why do you think man requires it?

'regeneration of man' is for someone who believes in Christ. Is there a regeneration for a former believer who now denies Christ entirely?

 

[reba]

I think we define "redeem" differently. Scriptures says all men have been redeemed, not just a few select. Mankind as an entity, as one, since Christ became the Second Adam. Just as the first Adam condemned mankind in general, the Second Adam redeemed mankind as a whole. To say otherwise is to call the Second Adam's work inferior and less encompassing.

Individually, though, this does not mean everyone is going to heaven - as salvation and sanctification are applied at the individual level.

Regards

Thanks i tend to lump those terms into a single bundle

 

[ivdavid]

[Faith is the] belief that is not based on proof

This is quite different from saying that faith is the very evidential grounds on which one can be sure of things that are yet to happen or have happened already. Wouldn't you say?

Anyway, that's precisely my point - faith is simply the act of believing and to believe a premise is to be fully persuaded of the truth of that premise. Do you see that I was merely trying to define faith there? Do you still have any problems with that?

Is believing in Jesus Christ and/or accepting Him work of the law?

If you say that such faith in Christ is dependent on 'freewill' - then it is putting us under the law of works.

I haven't read anywhere in scripture about faith in Christ itself being secured.

I got that from pretty much the entire Bible as seen in the purpose of Christ's death and resurrection but specifically, I'd refer to Heb 12:2.

How many acts of choice does it require for someone to believe? Are you saying if some one toggles between believing God and then denying God and again believing God and then denying again will some how enter heaven?

Where did this come from? What part of what I'd written led to this question?
I'm saying it's not dependent on man's will at all but wholly dependent on God's mercy by which He shall preserve the faith of all His people.

'regeneration of man' is for someone who believes in Christ. Is there a regeneration for a former believer who now denies Christ entirely?

What do you mean by regeneration first? And shouldn't one first be regenerated to be able to believe in Christ?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

1. Have you perfectly stopped sinning? YES OR NO? No
My answers in red

Felix, you just openly admitted that you continue to sin!!! That means you admit that you violate and break God's Law and 10 Commandments continuously!

So you have not obviously repented of all your sins, seeing you admit you still SIN and sinning means you commit LAWLESSNESS, 1 John 3:4.

So when do you think you will STOP committing LAWLESSNESS and stop sinning and repent of all your sins?

And do you believe you are saved today seeing you continue to sin and commit LAWLESSNESS and have not yet repented of all your sins? Yes or No?

Can a sinner continue to sin as you are doing and still be saved? Yes or No?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

...HAVE you escaped the pollutions of the word, do you still love sin over God and dont care about sinning at all? ..

I actually hate sin, in fact I detest sin. And I love the Law, the Law is good and just and Holy.

So now I answered your question, please be fair and answer my question:

Do you believe it's impossible for a sincerely born again Christian to have eternal security? Yes or No?