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Eternal Security of the Believer !

savedbygrace57 said:
bass



Hope and Faith are the same, I have showed you that, but you choose to ignore it, so be it !
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No, hope and faith are not the same and you have not shown that they are. One can have hope of some thing but not have faith in Christ.

1 Pet 1:21 "Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God." Why did Peter mention faith and hope separately if they are the same thing?
 
Hello iLove,

your comment - The moment you become saved, your spirit is sealed to preserve your righteousness and to prevent sin from ever entering in (Ephesians 1:13). If you do sin after you become born again, your spirit cannot participate, because it has been perfected in righteousness forever by the Holy Ghost. - is an urban myth which is quite common in some Christian circles.

However 2Cor 7:1 refutes this idea:
Therefore, dear friends, since we have such promises, let us cleanse ourselves from every impurity of the flesh and spirit, completing our •sanctification in the •fear of God. HCSB

Please take note of the context - this is addressed to Christians. The NKJV says cleanse yourselves of all filthiness of the spirit - so when Christians sin their spirit can be involved in the sin. The word cleanse gives the idea of a stain on something that was clean.

Hope this is of some assistance for you.
 
Hello sbg57,

with regards to your comment - Hope and Faith are the same, I have showed you that, but you choose to ignore it, so be it ! -
1Cor13;3 is a simple straightforward easy to understand verse which refutes your comment.

1Cor13:3 Now these three remain:faith, hope,  and love.But the greatest of these is love.

A couple of points to note -
1. three different things are mentioned here - faith, hope & love.
2. so if faith & hope are the same we could read this as faith, faith & love or hope, hope & love - which is just plain silly.

I do not believe a Christian could read their Bible & come to the conclusion that faith & hope are the same.
Are you obtaining your view from a book you have read?
If so could you please name the book & author for the forum members benefit?

thanking you in advance - saltwater.
 
salt

with regards to your comment - Hope and Faith are the same, I have
showed you that, but you choose to ignore it, so be it ! -
Click to expand...

They are the same Hope expects what Faith believes ! Hope is in the very definition of Faith Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
eb



They are see post 345
Click to expand...
and see my post 330.

If faith and hope mean the same thing, explain why Paul wrote: "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1 Cor. 13:13)
It says these three (faith, hope, love). Therefore, faith and hope can't possibly mean the same thing.
 
If faith and hope mean the same thing, explain why Paul wrote: "And now abide
faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." (1
Cor. 13:13
)
Click to expand...

I do not need to explain that, I already have explained why ! See post 345 and 324
 
Shall not listen to stranger !


We know that the Sheep of Christ who have heard the voice of their Shepherd, and are presently believers and followers, we know that it is impossible for them to apostatize into false teaching again, simply because of Jesus words concerning them here Jn 10:4-5

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

This is a promise that Christ's Sheep will not listen to the voice of a stranger, meaning a false teacher, also Jesus indicates the same, and that now as believers its impossible for them to be deceived Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect or Sheep

And John writes that they shall abide in the Truth 1 Jn 2:26-27

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The word shall is a Divine Promise !

In the greek it reads ye shall be remaining in Him !

All true believers will abide or will not depart from the Truth ! They are incapable of being deceived from it, and yes if any do depart from the Truth or the faith ,it only means they were never of Christ's Sheep to begin with 1 Jn 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

That word continued is the same greek word rendered abide in 1 Jn 2:27, as in ye shall abide in Him ! So the ones leaving from out from among God's People in Vs 19 only show they did not belong to Christ's Sheep !
 
iLOVE said:
The moment you become saved, your spirit is sealed to preserve your righteousness and to prevent sin from ever entering in (Ephesians 1:13). If you do sin after you become born again, your spirit cannot participate, because it has been perfected in righteousness forever by the Holy Ghost.

But you must renew your mind. Your soul, or your mind, still contains sin residue from your old nature, the one you had before you got saved. Your way of thinking was trained by your former self. The first thing a person should do after becoming born again is renew his or her mind. This is an ongoing process—one that must be done daily by meditating upon the Word of God! It is also how you effectively put on the new man, which the Bible talks about in Ephesians 4:23, 24: “And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

Just think, you possess the divine nature of God! As a Christian, you have 100% God DNA in you! This is not saying you are God. However, when you receive Christ, you receive God’s very own DNA into your spirit. Therefore, you are a partaker of His fullness. And as a new creature in Christ Jesus, God unites Himself with your spirit. First Corinthians 6:17 tells us, “But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.” How wonderful that is! The instant you become born again, your spirit man and God become one!
Click to expand...

You must have a daily intermit personal relationship with The Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Eternal Security !


Eternal Security of every True believer is seen here Rom 8:30

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Without doubt this ensures they never fall away to perdition !
 
A True Believer is secured in the Faith because of their New Birth Principle and inward Sanctification Jer 31:33

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law / gospel in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And this means they cannot sin, cannot apostatize, the seed of immortal life remains in them 1 Jn 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes, the scripture does speak of some who depart from the Faith, but guess what, that merely means they were not born of God or saved in the first place 1 Jn 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The word continued here is the same word John uses in 1 Jn 3:9 for the word remaineth 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

However those who Truly know the Truth from that inward principle given in the New Birth, that Truth shall be in us and with us forever 2 Jn 1:1-2

1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

This
 
Jn 4:14

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Eternal Security is taught here by the Saviour. The believer here has created IN HIM a well of water, that will always quench a spiritual thirst, that culminates in Everlasting Life !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
I do not need to explain that, I already have explained why ! See post 345 and 324
Click to expand...

Actually hope and faith are not the same but they come from the same source so are therefore almost identical. Faith is the substance that is the tangible outcome of things hoped for. Think of love hope and faith as a rope entwined together and united as one to the extent it is all but impossible to separate them. Hope gives us the strength to believe that which we have not yet received, faith is the fulfillment of that hope and it provides us with a new hope and reassurance that our hope is not in vain. Once we have received what we have been hoping for it is our faith that is built up and our hope is greater than before and our faith also is built up greater because of what we have now believed and received. To have faith without hope is impossible just as to have hope without faith is impossible. No they are not the same but neither you or me can separate them such is how similar they are but He who can divide between the spirit and the soul can isolate each yet we can be content that He has given us both.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
A True Believer is secured in the Faith because of their New Birth Principle and inward Sanctification Jer 31:33

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law / gospel in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And this means they cannot sin, cannot apostatize, the seed of immortal life remains in them 1 Jn 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes, the scripture does speak of some who depart from the Faith, but guess what, that merely means they were not born of God or saved in the first place 1 Jn 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The word continued here is the same word John uses in 1 Jn 3:9 for the word remaineth 1 Jn 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

However those who Truly know the Truth from that inward principle given in the New Birth, that Truth shall be in us and with us forever 2 Jn 1:1-2

1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

This
Click to expand...


Jer 31:33 a covenant is not an unconditional gift. In a covenant both sides have an obligation. Jesus states in Jn 15: 6 that we must remain in Him. In addition to Jn 15: 6 there is Gal 5 : 2-4 and Heb 6: 4 – 6 reaffirm that continuing belief in Jesus is a condition of the covenant. The verse in John we must remain in Him, we do this by continuing to believe in Him. In the Galatians verse if we stop believing in Jesus and put our trust in the law we lose salvation. The entire book of Hebrews the writer is trying to stop believing Jews from returning to animal sacrifice for their sins. Continual belief in Jesus is a requirement under the covenant.







1Jn 3: 9 we have to under stand what John is saying. 1 Jn 1:8-9 John states that if we say we are without sin we lie. 1Jn 2: 1 when we sin Jesus speaks for us and 1Jn 5:16-17 when we see a brother sin we are to pray for him. John clearly does not mean that we cannot sin. When I compare versions a clear majority read that one born of God cannot continue, practice or habitually sin. That puts it into perspective. By Ro 8: 10 if we have the Spirit of Jesus our body is dead because of sin. Ro 8: 11 our body will be given life by the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus (the Father Gal 1:1 ) if He is in us. Jn 14 : 23 if we obey Jesus the father is in us. Clearly we cannot habitually sin because God calls those who do so to heaven.







In 1Jn 5 16-17 John speaks of us praying for a brother and God will give him life. Since no one gets into heaven by another persons prayers he must be speaking of temporal life. But there is a sin into death that a brother can commit. This cannot be temporal death because all sin results in temporal death. There is only one sin that leads to eternal death that God will not give them life if they commit. Because God will not forgive someone that has trampled the Son of God under his foot if they refuse to repent. Clearly we can lose salvation by committing a sin unto death.




2Jn 1-2 To the chosen lady means that John is writing the letter to the elect bride of Christ. The elect are those that God foreknew. What is said to the elect does not apply to people who are non elect. To be elect you must have obeyed the covenant and remained in Jesus.




Jn 4:13 everyone who drinks of the water then living water will flow. Jn 7: 37 states who ever believes in Me living living water will flow from him. 1 Cor 12 :13 we were given one spirit to drink. In Jn 4:13 and Jn 7:37 Jesus is talking about His Spirit as being living water. Eph5: 18 we are instructed to be filled with the Spirit. We have control of how deep the well will become or if it will dry up. Eph 4: 30 we can grieve the spirit and there by causing it not to spring up and flow. Heb 10:29 speaks of insulting the Spirit of grace which dries up the well. Those that insult the Spirit of grace fearfully await judgment and raging fire.
 
iLOVE said:
The moment you become saved, your spirit is sealed to preserve your righteousness and to prevent sin from ever entering in (Ephesians 1:13). If you do sin after you become born again, your spirit cannot participate, because it has been perfected in righteousness forever by the Holy Ghost.

But you must renew your mind. Your soul, or your mind, still contains sin residue from your old nature, the one you had before you got saved. Your way of thinking was trained by your former self. The first thing a person should do after becoming born again is renew his or her mind. This is an ongoing process—one that must be done daily by meditating upon the Word of God! It is also how you effectively put on the new man, which the Bible talks about in Ephesians 4:23, 24: “And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.â€

Just think, you possess the divine nature of God! As a Christian, you have 100% God DNA in you! This is not saying you are God. However, when you receive Christ, you receive God’s very own DNA into your spirit. Therefore, you are a partaker of His fullness. And as a new creature in Christ Jesus, God unites Himself with your spirit. First Corinthians 6:17 tells us, “But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.†How wonderful that is! The instant you become born again, your spirit man and God become one!
Click to expand...


Where did you get this idea? Ephesians 1 doesn't say "the moment" about anything, it simply states that they were sealed with the Spirit "AFTER"
they believed, not a the moment they believed. Additionally, what you said about the Spirit not participating in sin is what is called "Dualism" and it has its roots in Gnosticism, not Christianity. Gnosticism taught that the only the flesh could sin and that the spirit could not. These are the same people who said that Jesus didn't come in the flesh because they believed that the flesh was inherently evil and the Christ being pure could not dwell in an evil flesh body. It was these Gnostics that the apostles John called "antichrist."

7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (2Jo 1:7 KJV)

John said, 'if we say we have no sin we are a liar and the truth is not in us.' He said that because the Gnostics taught that the spirit could not sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1Jo 1:8 KJV)


I would reconsider that idea about the spirit, it's not what the apostles taught.
 
Can Jesus loose what He found ?

If one Christ saved, having apprehended that one as per Phil 3:12

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

The word apprehended is the greek word katalambanō:


to lay hold of, find

a) to lay hold of so as to make one's own, to obtain, attain to, to make one's own, to take into one's self, appropriate

For that one He did apprehend to become lost again means He lost what He had or apprehended, that is His fault.

For Christ as the Shepherd of the Sheep He finds or apprehends is responsible for them. Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now once the Shepherd finds the Lost Sheep as here Lk 15:5

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Laying it upon His Shoulders denoting His Strength and protection of the found Sheep, also acknowledging the weakness of the sheep, it also denotes His Responsibility for the Sheep now to be under His Care and Protection.

In light of this Jesus speaks of the Security of the found Sheep Jn 10:27-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus here speaking as the Good Shepherd of the Sheep, ensures the Security of the Sheep and says they are safe in His Hands, and they cannot be plucked out of His Hands !

This promise goes back to Jn 10:4-5

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Can Jesus loose what He found ?

If one Christ saved, having apprehended that one as per Phil 3:12

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

The word apprehended is the greek word katalambanō:


to lay hold of, find

a) to lay hold of so as to make one's own, to obtain, attain to, to make one's own, to take into one's self, appropriate

For that one He did apprehend to become lost again means He lost what He had or apprehended, that is His fault.

For Christ as the Shepherd of the Sheep He finds or apprehends is responsible for them. Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now once the Shepherd finds the Lost Sheep as here Lk 15:5

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Laying it upon His Shoulders denoting His Strength and protection of the found Sheep, also acknowledging the weakness of the sheep, it also denotes His Responsibility for the Sheep now to be under His Care and Protection.

In light of this Jesus speaks of the Security of the found Sheep Jn 10:27-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus here speaking as the Good Shepherd of the Sheep, ensures the Security of the Sheep and says they are safe in His Hands, and they cannot be plucked out of His Hands !

This promise goes back to Jn 10:4-5

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Click to expand...



Phil 3:12 Jesus took hold of Paul on the Damascus road. Acts 9: 1-6. It sounds like Saul wasn't given to much leeway in the matter. He was told what he “must doâ€. Coming from God it doesn't sound like Paul had much of an option. Paul certainly was apprehended. If anyone else can claim a similar salvation experience then maybe they could claim osas even though Paul did not.




We are not like Paul. Jn 12:32. We are drawn not apprehended. By the verb we were are not given any choice to resist the drawing, but we have a choice to say Yes or No in accepting the offer.




Lk 19: 10 and Lk 15: 5 Jesus is responsible for us to an extent. We are sheep but real sheep operate by instinct. We still have free will. God exercises His responsibilty by discliping us. He does not take us by the hand and drag us along. (Jn 10: 28 - 29 , James 1 : 13 - 14) He does protect us from someone rustling His sheep from the pen or luring His sheep out . But He does not prevent us from opening the gate and walking away if we tempt ourselves. We had free will before coming to Jesus and we have free will after coming to Jesus. How much glory would it bring God if He held us against our will if we come to the conclusion that we made a mistake in trusting in Him? He does everything short of forcing us to stay with Him. Ro 11: 22 we would not be told to continue or be cut off if we have no choice. We would not be told we could fall from grace ( Gal 5 : 2 – 4) if we have no free will.




Jn 10: 27-29 a person can only be plucked from an outside force. In plucking 2 things are needed. An item to be plucked and a plucker. The item plucked can only be plucked to the place that the plucker is located. Jesus is saying that no external force can remove them from my hand. This does not preclude one from removing themselves. He gives those eternal life that stay in the pen.




Jn 10:4-5 God calls us His sheep. As said above sheep are driven by instincts. Their instincts tell them to follow what they have been trained to follow. Again God does not take away our free will when we confess Him as our Lord and savior.We follow His voice as long as we believe in Him. If we have lost our faith in Him we can quit following.
 
Can Jesus loose what He found ? Pt 2

Jesus here speaking as the Good Shepherd of the Sheep, ensures the Security of the Sheep and says they are safe in His Hands, and they cannot be plucked out of His Hands !

Jn 10:27-30 !

But many doubters and unbelievers say, yes, but it never says that the Sheep cannot of themselves just leave out of the hand of the Shepherd; But such carnal reasoning puts even more blameworthiness and carelessness upon the Shepherd that finds the lost Sheep; You see it matters not how the Sheep comes from out of the protection and safety of the Shepherd, that does not render the Shepherd any less responsible for a Sheep who wanders away from safety than if He was overpowered and the Sheep was taken out of His Protection, either way the Shepherd failed His Trust ! If you or i leave our children to the care of a baby sitter,only to come back home later to find out that one of the children they were to be watching over and caring for was now missing from the home, who should bare the blame ? Yes, if one of the Sheep wanders away or somehow leaves from the protection and safety of the Shepard, He would be guilty of loosing one that the Father gave Him Jn 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And the Sheep are what the Father gave Him Jn 10:29

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

So those who insist that a believing Sheep of Christ can once again be lost and consequently perish forever, they are blaming serious failure on the Shepherd. God blames the Shepherds when the sheep go astray Jer 50:6

My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. Christ is the Chief Shepard 1 Pet 5:4

And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

There is no other conclusion but that He failed as their Shepherd if any of those Sheep His Father gave Him is Lost ! If we teach this, we teach against Christ !
 
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