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Eternal Security of the Believer !

savedbygrace57 said:
Can Jesus loose what He found ? Pt 2

Jesus here speaking as the Good Shepherd of the Sheep, ensures the Security of the Sheep and says they are safe in His Hands, and they cannot be plucked out of His Hands !

Jn 10:27-30 !

But many doubters and unbelievers say, yes, but it never says that the Sheep cannot of themselves just leave out of the hand of the Shepherd; But such carnal reasoning puts even more blameworthiness and carelessness upon the Shepherd that finds the lost Sheep; You see it matters not how the Sheep comes from out of the protection and safety of the Shepherd, that does not render the Shepherd any less responsible for a Sheep who wanders away from safety than if He was overpowered and the Sheep was taken out of His Protection, either way the Shepherd failed His Trust ! If you or i leave our children to the care of a baby sitter,only to come back home later to find out that one of the children they were to be watching over and caring for was now missing from the home, who should bare the blame ? Yes, if one of the Sheep wanders away or somehow leaves from the protection and safety of the Shepard, He would be guilty of loosing one that the Father gave Him Jn 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And the Sheep are what the Father gave Him Jn 10:29

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

So those who insist that a believing Sheep of Christ can once again be lost and consequently perish forever, they are blaming serious failure on the Shepherd. God blames the Shepherds when the sheep go astray Jer 50:6

My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. Christ is the Chief Shepard 1 Pet 5:4

And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

There is no other conclusion but that He failed as their Shepherd if any of those Sheep His Father gave Him is Lost ! If we teach this, we teach against Christ !
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Jesus never did or could lose one ofthe sheep that the Father gave Him. Jn 6 : 39 and Jn 10: 27 both refer to people given to Jesus by His father. The reason that the father drew people to Jesus was to fulfill the prophecy that the Jews would reject Jesus. Ro 11: 25 God hardened all except those that He gave to Jesus. The reason that He would lose none of those that the Father gave Him was again to fulfill prophecy. Jn 18 : 8-9 Jesus Himself had told the Father that He had lost none that the Father gave Him in verse Jn 6: 39. Ps 41 : 9 was a prophecy that only one friend would betray Him. Therefore; the guarantee that He would raise them applies only to those that the Father gave Him. Jn 12: 32 since Jesus was lifted up Jesus does the drawing. Verse 6:44 stated “no one†could come to Him but now Jesus draws all men to Himself. Therefore verses Jn 6:37- 39 and Jn 10: 27-29 are no longer true because Jesus not the Father draws now. As further proof in Acts 9 : 4-5 who is it drawing Paul?




Jer 50: 6 God is referring to the leaders of His people. That would be the king and priests. 1 Sam 12:19 the people sinned by asking for a king. 1 Sam 8: 7 God was their King (shepherd) when they sinned by asking for a king. If, as you claim, God always blames the shepherd. Then who does He hold accountable for their sin? He absolved Samuel and said that He was their King that was being rejected.




Ps 23: 1 who was Davids shepherd ( 2Sam 11: 1-24) when he committed adultery and murder?




Rev 4: 14-16 who is responsible for the church in Laodicea who were in his mouth (body) but are going to be vomit on the ground (out of His body) ?




If we teach that all shepherds are guilty for the the sins of their flock then we are saying that God sinned.




Jn 15 : 6 clearly shows that one can lose salvation. Jesus states that whoever does not remain in Him will be burned. To not remain in they had to been in Him to begin with.The only way to be in Jesus is to be a true believer.




Gal 5: 1-5 clearly show that Christ can become of no effect for people that try to be justified by the law after confessing Jesus as their Lord and believing in their heart. You cannot fall from grace unless you had it to begin with. If Christ is of no effect to them they cannot use His blood to claim forgiveness. In verse 1 Paul says that “Christ made us free “ so He is talking to true believers such as Himself.




Heb 6: 4-6 is clearly describing a true believer. They were once enlightened meaning they believed the gospel. They partook of the Holy Ghost and tasted the heavenly gift which is the body of Christ. Anyone can partake of the Lords supper but only those that have derived salvation have tasted the gift.Tasting implies receiving the benefits of it ( forgiveness). If they fall away means that one can fall away. When comparing versions most used And instead of if. Some used but instead. If and or but clearly indicate that one can lose salvation.




Heb 4: 14 states that we have a high priest in Jesus and to hold firmly to the faith “we†profess.Clearly the writer was talking to true believers. Heb 10 : 21- 22 another profession of faith. Heb 10 32-34 they had been persecuted for their faith. So the writer is clearly speaking to true believers.




Heb 10: 29 another clear statement that people who are saved can look forward to judgment and fire if they fall away. Treated as unholy the blood that sanctified him and insulted the spirit of grace.
 
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Then according to your view, Jesus failed as the Shepherd of the Sheep, for one of them slipped through His care and became lost again ! The Shepherd is responsible for the sheep remaining with the Shepherd !
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I have not failed to respond to allyour points where as you are unable to address any of my objections to your point of view. None the less.




If God blames the shepherd




Jer 50: 6 God is blaming the Kings and priests for leading His people astray.




1Sam 12:19 the people sinned by asking for a king. 1 Sam 8: 6-9 God was the King that they rejected. He was their shepherd from the time that they came out of Egypt until they sinned by asking for a human king. He absolved Samuel because He said that the people were rejecting Him. God was their shepherd for over 200 years and they did not repent or quit sinning. If we are to believe that God always holds the shepherd accountable then He would have to blame Himself.




Any one that claims the shepherd is always to blame is saying that God is a failure.




Rev 3: 14-16 Jesus is the shepherd of the Church of Loadicea. They were in His body and He will spew themout. The shepherd is Jesus. Jesus says that he will remove them from His body. God cannot lie. If He says that he will spew them out that means that it is possible to be in His body and be expelled and there by losing salvation. Jn 15: 6 If they do not remain in Him they are gathered and thrown into the fire.




Please respond to my points that I made in my last post.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Can Jesus loose what He found ?

If one Christ saved, having apprehended that one as per Phil 3:12

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

The word apprehended is the greek word katalambanō:


to lay hold of, find

a) to lay hold of so as to make one's own, to obtain, attain to, to make one's own, to take into one's self, appropriate

For that one He did apprehend to become lost again means He lost what He had or apprehended, that is His fault.

For Christ as the Shepherd of the Sheep He finds or apprehends is responsible for them. Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Now once the Shepherd finds the Lost Sheep as here Lk 15:5

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Laying it upon His Shoulders denoting His Strength and protection of the found Sheep, also acknowledging the weakness of the sheep, it also denotes His Responsibility for the Sheep now to be under His Care and Protection.

In light of this Jesus speaks of the Security of the found Sheep Jn 10:27-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus here speaking as the Good Shepherd of the Sheep, ensures the Security of the Sheep and says they are safe in His Hands, and they cannot be plucked out of His Hands !

This promise goes back to Jn 10:4-5

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
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Then how did the sheep get lost in the first place?
 
ll

Please respond to my points that I made in my last post
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I have, you are balming the Shepherd Christ with carelessness and failure, for He is responsible for the Sheep after He finds them ! Lk 15:4-5

What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
 
People who support Eternal security never read John 15:2

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;"
 
felix said:
People who support Eternal security never read John 15:2

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;"
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The Shepherd is resonsible for the well being of the Sheep. Anything happens negatively to the Sheep in the custody of the Shepherd, the Shepherd is the Blame ! So if the branceh remains not in the vine, its the vine's fault, because the branceh receives sustenance from the Vine !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Then according to your view, Jesus failed as the Shepherd of the Sheep, for one of them slipped through His care and became lost again ! The Shepherd is responsible for the sheep remaining with the Shepherd !
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He is not responsible for goats. Do you know that sheep and goats know Christ? Yet Christ only know his sheep. Go to a farmer and learn what it means to be a sheep. A sheep will graze on ground, and always remain with the flock and follow the shepherd. A sheep getting lost is always by some accident and never by itself going away. But a goat is different. It is independent and eat leaves on trees. They are enviromment aware and wander by themselves.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
So if the branceh remains not in the vine, its the vine's fault, because the branceh receives sustenance from the Vine !
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The verse says contrary to anything you say. Rememer: These are Christ's Words. Never try to twist them.
 
felix said:
The verse says contrary to anything you say. Rememer: These are Christ's Words. Never try to twist them.
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So if the branch remains not in the vine, its the vine's fault, because the
Branch receives sustenance from the Vine !
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The point does not change, the Vine is still the same one who is the Shepherd, and thBranch'shs are the Sheep. The Shepherd is responsible for the Sheep no matter what. If you say a true branch can be lost , then according to thanalogygy of scripture, a True Sheep can be lost from the Shepherd, so you teach and or believe in the failure of the Shepherd which is Christ ! Very dishonoring to Jesus Christ ! Who is the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Not so great if He cannot keep a sheep safe !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
The point does not change, the Vine is still the same one who is the Shepherd, and thBranch'shs are the Sheep. The Shepherd is responsible for the Sheep no matter what. If you say a true branch can be lost , then according to thanalogygy of scripture, a True Sheep can be lost from the Shepherd, so you teach and or believe in the failure of the Shepherd which is Christ ! Very dishonoring to Jesus Christ ! Who is the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Not so great if He cannot keep a sheep safe !
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When did a branch became a "true" branch? Is there a false branch? Isn't it easy to believe Christ's words as it is in John 15:2?

If you say a true branch can be lost - Sorry, I did not say that but Christ does. Infact it is not lost but thrown away by Him.

First learn what a sheep does. A sheep will never wander on it's own. The very example of "sheep" in the passage disproves eternal security because, if a sheep is lost, it is because of the Shepherd's carelessness as sheep will never wander on it's own.

Also, a sheep will always follow the shepherd.

Do you know what it means to follow Christ?

Luke 9:23 Then He said to [them] all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

If you have something to do daily to follow Him, how can you even say you have any security?

if you have Christ in you, you have eternal life, salvation and all promises. But if you reject Him anytime, so does eternal life, salvation and all promises goes with Him. We have everything in Him. You can't separate Christ from eternal life.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
felix

I am not talking about goats, but Sheep !
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Yes I know. Which is why I explained what a sheep does which doesn't fit eternal security.
A sheep will never wander by itself but always be in the flock and follow the shepherd. If a sheep gets lost, it is the fault of the Shepherd.

Did you know that a sheep will never wander but always follow the shepherd?
Which is why, you have to be a sheep in His flock. And to be a sheep you need to follow Him. As I mentioned above, also in Luke 9:23, it means, taking your cross daily and following Him. You have work to do.. There is no security for anyone. Nor salvation is given to anyone. As said above, if you have Christ in you, you have eternal life, salvation and all promises. But if you reject Him anytime, so does eternal life, salvation and all promises goes with Him. We have everything in Him. You can't separate Christ from eternal life.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
relix



So your point is mute !
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There is a difference between people who are eager to know the truth of Christ and the people who want to deceive others. You never addressed any but playing with words of Christ and twist it deliberately even though you know it is a wrong thing.
 
felix

felix

When did a branch became a "true" branch?
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When Chosen in Chris [The Vine]t before the foundation ! Eph 1:4

If you say a true branch can be lost - Sorry, I did not say
that but Christ does.
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Christ does not say that, you did. Christ would be saying therefore, that A Sheep that He found or saved from a Lost condition could be again lost. That would be the fault of the Shepherd. Who is responsible for the Sheep, the sheep themselves, or their Shepherd ?
 
savedbygrace57 said:
felix

When Chosen in Chris [The Vine]t before the foundation ! Eph 1:4


Christ does not say that, you did. Christ would be saying therefore, that A Sheep that He found or saved from a Lost condition could be again lost. That would be the fault of the Shepherd. Who is responsible for the Sheep, the sheep themselves, or their Shepherd ?
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Which is why I said: There is a difference between people who are eager to know the truth of Christ and the people who want to deceive others. You never addressed any but playing with words of Christ and twist it deliberately even though you know it is a wrong thing.

You need to lay down the foundations of Christ and build over it with Paul's and other's apostles teachings. Please don't lay down Paul's doctrine and twist Christ's teachings to fit it.
 
felix

Which is why I said: There is a difference between people who are eager to
know the truth of Christ and the people who want to deceive others.
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Rabbit trail !
 
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