lovely said:
XTruth,
I would like to say that I studied the frist two verses you posted, Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Tim.2:17-18), Alexander and Hymenaeus (1 Tim.1:19-20), and I am struggling to see a faith that is unto righteousness in these men...they seemed to be hearers, but not doers. Teaching false teachings as the sons of perdition, and going deeper into sin. These men do not show fruit of loving God, or His sons, and those scriptures indicate that they were not overcomers.
1 John 5:1-5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
These verses above to not describe those men you mentioned.
Before I go on, I would like to have a better understanding of how you define a sincere believer's faith, because maybe I am missing something in what it is you are trying to say.
The Lord bless you.
1 Timothy 1:19-20
Example of Hymenaeus and Alexander
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
Lets jump right into this one by seeing what the Bible has to say about those who hold the faith in good conscience to see if it is the least bit possible for these words to be said of unsaved people. Then, we’ll examine if it is at all possible to put away your faith, or to shipwreck it and still be saved. After that, we’ll learn why one would be delivered unto Satan who once possessed saving grace in Christ Jesus. After this, there should be no room for error concerning the doctrine of eternal security.
“Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience (1 Tim.3:9).†“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end (Heb.3:6).†“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end (Heb.3:12-14);†Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief (Heb.4:11).†“Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) (Heb.10:23).â€Â
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb.10:26-29)?†“For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul (Heb.10:36-39).â€Â
These are just a few of the hundreds of verses that say the same thing. Faith is something to be held onto. Billions of people today have faith in millions of different things and ideas, but when someone in Scripture is said to have faith, it always means the faith that is in Christ, which gives the saving grace needed to be free of sin and born again. These two men, Hymenaeus and Alexander had this faith at a point in time and were following in obedience according to the gospel plan. If they were not following faithful for a time, then it would have never been written of them that they had a good conscience.
Receiving the Word, even for a moment, brings the new birth (2 Cor.5:17-18). Read the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:18, Mark 4:13, and Luke 8:11. Hymenaeus and Alexander are either represented by the seed sown in stony ground that endured for a while, but had no root, or the seed that was received in the thorns, but was choked and died by the cares of this world (James 4:4). They each had genuine salvation. That can’t be intelligently rejected by anyone, not even by the most astute theologian who holds the doctrine of eternal security as gospel. They believed and held the faith in good conscience. What could be clearer?
It’s not stated with any detail, but it is apparent that they went astray somewhere. Our only real clues are in Paul’s second letter to Timothy. Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2:17-18 that Hymenaeus erred concerning the truth by saying the resurrection had already happened. Alexander was first mentioned in Acts 19:33 and also wrote about again in 2 Timothy. 2 Timothy 4:14-15 says, “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.â€Â
They’re said to have put away and shipwrecked their faith in 1 Timothy 1:19. ‘Put away’ means to reject, thrust from, and cast away. You can’t wreck your faith if you never had it. You can’t cast something away if you don’t have it in your possession. If one does this, do they still have faith that will save their soul? Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers and false teachers who overthrew the faith of others, though they once had a saving faith in Christ. They were now away from Truth (Jn.14:6), ready to suffer the eternal punishment of hell, and leading as many people with them as possible. Be careful whom you put on a pedestal and are listening to everything they say as if it were gospel. I challenge everyone to look up all the references I place in this book to test every word out of my mouth, and onto these pages. Make sure they are God’s words and not man’s.
The following passage is fitting concerning our two examples from this passage. “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. Thus, we not only have references to many lost salvations from faulty teaching, but also a record of specific names of men (Heb.6:4-9).â€Â
The reason Paul says he gives the rebels over to Satan, though they were always confirmed to have been redeemed people, is so that they might hit rock bottom and come back to the Lord. If you condone a professing Christian’s sin or rebellion, then you aren’t doing them any good. This is the reason for the judgment and no one is excused from it that has gone astray and ceased to repent. God is no respecter of person in judgment (2 Chr.19:7; 1 Pt.1:17). Giving someone over to Satan is never said of a person who has never been renewed by the blood of the Lamb (Rom.3:25). The reason is because the condemned are already the devil’s (1 Jn.3:8-10). You can’t condemn the condemned. It’s always done out of love, though it seems brutal, but it’s the only thing that’ll give them a chance to be born again, again. It was done to the man in sexual immorality in 1 Corinthians 5, and it worked as seen in 2 Corinthians 2.
As you can see from the example in 1 Timothy 5:11-15, the young widows were saved once, grew cold of their experience with Christ, and were said to have turned aside after Satan due to the damnation of their souls they now had for casting off their first faith. So, the language used of giving someone over to Satan is really something that had already happened by rejecting the commands of the gospel program. Our job is to have no fellowship with them so they’ll not be confused of their destination if they stay their course (1 Cor.5). Of course, this action is only to be taken after you warn your brother and they still refuse to submit to the Father’s will (Jas.5:19-20; 1 Pt.4:17-19; Jude 23). Thus, we not only have references to many lost salvations from these teacher’s flawed teachings, but also a record of specific names of men for very specific examples.
2 Timothy 2:17-18
Example of Hymenaeus and Philetus
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
And their message will spread like gangrene; meaning, false doctrines will eat the life out of a soul until eternal death is reaped. Though Hymenaeus and Philetus are the ones teaching false doctrines, it should be understood by this point that false doctrines also come from demons (1 Tim.4:1). They’re in bad company to say the least. Like demons, Hymenaeus and Philetus have departed from the Truth. They were teaching that the resurrection has past already and they overthrow the faith of some. Maybe you would’ve never thought it too important to get every detail correct as long as you believe in Jesus, this is why it is a big deal to teach correct doctrine, because the false doctrine spreads and makes others to believe lies and have their faith be overthrown. That’s why we’re commanded to study the Bible, so we will interpret it correctly and not believe every word taught to us, lest it isn’t the truth and we are led astray (2 Tim.2:15).
The word ‘overthrow’ is translated from the Greek word ‘anatrepo,’ meaning to overturn, destroy, and subvert. This is the same word used in Titus 1:11 when Paul is talking about vain and deceiving preachers who were subverting whole houses. Clearly this Scripture is saying that what people say and teach can destroy the faith of others. This is not ‘any other thing’ that can separate us from the love of God as referred to in Romans 8:35-39. It is still the personal fault of the one who allows their faith to be overthrown. Then when that happens, Scripture implies here that they are in sin, so it’s still that person’s personal sin that causes the loss of salvation.
I write this because of what the very next verse says (2:19): “Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: The Lord knows those who are His,†and “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.†You see sin is the issue. A Christian who abides in Christ, living and walking in the Spirit, stays set free from sin (Jn.8:31-34; Rom.8:1-13; Gal.5:16-26; 6:7-8). This Scripture here is the basis of Christianity. But the doctrine of eternal security says you are always saved no matter what. But no place in Scripture does it imply that.
Even if these two men never had salvation, this passage still proves that many others had lost theirs. But we can prove that Hymenaeus was soundly saved at one point by having the grace coming from believing in, and following after, Jesus. Verse 17 is the only mention of Philetus, so we can only assume that he was of the same mindset as his companion. Hymenaeus is spoken of in Paul’s first letter to Timothy (1 Tim.1:19-20). Verse 19 of that passage states without doubt that Hymenaeus held the faith while maintaining a good conscience. This meant that he received the gospel of Christ and was following and abiding, as he should, lest he would have had a bad conscience spoken of him. No unsaved man can hold the faith in a pure conscience (1 Tim.3:9; Heb.3:6, 12-14; 4:11; 6:4-9; 10:23, 26-29, 36-39).
Then, in the same verse (1 Tim.1:19), he is said to have put away and shipwrecked his faith. ‘Put away’ means to reject, thrust from, and cast away. You can’t wreck your faith if you never had it. You can’t cast something away if you don’t have it in your possession. If one does this, do they still have faith that will save their soul? Hymenaeus, for certain, was a blasphemer and a false teacher who overthrew the faith of others, though he once had a saving faith in Christ. Thus, we not only have references to many lost salvations from faulty teaching, but also a record of specific names of men.
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The reason they didn't seem like overcomers and they don't seem to fit 1 Jn.5:1-5, is b/c they didn't continue in the Word (Jn.8:31-34), so thet weren't overcomers. Even if the evidence doesn't persuade you concerning these men, as ever been saved, then it should be clear they they destroyed the faith of genuine believers, causing them to err and their faith was overthrown. To continue on and believe that "the truly saved" cannot lose salvation would be a mystery to me.
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1 John 5:1-5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
This passage explains the doctrine of Jesus Christ and simply says that if you overcome the world then you are born of God. But here’s the kicker, and what people have difficulty with; if you don’t overcome the world, being that of the system of sin and corruption that presently rules this age, then you’ll be damned for eternity, even if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The gospel is simple; believing in Christ is required for salvation, as is obedience to the gospel. Many believe, but few of them follow. Many practice the same moral lifestyle as a genuine Christian, but they may believe in another faith. Without the mixing of faith and works, no one will remain justified (Jas.2:21-26). This is how you overcome the world; keep the commandments of God. “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting (Gal.6:7-8).â€Â
Believe the words of the Lord. This is the redemptive work of Christ that you have been taught: “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins (Col.1:14).†This is what justifies you, but half the truth has been blinded to most of you. The forgiveness of our sins is just the past ones we have committed, not future ones that haven’t happened. When has any man been acquitted from past law breaking in the court of law and the judge says, “In case you do it again, don’t worry because you’re automatically innocent of any future transgressions?†“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remision of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God (Rom.3:25).â€Â
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I'm still looking for one person that believes sin can't condemn a "true/real/genuine Christian" to fit that belief in with the Scripture that says only past sins are forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9). I try to address every question/thought, and have asked for this information from specific people (Solo, Saint Iguanas, MarkT). If there is even one subject of Scripture that cannot fit into a doctrinal belief, then that doctrine must be forgotten. That is the rule I adhere to. Please examine this and give answer (anyone).
:crazy :biglol :rolling :naughty 
:mad :verysad :P 
