Eternal Security

[Roro1972]

Why do you read "owe" and assume it has to do with money or debt?

The law is spiritual and defined as such.

I guess you do not know like me what it means in verse 8.

 

[smaller]

I guess you do not know like me what it means in verse 8.

To owe doesn't auto-equate to a person having to reach into their wallet for cash.

 

[GodsGrace]

More than we would like to believe. But a born again believer can tell the difference. One who reads the Bible as a script in a play and act out the parts have certain characteristics: They are high minded, boastful, proud, self worthiness, his superior demeanor is like a man in a new car that passes you, going down a hill, while you are walking to show off his wealth, not knowing there are no breaks on the car! They take belonging to a church or joining a church as an elitist club that take pity that others are not as safe as they are, with an attitude of, I feel sorry for them. They see no need of any chastisement and brag about how wealthy they are and successful they are in business as , car salesmen, Insurance Salesmen, Bankers, Tax collectors, etc. And they give all the credit of their wealth to being Christians as a reward from God., while all the time they LIE, CHEAT, MISLEAD, STEAL, for their own self interest and accumulation of wealth.

I have talked to some of them about their business practices and it is usually the same answer, "that is just the way the business works, we are only doing what is common practice!" The Church of Laodecia ( Rev. 3: 14-19) Christ is left outside of the Church knocking on the door. Not asking them to come out, but asking if HE can come in. (Rev. 3: 20-22)

The Born again believer is humbled by the Love of His Creators Mercy and Grace. Pride has been removed, Joy has taken it's place.

You don't need to answer this and I'm outta here after this but do I see you doing above what you accuse the "false saved" of doing in your original post?? Where you said:

Those who teach against the promise of eternal security, and any other Doctrine of Christ are noticeable by their: absence of Grace; their condescending attitude toward the born again believer; the absence of fellowship with born again believers, their flattery to those who are weak and taken in by their Heretical teachings; Their anger and insults on you when they are confronted with the proof of Scripture, Do not believe in being born again by the Holy Spirit, with out water baptism, you can not be saved, and believing in denominational doctrines over Spiritual wisdom of Christ. Who is the born again believers wisdom.

The very fact that you deem yourself responsible enough to know who is saved and who isn't and by what means they are saved does seem to show an absence of grace, a condescending attitude toward other believers, the absence of fellowship with them. Maybe their anger is due to the fact that it isn't YOU to make the determination of who knows the Lord and who doesn't.

Do you believe it's a particular doctrine, or some certain formula, that saves you? Can a person who is ignorant of the "born again" experience not be able to attain heaven? I know many people who have never read a bible or understand the concept of eternal security and yet have Jesus in their heart - even if they're going about serving Him the wrong way - even if they feel they have to work for their salvation. Are they not saved anyway?

Luke 16:15 comes to mind. "God knows your heart."

If a teaching is heretical, and that's all one has, but he loves the Lord - us he not saved?

For instance, if one DOESN'T believe in eternal security, are they not as good a Christian as you are?


Wondering

 

[Hospes]

I knew an old man who at the age of 7 had no father and had a mother that pretty much did nothing but party and had no interest in her son. One day he wondered into a after-school church program. The teacher pointed to one of those romanticized pictures of Jesus and said "You can talk to him." After the church program was over, he left the church and slipped behind some bushes to pee. The notion of talking to this guy in the picture had captured his seven year old imagination to the point of him shouting to the sky "I want to talk to you!" At that moment something radical happened to him; he was reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. Note the utterly deficient presentation of the Gospel and the lack of most all elements of the "sinners prayer."

I look at such salvations and am struck by how little the saved person knows the Gospel. I look at my own salvation and realize I really knew very little of the Gospel. My point? In most of the Christian circles I have been in, we seem to think salvation is a matter of people getting accurate information in order to make an informed decision to accept Jesus into their heart or decide to follow Him. In actuality, God saves people even when many times they are largely clueless of sound Biblical doctrine. Much of this thread is about people's accurate understanding of various truths and what that implies. I guess I want to emphasize none of it has any implications if God does not act on behalf of people and if God does act on behalf of a person, he is not limited by their lack of doctrinal refinement.

BTW, I am not making an argument for a saved person remaining simple in their understanding: every believer should steward their God-given intellect to refine doctrine, sharpen their understanding of the Gospel, and further their understanding of God. To do less is a belittlement of God via belittling what he has given.

 

[smaller]

I knew an old man who at the age of 7 had no father and had a mother that pretty much did nothing but party and had no interest in her son. One day he wondered into a after-school church program. The teacher pointed to one of those romanticized pictures of Jesus and said "You can talk to him." After the church program was over, he left the church and slipped behind some bushes to pee. The notion of talking to this guy in the picture had captured his seven year old imagination to the point of him shouting to the sky "I want to talk to you!" At that moment something radical happened to him; he was reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. Note the utterly deficient presentation of the Gospel and the lack of most all elements of the "sinners prayer."

I look at such salvations and am struck by how little the saved person knows the Gospel. I look at my own salvation and realize I really knew very little of the Gospel. My point? In most of the Christian circles I have been in, we seem to think salvation is a matter of people getting accurate information in order to make an informed decision to accept Jesus into their heart or decide to follow Him. In actuality, God saves people even when many times they are largely clueless of sound Biblical doctrine. Much of this thread is about people's accurate understanding of various truths and what that implies. I guess I want to emphasize none of it has any implications if God does not act on behalf of people and if God does act on behalf of a person, he is not limited by their lack of doctrinal refinement.

BTW, I am not making an argument for a saved person remaining simple in their understanding: every believer should steward their God-given intellect to refine doctrine, sharpen their understanding of the Gospel, and further their understanding of God. To do less is a belittlement of God via belittling what he has given.

Very true, above. Not all believers have that "instant life changing experience" with God in Christ, even though those who do not are believers as well. Believers come in all kinds of different ways.

Believers who come by direct experience are always a unique sort. And they seldom, if ever, know any doctrines whatsoever, other than what they may have heard. A few lines of witnesses here and there. Sometimes only a Word sentence, planted, is enough to take root, pique their interests and promote their call upon Him. Maybe just a PICTURE, even a PHONY picture of Jesus, in the case above, was enough. I called upon Jesus in a similar fashion, just a Word or 2 stuck in my heart, and my call, in retrospect, was a planting of Gods Word, and not of myself. I don't really know "why" it happened. It just did.

Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What I discovered 'after the fact' is that the intentions of most sects was to tear down that working by various means.

 

[Douglas Summers]

You don't need to answer this and I'm outta here after this but do I see you doing above what you accuse the "false saved" of doing in your original post?? Where you said:

Those who teach against the promise of eternal security, and any other Doctrine of Christ are noticeable by their: absence of Grace; their condescending attitude toward the born again believer; the absence of fellowship with born again believers, their flattery to those who are weak and taken in by their Heretical teachings; Their anger and insults on you when they are confronted with the proof of Scripture, Do not believe in being born again by the Holy Spirit, with out water baptism, you can not be saved, and believing in denominational doctrines over Spiritual wisdom of Christ. Who is the born again believers wisdom.

The very fact that you deem yourself responsible enough to know who is saved and who isn't and by what means they are saved does seem to show an absence of grace, a condescending attitude toward other believers, the absence of fellowship with them. Maybe their anger is due to the fact that it isn't YOU to make the determination of who knows the Lord and who doesn't.

Do you believe it's a particular doctrine, or some certain formula, that saves you? Can a person who is ignorant of the "born again" experience not be able to attain heaven? I know many people who have never read a bible or understand the concept of eternal security and yet have Jesus in their heart - even if they're going about serving Him the wrong way - even if they feel they have to work for their salvation. Are they not saved anyway?

Luke 16:15 comes to mind. "God knows your heart."

If a teaching is heretical, and that's all one has, but he loves the Lord - us he not saved?

For instance, if one DOESN'T believe in eternal security, are they not as good a Christian as you are?


Wondering

Are you born again?

 

[JLB]

The only thing the Bible teaches is to place your trust in Christ for salvation.

Actually that is what you teach.

The Bible doesn't "only" teach to place your trust in Christ, but that we are to obey the Gospel.

Unfortunately many don't know what the Gospel is, and what it means to obey the Gospel.

Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.
This is the Gospel that was preached by Jesus Christ.

Repent is the command of the Gospel.

Not repent of your sins.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.


Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38


Peter did not say "repent of your sins".

A person can not "stop sinning" without the born again new nature of Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit.


The way we are granted this, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

15 So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. 17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in orderto turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:15-18
Repent is about being transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of God.

It's about changing who you serve, as your Lord.

The Gospel of the kingdom is about changing the kingdom your are in, by changing the lord you serve.
The Gospel is God's call to humanity, to "come out of hiding", in darkness, and to come into the light, the kingdom of light.

If we return to serving Satan, after we have escaped the corruption of his kingdom in this world, then we are no longer believers, (obeyers) because we have disobeyed the Gospel.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The only thing the Bible teaches is to place your trust in Christ for salvation."

Actually that is what you teach.

Thanks for noticing!

The Bible doesn't "only" teach to place your trust in Christ, but that we are to obey the Gospel.

There are only 2 places in the NT about "obeying the gospel", and neither of them are in reference to getting saved. They are in reference to unbelievers who never believed.

2 Thess 1:8 - in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
1 Pet 4:17 - For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

For those interested in what the Bible says about receiving salvation/eternal life, the only requirement is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately many don't know what the Gospel is, and what it means to obey the Gospel.

Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.
This is the Gospel that was preached by Jesus Christ.

Repent is the command of the Gospel.

Not repent of your sins.

Repent means to turn to God.

If you are called to turn to God, then by default you are called to turn from Satan as your lord.

The way that your express this obedience of faith, concerning the Gospel is to confess Jesus as Lord.

This is what grants the believer/obeyer of the Gospel, the forgiveness of sins.

How is this materially different than what I post? To confess Jesus as Lord requires that one believe that Jesus IS the Lord.

The way we are granted this, is by repenting, which means turning away from Satan and his kingdom, and turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord.

Again, this is tantamount to placing one's trust in Christ to save them.

This is plainly what the Lord Jesus Christ taught to and commissioned Paul to do.

This is how Paul answered the jailer's question about what he MUST DO to be saved:
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:31

Does this mean that Paul wasn't a very good learner? Or was just not all that obedient?

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you born again?

You can't figure it out?
You seem to be an expert at knowing who is and who isn't.
That was the whole point of my reply to your original post - to which you ask the above.

If you go back to post no. 86, the RED is what YOU say,
The rest is mine.

Here are some comments of yours which go beyond self-righteousness:
O.P.:
Those who teach against the promise of eternal security, and any other Doctrine of Christ are noticeable by their: absence of Grace;

So if I DON'T believe in eternal security, I have no grace?

Post no. 24:
There are too many Scriptures (for one post) to refer to all the passages that distinguish between true believers and the mass of mere formalist, hypocrites, and the deceived legalists who are working for their own salvation, instead of working out a salvation already received as a FREE GIFT. Compare (Philippians 2:12-13) with (Ephesians 2:8-9). These passages will sufficiently show the line of demarcation.
Those who believe are Saved Professors are Lost

There you go again. Determining who's saved and who's lost. This is quite some task you've taken upon yourself.
So the mass of mere formalists,hypocrites and deceived legalists who are working for their salvation are headed straight for hell? Just because they don't know about this FREE GIFT, I guess God can do nothing to save these wretched souls...

post no. 27:
That is the difference between one who has the Spirit of Christ and those who are just curious and idle. This is how the Spiritual (born again believer) is taught.. As a babe (as Paul calls a new believer) there is a change in the believers life. That is called our standing in Christ by Spiritual rebirth. Every single believer has the same standing before God, Saved by the death AND resurrection of our Lord and Savior, Jesus The Christ. From the most fallible and weak Christian to the most illustrious saint, all have the same standing with God (Saved). Neither prayer nor good works or Church going add anything to our standing before the Father. Faith alone in the Gift and work of Christ sets our place as Son's of God., and equally belongs to every believer.
Now our state or walk is another matter, Our state is not as instant as our exalted standing. It is not all at once that the born again believer becomes royal, priestly, and heavenly in walk as he is at once in standing.

Faith alone. Okay. So it's faith that saves. NOT whether I know all the grand doctrines of the Christian faith, as you have been purporting. So, am I allowed to NOT believe in the eternal security doctrine and still be saved?? Before you had said the answer would be No.

And:
From a shy and bashful person, the Spirit moved me right out of the pew to pastor / teacher. Those that teach by the flesh will always deny they are not wrong. The called and Spiritual teacher / pastor will always let the Scriptures speak for themselves as a witness. And after much rejection by those who oppose correction doctrine. They will finally move on.

Trouble is: Now you're denying you're not wrong. So are you teaching by the flesh??

Post no. 39:
But I found out that The Grace of God was Eternal Grace, unconditional by faith in the work and gift of God, and like that, the binding chains were loosed by the Light of God's word that I had only seen from the mind of the flesh. As I have learned, ourSTANDING in God by the work and free gift of the Son is sound and secure the instant we are born again.

Here we agree. But it is not you're function in life to determine who is born again and who is not. It's not your function to determine the conditions. I repeat: It's not your doctrine that will save you, but what you state above: Our standing in God by the work and free gift of the Son.

Whether or not one understands it to be in exactly those words.

W

 

[JLB]

There are only 2 places in the NT about "obeying the gospel", and neither of them are in reference to getting saved.

...neither of them are in reference to getting saved.

Obeying the Gospel is how a person is saved, so just by your statement, it seems you don't understand this fact, or you are willing leading people astray with unbiblical statements.


6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

If you say, “Surely we did not know this,” Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds? Proverbs 24:12




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"
There are only 2 places in the NT about "obeying the gospel", and neither of them are in reference to getting saved.
...neither of them are in reference to getting saved."

Obeying the Gospel is how a person is saved, so just by your statement, it seems you don't understand this fact, or you are willing leading people astray with unbiblical statements.

Apparently you've totally misunderstood what I said. What I said refutes what you posted.

When the Bible says (2x) to "obey the gospel" it means to "believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior". Which is stated in the Bible many, many times.

And I also showed that your understanding of "repent" isn't materially different than to "believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior".

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

I've already attempted to teach what these verses mean. Seems further repetition will not help.

If you say, “Surely we did not know this,” Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it? He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds? Proverbs 24:12

What does this have to do with salvation? Both believers and unbelievers will be "recompensed" for their deeds. Do you not know this?

2 Cor 5:10 is for believers and Rev 20:11-15 is for unbelievers.

For believers, their good deeds will result in eternal rewards, while bad deeds will result in loss of rewards, while for unbelievers, their deeds as recorded in "the books" will determine just how "tolerable" it will be for them in the lake of fire.

Or, what Jesus said about it being "more tolerable" for the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha was meaningless.
Matt 10:15, 11:22, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12, 14

Do you believe that what Jesus said about being more tolerable for some than others was meaningless?

 

[FreeGrace]

Here are some comments of yours which go beyond self-righteousness:
O.P.:
Those who teach against the promise of eternal security, and any other Doctrine of Christ are noticeable by their: absence of Grace;

So if I DON'T believe in eternal security, I have no grace?

No, it means that those who don't understand God's grace. We are saved by grace and KEPT by that same grace.

Those who don't believe in eternal security claim variously that one must maintain their own salvation (by works, whether they admit that or not), or that certain sins will cause loss of salvation (in spite of the fact that Christ died for all sins).

 

[GodsGrace]

No, it means that those who don't understand God's grace. We are saved by grace and KEPT by that same grace.

Those who don't believe in eternal security claim variously that one must maintain their own salvation (by works, whether they admit that or not), or that certain sins will cause loss of salvation (in spite of the fact that Christ died for all sins).

No FreeGrace,
You haven't followed my conversation with Douglas.
It doesn't matter if you believe in OSAS or not,
you're still saved. That's the point. It's not anyone's determination to declare one saved or unsaved - that determination is for God alone. Only He knows the heart.

I also do not want to start a thread on eternal salvation, let me just say that I don't understand how you could come to the undersanding that NOT believing in it means that I believe I'm to save myself with my own works or that certain sins will cause loss of salvation.

In the end, we believe the same outcome: I believe one could lose salvation by their own determination and free will.
You believe if it's lost it means it was never really there to begin with.

Same outcome. Game over.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Also, FreeGrace,
Since we're here, would you mind explaining what you mean (with JLB's conversation) by:

When the Bible says (2x) to "obey the gospel" it means to "believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior"

How would you explain what it means to "believe in Jesus Christ."?

W

 

[Hospes]

No, it means that those who don't understand God's grace. We are saved by grace and KEPT by that same grace.

Those who don't believe in eternal security claim variously that one must maintain their own salvation (by works, whether they admit that or not), or that certain sins will cause loss of salvation (in spite of the fact that Christ died for all sins).

To give you a data point that does not fit neatly in what I think you are saying. God reconciled me to himself when I was 15, I am now 55. For years I believed I had the ability to walk away from my relationship with God and lose my salvation. (I never imagined why I'd do such a stupid thing, but nonetheless believed I could.) I figured if I walked in through the door, I had the freedom to walk back out. I no longer believe this. During my earlier years it sounds as if you'd doubted my salvation, but I assure you God has held on to me constantly while patiently working to change my understanding. My encouragement to you is to not determine for yourself a person's status with God, remembering you - and I - have horribly incomplete understanding and God's work in the person is only partially complete.

 

[FreeGrace]

I also do not want to start a thread on eternal salvation, let me just say that I don't understand how you could come to the undersanding that NOT believing in it means that I believe I'm to save myself with my own works or that certain sins will cause loss of salvation.

My conclusion is based on what all the conditional security crowd has said about the matter.

In the end, we believe the same outcome: I believe one could lose salvation by their own determination and free will.
You believe if it's lost it means it was never really there to begin with.

No, you've mistaken me for a Calvinist. And disagree with your opinion because there are no verses about having any such "free will" or determination to lose your salvation. Could you guide me to any verse that teaches this?

Same outcome. Game over.
Wondering

Nope. Once a person believes in Christ for eternal life, they are saved, forgiven, justified, born again as a new creature, and become a child of God.

There aren't any verses that indicate that any of these things are cancelled for any reason.

In fact, Paul covered this in principle here:
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38,39 NASB

The bolded phrase "things to come" would obviously include anything and everything that may occur. So it doesn't matter what comes, nothing that comes will be able to separate us from the love of God.

I know that some from the conditional security ilk will claim that God will still love the child of His that He will send to the second death anyway. But I don't see any rational thought in that, since God gives eternal life to everyone who believes.

So how can one who has been given the free gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29) exist in what is called the "second death", meaning the lake of fire?

There is no sense in that. iow, it is senseless to think so.

 

[FreeGrace]

Also, FreeGrace,
Since we're here, would you mind explaining what you mean (with JLB's conversation) by:

When the Bible says (2x) to "obey the gospel" it means to "believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior"

How would you explain what it means to "believe in Jesus Christ."?
W

Great question!!

To believe in Christ means to place your very soul into the security of Jesus Christ who died for your sins and gives you eternal life so that you will live with God forever.

Believing is trusting. And we trust in Christ, not in ourselves, or our deeds/works, etc.

I'm going to heaven because I am trusting that the promise of eternal life has been given to me based on trusting in what Jesus Christ did for me personally on the cross.

I do not believe that my action of believing saves me or anyone else. I believe that God saves those who believe. Why? Because the Bible actually says so.

"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

 

[FreeGrace]

To give you a data point that does not fit neatly in what I think you are saying. God reconciled me to himself when I was 15, I am now 55. For years I believed I had the ability to walk away from my relationship with God and lose my salvation. (I never imagined why I'd do such a stupid thing, but nonetheless believed I could.) I figured if I walked in through the door, I had the freedom to walk back out. I no longer believe this. During my earlier years it sounds as if you'd doubted my salvation, but I assure you God has held on to me constantly while patiently working to change my understanding. My encouragement to you is to not determine for yourself a person's status with God, remembering you - and I - have horribly incomplete understanding and God's work in the person is only partially complete.

I'll ask this: for those who think they can lose their salvation, where is their trust being placed in regard to their salvation?

I do hope you'll answer this.

However, if there is no assurance of one's salvation, it would easily appear as if one's faith isn't a Biblical faith.

So, if one has trusted in Christ for salvation, but thinks that they can lose salvation in some way, what is their faith in?

There is a phrase, "assurance is the essence of saving faith". Do you agree with this or not?

 

[smaller]

So, if one has trusted in Christ for salvation, but thinks that they can lose salvation in some way, what is their faith in?

There is a phrase, "assurance is the essence of saving faith". Do you agree with this or not?

I would totally agree. It's somewhat odd that anyone would promote doubting salvation as mandatory to being saved. But that is what the claims of some camps are. It's actually quite bizarre, that we must doubt our faith in order to be saved. Quite ridiculous.

1 Timothy 2:8
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Why would we doubt Jesus Abilities to save, and instead, bring our own abilities into the picture and then doubt? It just makes no sense.

Yet we hear this opposing cry just about everywhere. Doubt and wrath to the believers. It's the antithesis of saving faith. I chalk it down to the deception of the flesh, thinking the flesh actions can save when that was never the case. Believers are right, that flesh actions can DAMN, and that is where we ALL started our walk, in wrath and damnation, prior to seeing The Light of His Life (not our own.)

The only note that I bring up, to keep JUDGMENT intact, is that the flesh of all believers remains contrary to and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. I will not extend a spittle of Spiritual satisfaction to the vile contrary to against the Spirit flesh of anyone, starting with my own.

It is in adverse judgments that the flesh is kept in it's rightful perspective. It is from this BINDING with the contrary, that His Grace and Mercy ALONE, proves His Needs for all of us.

 

[Douglas Summers]

You can't figure it out?[/QUOTE]
Why can you not just answer the question?
You seem to be an expert at knowing who is and who isn't.
There is no such thing as an expert. You are either born again or not. You MUST be born again. So if I DON'T believe in eternal security, I have no grace?
Correct. Feeling sorry for someone is not grace. The animosity you have against the Gospel and Spiritual birth of the born again believer is self revealing. The Gospel of God is not a list of do's and do not's, it is an actual Spiritual birth. It is not up to us to add, subtract or change the Gospel. It is the Gospel of God, not God and man (which is what has polluted God's Gospel from the beginning). Man is not tasked with witnessing as a favor or a work in place of Christ's absence, that is called self willed worship AND teaching. Read John Chapters 15 thru 18. Scripture is not for private interpretation, any teachings injected with the will of man is rejected. God's purpose is for us to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE (by the Holy Spirit) of Christ. COMPLETE CONFORMITY. Not what we think Christ should be like according to the flesh.
If you do not believe the Doctrine's that Christ taught, then what are you teaching? The Gift of discernment is given for a reason.

Lutheran or Methodist?