Evidence for events in the Old Testament

[nmwings]

Hello nmwings

I have extracted elements from two of your posts as this is a subject which interests me greatly and you appear to have given it some thought. We are discussing the fundamentals of belief and disbelief. I am an ex-Christian,currently stuck in disbelief but searching for good reason to change my position.

Maybe you’re in a similar situation I used to be in. This is my personal testimony: I grew up in a Pentecostal church and everything I believed was based on things people told me. I trusted my pastor and elders and I believed what they told me because frankly, why would they lie? But deep down I always felt something was missing but I was afraid to speak up. Around the Holiday seasons, I knew I was supposed to be happy, but deep down….. I wasn’t.
In many churches the message being taught may not be the whole Scripture. It seems to me the pastor will pick a portion of the scripture to teach on, but doesn’t give us, as Paul Harvey puts it, “The Rest of the Story.” I always walked away feeling only “half-filled.” Something was missing!

Then something happened that changed my life (and my view) forever. I was sent a video that described the true origins of the “Christian” holidays I was observing, which all had deep pagan roots. As I watched it my whole body felt like I had a death grip on a high-voltage electric wire. I believe with my whole heart that I was experiencing a “quickening” of my spirit. So I set out to find the truth for myself (the rest of the story.)
Early into my digging, the Lord kept bringing up 2 passages. The 1^st was John 5:46 which told me, “If I can’t believe what Moses wrote about Him, how in the world can I believe in my Savior?” Ok, I knew the basic OT stories from Sunday School and children’s books, but like many, I just thought they were neat old stories. So I asked, "Where does Moses teach about the Messiah?" Then the Lord showed me that these neat stories not only happened but were also showing things to come. I discovered that Jacob’s Ladder was the Messiah (angels ascending/descending upon Him as John 1:51 says). The story of Joseph is the story of Messiah. The Pillars of Fire and Cloud were the Messiah, the Rock was the Messiah. The Burning Bush, the voice from Sinai, everything in the Torah (the 1^st 5 Books of Moses) was all about who the Messiah is, what He will do and how "‘lil O me" fits into His eternal plan!

The 2^nd passage was John 4:48 which told me that “I couldn’t believe unless I see the signs and wonders for myself." The apostle John told me in John 20:30-31 that he recorded the signs that Messiah performed so that I might believe.” No other Gospel writer claims this testimony. As I looked at these signs from a Christian perspective (meaning by leaving out the OT) any good magician can trick the eyes of those wanting to be tricked (like say, Criss Angel.) So I asked myself, "What is the difference between Yeshua (Jesus) of Nazareth and a really good magician?"

I know my reply may seem overwhelming, but the jest of it is this: until someone searches for themselves, my explanation is no different than sitting in a pew listening to someone preach. Soooo.... may I offer you a challenge…? Go to the book of John. He points out 3 very specific signs (he actually numbers the 1^st two.) What are the first 2 and why do you think John considers them so significant? I eagerly await your response……
<o:p</o
P.S.– I went back and re-read your post and realized I didn’t answer about the dragons. Yes, I do believe in dragons! Their skeletons are in virtually every museum in the world.... Dinosaur in Latin means, “terrible lizard" or "dragon.”

 

[Aardverk]

Thanks nmwings. We do have similar stories and I will follow your suggestion to read John again.

As for the dragons, it was the'fire-breathing' bit that I was challenging. There is no evidence of fire-breathing dinosaurs or leviathans that I have ever seen.;)

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

(you have to have faith. You have to put your trust into God. Then he will answer you. You can't pray for Wisdom and understanding from God, and then seek your understanding and evidence from men. God doesn't work that way IME.)

very good Edward. that tells it just the way it is.

 

[Aardverk]

Thanks, Allenwynne.

Hey Aardverk, do you have an answer for me yet?

Blessings to all today on this day we celebrate our Saviours Birthday.

Sorry Edward, I have had a quick look back but I can't work out which question you want answered. All I can see are a few questions which I assumed were rhetorical. if I have missed something important, do let me know.

And a Happy Christmas to you too.

 

[wayseer]

I have a strong faith in God, but having read quite a bit recently about the historicity of the Old Testament, I've become very troubled.

I have long held the belief that the Bible is all a divinely inspired parable up to the end of the Tower of Babel story in the Book of Genesis, then from Abraham onwards it is all true.

But I've recently read that the vast majority of Bible scholars hold the view that most of the Old Testament was written during the Babylonian exile period and that there is absolutely no evidence that Moses existed or the Exodus ever happened. There is no trace of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea or any trace of the Israelites in the Sinai desert even though they spent 40 years there. Also archealogical evidence all suggests that the Israelites were native Canaanites and that the conquest described in Joshua never happened.

So does that mean that the latter half of Genesis, and all of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua are myth? If so, at what point does the Bible start to become literally true?

Jesus believed in the literal truth of all of the Hebrew Bible. But if He is God then He is omniscient (all knowing), so how can Christianity be true if basically the first half of the Old Testament never historically took place?

I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I'm having a bit of a crisis in my faith here and would appreciate hearing what fellow believing Christians have to say about this.

No offense taken.

Good questions - you raise a significant issue of faith.

I make a couple of points. The first is that the biblical texts are neither science nor history class 101. The biblical texts are God's revelation of himself to humans. The only way that can happen is through the use of story.

Second point - the biblical authors were not addressing you and me in the 21st century. They would freak out if they saw our world. They were saturated with their world which is a long way from our world.

The point is - how do you respond when confronted with these stories? Do you allow the stories to challenge you own internal sense of what can and cannot happen? Do you, in adopting a rational and logical position, effectively stop God right there? Do you put God into the same box as you?

Or do you allow the stories to move you into another world - a world that is unseen expect for those who have stopped trying to put God into a box.

There is this story of a river which was making it way to the sea but was stopped by a vast desert. No matter how hard it tried it could not get pass the sand and rather than being a majestic river ending up turning into a putrified swamp.

It asked around by no one offered anything and the sand was no telling.

Finally the river heard the voice of the wind and Wind asked if it could transport the river. At the first River was scared but finally allowed Wind it lift and transport it many miles beyond the sands and let it down gentle on a distant mountain range. There it made its way to the sea as beautiful and majestic river.

 

[Aardverk]

Do you have faith in God Aardverk?

Not the God of The Bible.

I have said many times in these pages that 'I know nothing'. My meaning is that I am open to any possibility through many religions and none.

I believe that Jesus walked the Earth, that he was quite exceptional and that he preached love, peace and tolerance. He was almost unique in that at the time. In all probability he was executed for his 'trouble making' and that is reinforced by the Dead Sea Scrolls. According to The Bible, he deliberately set out to cause upset and make a nuisance of himself. He was, I suspect, trying to make a point. That point was probably better understood at the time than it is now but again, I know nothing. I am speculating - same as everyone else.

Was he the Son of God? I have no idea. On the balance of probabilities he was not, but I am open to that idea.

Is The Bible worth bothering with? Yes, it is full of wisdom that is relevant across the centuries.
Was it inspired by God? I seriously doubt that. It was politically inspired and done at the express order of the Pagan emperor Constantine. God would have done a far better job. Don't you think?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Not the God of The Bible.

I have said many times in these pages that 'I know nothing'. My meaning is that I am open to any possibility through many religions and none.

I believe that Jesus walked the Earth, that he was quite exceptional and that he preached love, peace and tolerance. He was almost unique in that at the time. In all probability he was executed for his 'trouble making' and that is reinforced by the Dead Sea Scrolls. According to The Bible, he deliberately set out to cause upset and make a nuisance of himself. He was, I suspect, trying to make a point. That point was probably better understood at the time than it is now but again, I know nothing. I am speculating - same as everyone else.

Was he the Son of God? I have no idea. On the balance of probabilities he was not, but I am open to that idea.

Is The Bible worth bothering with? Yes, it is full of wisdom that is relevant across the centuries.
Was it inspired by God? I seriously doubt that. It was politically inspired and done at the express order of the Pagan emperor Constantine. God would have done a far better job. Don't you think?

Do you think you could tell God how to do his job better?

 

[wayseer]

You being controlled by rationalism. Despite the preaching by people such as Dawkins, the wold is not a rational place. Yet we are consistently told we have to be 'rational'.

One day you will leave the swamp.

 

[Aardverk]

Do you think you could tell God how to do his job better?

Now, now allenwynne, don't try to twist my words. My meaning was very clear - God would have done a far better job at writing The Bible. Think about it.

As soon as it was 'finished' people started arguing about it again because not even they, the editors, thought it was the word of God. It was revised and revised, different denominations started to include different parts, other denominations sprung up and interpreted it in different ways, the denominations started fighting and killing each other again, every time someone reads out a passage of The Bible to support their claims someone else reads out a different passage which supports their view. Explanations were included that we now know are allegory but some people doggedly persist that it is literal - and on it goes. We have 200 major Christian denominations believing in different things, hundreds more sects, no two people believing the same thing in any one church and arguments on forums like this about how to interpret words which appear perfectly clear to most normal people.

On top of that we have the crucially important places - Bethlehem and Nazareth, that are, archaeologically, highly questionable. We have events occurring that have no historical support and so many parallels with the events in tales of other 'gods' that conflation seems the only plausible explanation.

IF God wanted all that fighting, division, killing, argument and doubt then I concede that God did his job well. If however we assume that we have a loving, caring God, then it is pretty clear to me that God did not write or inspire The Bible that we have. He would have done a better job - which is exactly what I said in the first place.

Your turn allenwynne. Why do you think The Bible is the inspired word of God?

 

[Aardverk]

I think this is the root of your problem Aardverk. If you would approach God in prayer with a contrite heart and tell him that you know nothing and need him to reveal his grace and understanding to you so that you may know that he is real and encourage you to faith...he will be there for you and stand up to the promise of answering the door if you knock.

For a large part of my life I was a devout, all-believing, Bible toting Christian. I then made the mistake of studying theology and realizing that not everything I was told was true. The more I looked into it, the more I realized that there was virtually nothing that was supportable. I could of course ignore all that and kid myself that I believe. It is called self-delusion. I could pretend that I believe but that would be totally dishonest. Would God want me to be dishonest?

If your read scripture and any of it scares you...

Why on earth would any of it scare me? I have often heard statements like that but I haven't a clue why anything written in The Bible should scare me or anger me or anything else. It is a book. I have read hundreds of books. Some have bored me, some have amused me, some have educated me but none have scared me.

 

[Aardverk]

You being controlled by rationalism.

Thank you very much.

 

[wayseer]

For a large part of my life I was a devout, all-believing, Bible toting Christian. I then made the mistake of studying theology and realizing that not everything I was told was true. The more I looked into it, the more I realized that there was virtually nothing that was supportable. I could of course ignore all that and kid myself that I believe. It is called self-delusion. I could pretend that I believe but that would be totally dishonest. Would God want me to be dishonest?

Honest with yourself at least.

Just because the texts are not what you think they should be is more a reflection of your own programmed response. You have been brainwashed by rationalism to come to this point of self-delusion. You went looking for something that was not there and then blame the texts for not delivering what you have been programmed to think they should deliver.

It is only after the study has been done that real work starts. Dealing with the Real is more than nice spirituality or warm fuzzy feelings - it is unsettling and uncomfortable. You feeling uncomfortable - good. That's a start.

Why on earth would any of it scare me? I have often heard statements like that but I haven't a clue why anything written in The Bible should scare me or anger me or anything else. It is a book. I have read hundreds of books. Some have bored me, some have amused me, some have educated me but none have scared me.

You should be scared. The fact that your'e not scared means you have not learnt anything that secular world cannot offer.

If you have done your study you should by now have come to some realization that God is not contained in a book with the effect that no matter how many times you read it nothing will happen. Books are programmed to lead you along a certain path but you are in a dark room clutching something which you can't see but which you are trying to make some sense out of but which happens to be, in reality, the left leg of an elephant.

Stop being controlled by rationalism.

 

[Aardverk]

I will try hard to remain polite :halo

....You have been brainwashed by rationalism to come to this point of self-delusion.

No, sorry, I just can't read that without laughing :biglol

You went looking for something that was not there and then blame the texts for not delivering what you have been programmed to think they should deliver.

You have that absolutely back to front. I went looking for what was there, not what wasn't there. I was trying to find information to support my arguments from your side of the debate - only to find that there was virtually no support. You have deliberately chosen to ignore rational thought and go with gut instinct - that is absolutely fine by me. That is your decision.

You should be scared. The fact that your'e not scared means you have not learnt anything that secular world cannot offer.

Would you care to rephrase that? It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

If you have done your study you should by now have come to some realization that God is not contained in a book.....

But that is exactly what Christians believe. Unless you can honestly recite the Nicene creed you have no right to call yourself a Christian. Where does all the information come from that is in the Nicene creed? The Bible of course. The Christian God, is indeed in a book; anything else that we may believe about God, that is not contained in The Bible, is speculation based upon voices heard in people's heads. If someone hears voices in his head - do you accept that voice as God or do you suspect that he should see a doctor?

Stop being controlled by rationalism.

Stop being irrational. ;)

 

[Grazer]

Rationalism stops you from believing absolutely anything you're told. Without rationalism, you can't make sense of the bible, you can't make sense of words and sentences, you can't determine right from wrong. Rationalism helped lead me to God.

We all need rationalism to function in this world.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I will try hard to remain polite :halo

No, sorry, I just can't read that without laughing :biglol


You have that absolutely back to front. I went looking for what was there, not what wasn't there. I was trying to find information to support my arguments from your side of the debate - only to find that there was virtually no support. You have deliberately chosen to ignore rational thought and go with gut instinct - that is absolutely fine by me. That is your decision.


Would you care to rephrase that? It makes no sense to me whatsoever.


But that is exactly what Christians believe. Unless you can honestly recite the Nicene creed you have no right to call yourself a Christian. Where does all the information come from that is in the Nicene creed? The Bible of course. The Christian God, is indeed in a book; anything else that we may believe about God, that is not contained in The Bible, is speculation based upon voices heard in people's heads. If someone hears voices in his head - do you accept that voice as God or do you suspect that he should see a doctor?

Stop being irrational. ;)

Mr. Aardverk, you are challenging a belief that is of benefit to a group of people that believe it.
But it's obvious that your only interest in it is yourself.
This behavior is irrational in and of itself.
Therefore, you continually contradict yourself.

 

[Grazer]

Mr. Aardverk, you are challenging a belief that is of benefit to a group of people that believe it.
But it's obvious that your only interest in it is yourself.
This behavior is irrational in and of itself.
Therefore, you continually contradict yourself.

Somethings need to be challenged though

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Milk-Drops]

I know that some events of the Old testament did happen, but I also know that some don't coincide with other histories of the era. Some of the stories are shared by several different empires and societies in the region, but all disagree on when and how it went down. I think that its less important to prove that something happened, and more focus should be spent on why its important why it happened, or the impact of why it happened.

Does it matter to the devout whether there was an actual ark or Garden, or is it the meaning of the story? I simply don't have the energy to prove or disprove the Bible because I think that for the most part its the fundamentals that matter and not the literal points that matters.

 

[Grazer]

Having faith is rationalism now? That a new one on me.

The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, Aardverk. You guys are quite humorous and don't shake my faith.
To each his own, I guess. I think some of you guys may be how they say, over-educated.

Impossible. No such thing. You can never have too much knowledge, its just a question of timing

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[Blev]

Maybe what we have here is a failure to communicate ;)
2 kinds of knowledge: Head knowledge comes from learning with the mind. Heart knowledge comes by revelation of God's Spirit to our spirit. 2 completely different things that can be contrary one with the other. Thats why we believe God with our heart (spirit) and need to cast down the thoughts in our mind that are contrary to what He says

 

[Aardverk]

Mr. Aardverk, you are challenging a belief that is of benefit to a group of people that believe it.
But it's obvious that your only interest in it is yourself.
This behavior is irrational in and of itself.
Therefore, you continually contradict yourself.

Do pay attention allenwynne. I have never challenged your 'belief' nor anyone else's. I have made it perfectly clear that I am happy for anyone to hold whatever belief they want - as long as that does no harm to anyone else.

I have answered questions but I have never challenged anyone's belief. In fact I have said extremely clearly that "I know nothing" - remember that? If "I know nothing", how on earth could I be challenging someone's beliefs? I have also said very clearly that I am open to the beliefs of many religions. Remember any of that? Do pay attention, especially as you only seem interested in issuing insults. Try to make them valid - for your own dignity.

If you think this post contains errors, perhaps you would like to point out where I have challenged your belief. :gah If I really have contradicted myself I am sure you will be delighted to point out where. No? Not going to bother? I wonder why!

Just calm down. I am not anti any religion, certainly not anti-Christian. I am however anti bigotry, bullying, lies and propaganda.