Evolution+Deeptime question

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KV-44-v1

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QUESTION: Why do people believe in Darwin Evolution, cosmic evolution, and/or millions of years, even though it evidently contradicts Genesis and erodes Biblical trust?

Sure Creation vs Evolution is not a salvation issue, but it is the foundation of our faith. And when that foundation is compromised, more compromise will come.

QUESTION 2: Why do many Christians Not see these facts and conclusions on these?
 
Therefore, there are clear metaphors in Genesis, which, when taken literally, make no sense but, when taken metaphorically, make total sense.
They only dont make sense if you believe that God is limited or if you believe a different worldview
These metaphors helped illiterate people understand things they were not prepared to comprehend.
What "things they dont comprehend"?
Probably, the six days of creation is one of these metaphors—something we are still unable to fully understand.
Probably not. People question the Genesis days a bunch but i dont see anyone questioning the days anywhere else in the Bible. Or any amount of time besides "day". How arbitrary.

Oh wait, what if opposing views want to undermine the Genesis foundation that is needed for a stable Bible-based faith? Hmmmm??
 
Why do people believe in Darwin Evolution, cosmic evolution, and/or millions of years, even though it evidently contradicts Genesis and erodes Biblical trust?
Darwin erodes Christian trust as much as knowing that the Earth is not the center of the universe erodes Christian trust. This well-known phenomenon does NOT contradict God's words; it contradicts a superficial, literal interpretation of God's words.

Again, we are in a delicate time, a transitional time—we can all feel it. Superficial and puerile interpretations of religion will no longer be sustainable. Science does NOT contradict God's words; it contradicts the ignorance we apply to them.

Consider the words of one of the main contributors to quantum mechanics:

"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass, God is waiting for you."
—Werner Heisenberg

When people have a superficial knowledge of science, they often turn to atheism because they also have a SUPERFICIAL KNOWLEDGE OF RELIGION. But when people delve deeply into the truths of both areas, they discover that not only are God's words true, but they point to a truth far broader than anyone could have imagined.
What "things they dont comprehend"?
It is extremely dangerous to provide technical knowledge to primitive people. They use it in the most dangerous and brutal ways. We are extremely brutal—no need for examples.

Metaphors allow divinity to tell us specific things without providing technical knowledge, which is, for me, further evidence that not just intelligence, but a vast intelligence is behind the biblical words. In fact, it is ridiculous how many "atheists" pretend to debunk biblical words when they have not even grasped the lower levels of the wisdom contained in them. They only succeed in exposing their own ignorance.

As I said before, the goal of religious texts is not to provide us with technical knowledge, but to help us grow spiritually.

Look, let me explain how I see this question. There is an ocean, which is the truth. God takes one cup from this ocean—the Bible—something we can manage and assimilate according to our level and capacity. Science takes only some droplets from this ocean; this is what we know technically about the universe.
 
Again, we are in a delicate time, a transitional time—we can all feel it. Superficial and puerile interpretations of religion will no longer be sustainable. Science does NOT contradict God's words; it contradicts the ignorance we apply to them.
Yes, when God created Adam and Eve, He created idiots and it took modern man to understand God. Got it!

Just curious, but do you believe that God did create the first man Adam from the dust of the ground as God's word says?
 
Yes, when God created Adam and Eve, He created idiots and it took modern man to understand God. Got it!

Just curious, but do you believe that God did create the first man Adam from the dust of the ground as God's word says?

I believe God created Adam from dust just as much as you believe there is an ocean above our heads, supported by a vault.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯​

 
Darwin erodes Christian trust as much as knowing that the Earth is not the center of the universe erodes Christian trust.
False. Darwinism contradicts Bible history. People who seek to merge Radical Evolution with the Bible assert that is how He made them, instead of making them ex Nihilo. But you see, kinds only make other kinds. Horses stay horses. A bunch of species yes but still horses.

One argument goes that God cobbling animals together to make the first kinds shows a lack of either power or character on God's part. Why would God use a slow painful, destruction riddled process and not create instantly? God is The Creator, not merely a clumsy destuctive "shaper".

What history does flat or round earth contradict? Either shape, it is still made Ex Nihilo. Plus, most YEC know that earth is globe.
This well-known phenomenon does NOT contradict God's words; it contradicts a superficial, literal interpretation of God's words.
It is not superficial. Actually it explains plenty of things. Can you tell me the verses in Genesis that are supposedly "allegorical"?? It'd be easier if you accepted the truth in pure form.
Again, we are in a delicate time, a transitional time—we can all feel it. Superficial and puerile interpretations of religion will no longer be sustainable.
Like yours, lol :p (joke)
Science does NOT contradict God's words; it contradicts the ignorance we apply to them.
History doesnt, either. What does contradict God's Words is the naturalistic narrative cobbled together and dreamt up by those seeking to find alternatives to the real, defensible history found in the Bible. God did not start His Word on non-facts. He started it on plain facts.

Trying to "predict the past" relies way too heavily on assumptions. Since the "deep past" - hundreds of 1,000's of years OR MORE, are being predicted, the predictions are EXTREMELY questionable and unreliable. You can make up almost anything and anything will fly. Because its the unknown "deep past"! And very often these past-predictions are made based off SCANT EVIDENCE. That is no way to do science. That is treading into history. Keep science and HISTORY seperate.

Tell me, what purpose would God have starting His Word laced with a bunch of non-facts?? Makes ZERO sense. You may think a recently made view helps athiest come to Christianity, but ironically that is SOMETHING they laugh at us for.

Consider the words of one of the main contributors to quantum mechanics:

"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass, God is waiting for you."
—Werner Heisenberg
Ive heard something like this before. It seems to apply to only some athiests, and i think openness to God is closer to the surface or the middle.
When people have a superficial knowledge of science, they often turn to atheism because they also have a SUPERFICIAL KNOWLEDGE OF RELIGION.
Yes. Athiests even functionally (and unintentionally) admit their position is one of ignorance. They often appeal to "lack of evidence" (TM) (R) (C) as proof its true.
But when people delve deeply into the truths of both areas, they discover that not only are God's words true, but they point to a truth far broader than anyone could have imagined.

It is extremely dangerous to provide technical knowledge to primitive people. They use it in the most dangerous and brutal ways. We are extremely brutal—no need for examples.
And He gave us historical knowledge. He didn't list out the parts of a steam engine or car in His Word.
Metaphors allow divinity to tell us specific things without providing technical knowledge,
Assuming Genesis is part metaphor, what things?
which is, for me, further evidence that not just intelligence, but a vast intelligence is behind the biblical words.
Whtether one views Genesis as fact or reference to something else, the fact remains that The OMNISCIENT God is behind those Words. Yes!
In fact, it is ridiculous how many "atheists" pretend to debunk Biblical words when they have not even grasped the lower levels of the wisdom contained in them. They only succeed in exposing their own ignorance.
yessss
As I said before, the goal of religious texts is not to provide us with technical knowledge, but to help us grow spiritually.
There are many goals of the Bible. To claim it has only one is risky.
Look, let me explain how I see this question. There is an ocean, which is the truth. God takes one cup from this ocean—the Bible—something we can manage and assimilate according to our level and capacity. Science takes only some droplets from this ocean; this is what we know technically about the universe.
Ok
 
I believe God created Adam from dust just as much as you believe there is an ocean above our heads, supported by a vault.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯​

He really did create us from dust. Why would anyone believe otherwise? Athiest would have us think we came from monkeys or their imagined non-monkey ancestors.

Fact: Humans contain all the elements found in certain soil or dust types! If God was being true and not simply using references we would expect this.

Before the worldwide Flood, there MAY have used to be liquid water above the earth, insulating us from UV rays, protecting us even better from meteors, insulating the planet to sustain life, and more. The earth could have looked like a blue sphere or a sparkling, semi-clear sphere. But this is a theory. If athiest can propose theories about history that emerge from their worldview, Bible followers can too. One big difference is, YEC do not call their beliefs about history and origins "science".

Fast forward to today. If there was such water above, the Flood exhausted it and now it's the oceans. The closest thing we have to such a "vault" or "ocean above" are the clouds and atmospheric watervapor.



There are ZERO Bible verses that lend credence to the Allegory view of Genesis.

Nobody understands God; this is impossible.
Do you mean all of God?
The only difference between our understanding and that of our ancestors is technical, nothing more.
How would you know this?
In fact, science is not concerned with truth.
Atoms in a material, when they get energy, hit eachother faster and make them move and vibrate faster, making the material hotter. This is *A* truth. Science is KNOWLEDGE. And this KNOWLEDGE can be tried and found true. So in a way, YES. It is. Small t truth. Now if you mean CAPITAL T TRUTH, well that is different.
 
Do you mean all of God?
You can't understand God partially...

It is hard for us to grasp this, but God cannot be understood by our intellect—not even a fraction of Him, not a small piece of Him. Our intellect is just ridiculous compared to the Truth. Intellect consists of words, concepts, and ideas. All of these are merely approximate "images," not the real thing.
There are many goals of the Bible. To claim it has only one is risky.
Agree
Can you tell me the verses in Genesis that are supposedly "allegorical"??
Do you think there are waters above, separated by a vault from the waters below? Maybe we need a submarine to go to space?

The only thing that separates YOUR interpretation (we come from dust) from MY interpretation (well... yes, we come from dust) is TIME.

What is time for God? Nothing...

The rest is just you and me having a different opinion on how dust becomes a human being.
 
You can't understand God partially...

It is hard for us to grasp this, but God cannot be understood by our intellect—not even a fraction of Him, not a small piece of Him.
Well, that's something you understand about God, then. So that point is already self refuting.

We also understand that God is sinless, that He is Omnipresent , Omnipotent, Omniscient. All-wise. We know there is nothing that will even be greater than Him. We know He inspired the Bible.

Wow, that is a bunch of things about God that we understand.

Perhaps your definition oof the term "understand" is different?

Our intellect is just ridiculous compared to the Truth.
Intellect consists of words, concepts, and ideas. All of these are merely approximate "images," not the real thing.

Do you think there are waters above, separated by a vault from the waters below? Maybe we need a submarine to go to space?
As you read earlier, there MAY or may Not have been. We don't know what the theoretical material that made up the theoretical watery Firmament was, or if the water was in orbit around the Earth like the Moon is.

And besides, that "firmament" and "vault" can easily refer to TODAY'S atmosphere, too. Rereard abofe.
The only thing that separates YOUR interpretation (we come from dust) from MY interpretation (well... yes, we come from dust) is TIME.

What is time for God? Nothing...

The rest is just you and me having a different opinion on how dust becomes a human being.
 
Hi KV-44-v1

yeah, I don't think I'm going to get an answer to that question.
Certainly, the center of the solar system is not the planet Earth.

Anyway, if you want to play the "relativity" card, then the center of the universe is everywhere, which means it is on Earth as much as it is on Pluto.

For me, what is literal in the Bible is to love your enemies, the existence of God, and many other things. But Genesis—I don’t think Genesis makes sense when taken literally. Yet, it makes total sense when taken as a metaphor. Not just that, there are deep meanings in those metaphors that we have still not begun to unfold.

The Tower of Babel... what an excellent metaphor for what is happening now. If people understand what it means, we would not be in the situation we are in now. But if you think it literally means not to build towers, then obviously, you are missing the core of the message.
 
Certainly, the center of the solar system is not the planet Earth.

Anyway, if you want to play the "relativity" card, then the center of the universe is everywhere, which means it is on Earth as much as it is on Pluto.

For me, what is literal in the Bible is to love your enemies, the existence of God, and many other things. But Genesis—I don’t think Genesis makes sense when taken literally. Yet, it makes total sense when taken as a metaphor. Not just that, there are deep meanings in those metaphors that we have still not begun to unfold.

The Tower of Babel... what an excellent metaphor for what is happening now. If people understand what it means, we would not be in the situation we are in now. But if you think it literally means not to build towers, then obviously, you are missing the core of the message.
Hey LOOKING

Your understanding is noted. For me, the historical record of life and events upon the earth that He has revealed to us in His written word, is believed to be true in its basic understanding.
 
For me, what is literal in the Bible is
"For me?" 2 Peter 1:20 "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,"

Scripture is not "up for grabs". There is EVIDENCE of what is what.
to love your enemies, the existence of God, and many other things. But Genesis—I don’t think Genesis makes sense when taken literally.
Why not? Why not that believing in deep time make much less sense?. Given that gasoline is still usable and not rendered useless by time, there is nothing beyond blind faith to assume millions years is real.

Distant starlight? The light rides the CMB to get to us. Or quantum something something. Or time mechanics. God could have created "time fields" where time blows by faster, that would explain why stars that supposedly last gargantuan lengths of time blow up and we see the starlight when the universe itself is only 6k +/- years old.

Or mabye God delivers the light right to us. Mabye us seeing starlight in real time is not because of physics, but because of a Supernatural Act of God.

Oil and organic-based fuel resources were made in mass quantities by the Flood.
When something dies, it decays and or gets consumed by consumers and decomposers. It does not magically lie around for oodles of time to become fuel.
Bones lie on the ground, and need to be buried to fossilize. The bones would not lay around for oodles of time completely unntouched.
The naturalistic story is way too wishy washy and all chance thrown things together. THe Genesis TRUTH (not allegory) is much more cohesive, coherent, explainable, and very cause-and-effect.

Yet, it makes total sense when taken as a metaphor.
It makes sense that God wastes words? That He establishes His reputation as a simply fanciful storyteller, instead of establishing it as an All-Wise, Omniscient, Trustworthy source of all information, be it about the past, present, or future??? History can be used as allegory like a hammer used as a tool or as a decoration, but allegory cannot be history.

Yes, it definitely makes sense (not!) that God wishes to woo us with a story instead of establishing Himself to be taken seriously.

If you want a whole race of sentient beings (who you know will one day ask questions about you) to take you very seriously, instead of saying something that means something else, you establish yourself as being very RELIABLE. Right?

Imagine being a witness to a crime, then talking about a criminal. The judge makes a decision, but right before he does you tell him its an allegory. Really? The judge could get pretty upset about your allegory that was not made clear to be an allegory til later.

The allegory view of Genesis was not adopted til later, plus it comes not from the text but , largely, people's desire to please the new Status Quo of the naturalistic, anti-God regime that has infected science-related things/people/places/organizations with scientISM.
Not just that, there are deep meanings in those metaphors that we have still not begun to unfold.
"There's many deep metaphors in your reply. You mean none of what you say, you are talking about a whale and its journey in the ocean. Your posting about "the earth not the center of solar system" is actually just referring to how a naracisstic whale should discover he isnt the center, he needs to help other whales too." - using your view on your reply!

See how flimsy, floppy, the allegory view is? It holds like a mesh submarine in water.
The virgin birth also makes "no sense" to those who are asleep. I don't see Genesis Allegorizers trying to morph THAT into an allegory. Why all the inconsistency? If we accept Jesus' Miracles as literal in the NT, why aren't we accepting His Miracles in Genesis?? (Jesus is God)

If you dont believe God about the history in Genesis, why do we take any of the rest to be true, and not simply more and more stories?

Genesis allegorizers are supremely inconsistent and have a really tough time. Contrast that to YEC. Why is this so if Genesis is, as an objective FACT, an allegory??

John 3:12
The Tower of Babel... what an excellent metaphor for what is happening now.
Can be USED as a metaphor: Yes.
It IS a metaphor: No.

The fact we have different languages today smashes "Babel was a metaphor" into a bunch of tiny bits. Around 7,000+/- bits.

That explains why we have language groups. The languages formed at the Babel event did not magically form on their own over spans of time. God is the One Who made the first new languages.

God confused the languages. After that , those languages were eventually edited , merged, or even lost over the centuries.


If people understand what it means, we would not be in the situation we are in now.
Now there's something i can agree on. Fun fact: IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS!!
Genesis allegorizers 'don't see what's in front of them'.
But if you think it literally means not to build towers, then obviously, you are missing the core of the message.
Obviously. It means what it says. One lesson we learn from this History is that pridefulness is a sin.

Perhaps you don't get what the literal view is? No YEC ive ever heard of gets "dont build towers" from that account.
 





 
Look, if you persist in a literal interpretation of the Bible, you are not going to help your community invite more people. Instead, you will confine it within a disconnected view of reality that has little to do with Christianity or the truth.

If you dont believe God about the history in Genesis, why do we take any of the rest to be true, and not simply more and more stories?

I believe in the history of Genesis, but I interpret it differently than you. I don’t think it means there is a literal vault supporting waters above our heads, among other things.

A metaphor does not mean the message is false—it means we are not capable of understanding it in its literal form. This doesn’t mean the message isn’t real; it means it is impossible for us to fully grasp.

For example, children can’t fully understand why they shouldn’t trust strangers, but they can understand the moral of Little Red Riding Hood. Similarly, not everyboy can understand why any form of knowledge is limited by language, but everybody can understand the story of the Tower of Babel, right?

Is Little Red Riding Hood false? Not really, because the reality behind it is more terrible, more dangerous, and more real than the metaphor itself. But children cannot grasp the terrible reality behind it; they lack the experience or knowledge, so they require a simplified version.
The same happens with the Bible: it is a simplification adapted to our understanding, but the truth behind it is far greater than anyone can imagine.

In other words, the Bible refers to a reality we cannot fully comprehend, so a literal reading is almost certainly incorrect. We have the duty to investigate throughout our lives the true meaning of these words.

Scripture is not "up for grabs". There is EVIDENCE of what is what.
And who reveals this meaning? The Holy Spirit—not your intellect. You don't interpret the Bible; the Holy Spirit is the only one who can provide the true meaning of these words.

A literal interpretation is still an interpretation, nothing more. When you think that six days are literally six days, this is also a form of interpretation that you construct in your head. In doing so, you are following your intellect, not the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit does not contradict reason but complements it, which is entirely different.

Why not? Why not that believing in deep time make much less sense?
And I repeat: where is the literal vault that supports the waters above? Or is this a metaphor referring to the atmosphere and the cosmos above it?

Come on, man. To what extent will you persist in this contradictory interpretation? Even you admit that Genesis uses metaphors when speaking about the vault that supports the waters above, because everyone, including you, sees there is no vault above us supporting or separating waters.

It makes sense that God wastes words?

Jesus spoke in parables deliberately throughout His mission. Metaphors are not a way of wasting words; on the contrary, they are an effective way to lead people to a deeper meaning beyond a simple, materialistic or superficial interpretation.

What you are doing by taking a literal interpretation of the bible is reducing the message of the bible to what you can understand in spite of increasing your understanding to what the bible is saying. This is like following the easy way which never leads to the straight path.

Matthew 7:13

For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
 
Hi KV-44-v1
Distant starlight? The light rides the CMB to get to us.
There was a post before about the earth not being the center of the universe. But I think we should think about that using the evidence that the Scriptures give us. According to the Scriptures, the earth was the first heavenly body created. Everything was earth centric. Then we're told that God created the sun, moon and stars. So what if God cast them out 'from' the central point of the earth. That would easily explain why we can see the stars. As they moved out from the earth the light was left as they scattered outward. And there is some scientific evidence that the universe is expanding. So, it isn't completely unbelievable that the earth is the center of the universe and the stars are still spreading out from the earth where they were flung into the heavens by God.

Just sayin'.