Evolution The Other Religion 2013

[agua.]

All I can say about fulfilled prophecy are three things. 1 No original documents of the bible exist today to verify that such prophectic claims have not been written after the events. 2 Not all prophetic claims in the bible are accurate. 3 All prophectic claims remain localized to the bible.

Ok I'll look at your objections.

1. For the OT the main copies we have are the Septuagint ~ 200 BC, The Dead Sea Scrolls pre 100ad ( translated by the Qumran Jewish community. Jewish historians are traditionally extremely fastidious with record keeping ) and the Masoretic text, dating around 800 A.D. All these texts are almost identical ( 95% ) which is testament to the Jewish tradition in record keeping. The NT has well over 10,000 manuscripts which have 99% commonality and many references can be verified with other non Biblical texts eg Clement. Many Bible prophecies are post 100 AD ( eg. the resettlement of Israel in 1948 as per Amos and Ezekiel ) and some are yet to be fulfilled eg. Israel will face war against many nations at some stage. Remember also the most important prophecy is the return of Jesus for His Bride and the judgment of the wicked which some think is fast approaching.

2. Can you list the inaccurate Bible prophecies please ?

3. The Bible has 66 different books written by ~ 40 different people over about 1500 years. This would indicate like prophecies from different writers fulfilled is more than coincidence. Also let's look at a couple of prophecies supported by external sources. Isaiah prophesied ( Isaiah 44 ) 150 years before Cyrus was born the things he would do for Yahweh and Alexander is prophesied by Daniel ( Daniel 8 ) as the "goat from the west". You can research Cyrus and Alexander in secular writings. I think we can also agree that Jesus is an historical figure found extraBiblical . Do you accept He is ?

 

[r3alchild]

,

Yes the prophecies are the biggest challenge for many leaving faith. I have found many answers to how prophecy could have been constructed without any fore knowledge and realize that such things can have alternative answers.

As you will noticed I changed my post, this was only 5-10 minutes after my old post. l dont know how you saw it but I realized that It would be sparking a debate and that I was going to have to spend hours going back and forth. l apologize for talking impulsively next time ill sit on my thoughts a little longer.

 

[agua.]

As you will noticed I changed my post, this was only 5-10 minutes after my old post. l dont know how you saw it butI realized that It would be sparking a debate. But what I have said here reflects a better attitude on my position about prophecy.

Ah oky doky no worries. If you have any specific reasons you don't accept Bible prophecies I'd like to hear them but that's up to you.

God bless

 

[r3alchild]

Ah oky doky no worries. If you have any specific reasons you don't accept Bible prophecies I'd like to hear them but that's up to you.

God bless

I guess the big reason would be how most prophets of god today dont seem to get much of anything right and what they do get right is so vague that it just ends up that their prophecies fit into any event. Also knowing how cold reading works creates a very big question mark over those kinds of people who make predictions about people, places and events.

 

[agua.]

I guess the big reason would be how most prophets of god today dont seem to get much of anything right and what they do get right is so vague that it just ends up that their prophecies just fit into any event. Also knowing how cold reading works creates a very big question mark over those kinds of people who make predictions about people, places and events.

If a prophet gets anything wrong it isn't from God. I know what you mean though many people these days appoint themselves as prophets and get a kick out of tossing words around like confetti. Don't blame God for false prophets mate. Yeah words of wisdom can fall into the same category at times.

 

[r3alchild]

33 thousand diffrent christian sects all screaming at each other that only they have exclusive rights over the truth while saying the rest will go to hell. In the end I just got sick of it all.

 

[turnorburn]

r3alchild said:

33 thousand diffrent christian sects all screaming at each other that only they have exclusive rights over the truth while saying the rest will go to hell. In the end I just got sick of it all.

So does Jesus, was there something specific that got you in a dither..

tob

 

[duari91]

33 thousand diffrent christian sects all screaming at each other that only they have exclusive rights over the truth while saying the rest will go to hell. In the end I just got sick of it all.

The bold is a little bit misleading.

A Christian believes that Jesus is the Messiah, that he died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead, and that he is the only way to heaven. If you don't at least believe this, you aren't a Christian. I can believe Jesus resurrected in the form of a pony, but that doesn't make me a Christian. I can kick and scream and say I am a Christian, but it still doesn't make me one. So we have to be careful when using those type of statistics, because it doesn't define "Christian." Is it a number of groups who claim to be Christian? Like the Mormans?

 

[Hatuey]

The bold is a little bit misleading.

A Christian believes that Jesus is the Messiah, that he died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead, and that he is the only way to heaven. If you don't at least believe this, you aren't a Christian. I can believe Jesus resurrected in the form of a pony, but that doesn't make me a Christian. I can kick and scream and say I am a Christian, but it still doesn't make me one. So we have to be careful when using those type of statistics, because it doesn't define "Christian." Is it a number of groups who claim to be Christian? Like the Mormans?

What makes you a Christian is your faith that you are one. Faith is the key. Similarly, if someone believes that they love someone, then how can anyone say that they don't? Faith is the key. Until there is some way to test a person's salvation with verifiable, measurable results, you must rely upon faith--the faith of the individual making the claim. After all, you can't prove that god didn't speak to them and tell them that whatever they think or believe, they really are a Christian. Abraham had faith that god instructed him to kill his son, and the bible considers that to be great faith. So even if a Christian said that god told him to kill people, you can't tell him that god didn't say that or that that person isn't a Christian. Faith is the key. I try to believe Muslims and Christians because of their sincere faith. There's no way to prove them wrong, and they both say that faith validates their perspective.

 

[r3alchild]

The bold is a little bit misleading.

A Christian believes that Jesus is the Messiah, that he died on the cross for our sins, rose from the dead, and that he is the only way to heaven. If you don't at least believe this, you aren't a Christian. I can believe Jesus resurrected in the form of a pony, but that doesn't make me a Christian. I can kick and scream and say I am a Christian, but it still doesn't make me one. So we have to be careful when using those type of statistics, because it doesn't define "Christian." Is it a number of groups who claim to be Christian? Like the Mormans?

Ok cut the stack down to 1000.

 

[duari91]

What makes you a Christian is your faith that you are one. Faith is the key. Similarly, if someone believes that they love someone, then how can anyone say that they don't? Faith is the key. Until there is some way to test a person's salvation with verifiable, measurable results, you must rely upon faith--the faith of the individual making the claim. After all, you can't prove that god didn't speak to them and tell them that whatever they think or believe, they really are a Christian. Abraham had faith that god instructed him to kill his son, and the bible considers that to be great faith. So even if a Christian said that god told him to kill people, you can't tell him that god didn't say that or that that person isn't a Christian. Faith is the key. I try to believe Muslims and Christians because of their sincere faith. There's no way to prove them wrong, and they both say that faith validates their perspective.

No. What makes me a Christian is my faith in Jesus Christ. That he lived a perfect life, died for our sins, and rose again. Any other belief (or a skewed version of Jesus) would void the classification of being a Christian.

Yes, we can. God has given us the instruction to determine whether or not someone is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Similarly, if their beliefs contradict the word of God, we can also eliminate whatever revelation that they are having. For example, if someone comes along and says "God told me to hate my neighbor", I can discount that by pointing the scripture in the bible that tells us to love our neighbor. Muslims kill their neighbor because thats what the religion commands them to do. The simple historical inaccuracies disqualify it from being a revelation of God (simply because God can't be imperfect).

Ok cut the stack down to 1000.

I don't deny the fact that there are a lot of denominations. However; my point is that they all hold the same belief of Jesus (as I represented above). That is what makes them Christians. Disagreements of small details in other portions of the Bible do not determine the ultimate destination of a soul (heaven or hell). If someone comes along with a misrepresentation of Jesus, or what he taught, then that disqualifies them as a Christian. If the slight disagreements within the Christian community is why you left, then we can clear that up and save you really quickly.

 

[r3alchild]

Well how far off track do you have to be? and how can anyone be sure they are on the right track if everything has to be funneled through the lens of feelings and experiences, numerous english translations that differ and millions and millions of teachers who say diffrent things.

 

[duari91]

Well how far off track do you have to be? and how can anyone be sure they are on the right track if everything has to be funneled through the lens of feelings and experiences, numerous english translations that differ and millions and millions of teachers who say diffrent things.

You must meet the basic requirements I specified above to be a Christian. That is the basic track needed to achieve eternal life.

As a Christian, I believe that God is powerful enough to preserve his word among various translations. We weren't surprised when they found that our modern translations matched the old texts. Someone can rewrite a document and mislead many, but God will ultimately pass his word to each generation. If a teacher is teaching you an anti-biblical doctrine, then they are a wolf in sheep's clothing. However; teaching someone a slightly different understanding of the Bible will not lead you to lose the faith.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

What makes you a Christian is your faith that you are one. Faith is the key. Similarly, if someone believes that they love someone, then how can anyone say that they don't? Faith is the key. Until there is some way to test a person's salvation with verifiable, measurable results, you must rely upon faith--the faith of the individual making the claim. After all, you can't prove that god didn't speak to them and tell them that whatever they think or believe, they really are a Christian. Abraham had faith that god instructed him to kill his son, and the bible considers that to be great faith. So even if a Christian said that god told him to kill people, you can't tell him that god didn't say that or that that person isn't a Christian. Faith is the key. I try to believe Muslims and Christians because of their sincere faith. There's no way to prove them wrong, and they both say that faith validates their perspective.

Don't forget, Muhammed himself later says in the Koran that most of the stuff he was given was from SATAN. That alone should discredit the entire thing, aside from all the other junk.

 

[turnorburn]

This is @ Hatuey concerning faith. i had this discussion with an Atheist friend some time ago and gave him some verses to help explain the kind of faith necessary to have eternal life.. Its not the kind of faith as in "keep the faith baby" its God given faith you see faith is a gift from God let him explain..

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

You see Hatuey God gave Peter the necessary faith to believe in Jesus...

so I'll say to you as i said to my friend, do you want this faith?



tob

 

[Hatuey]

Yes, we can. God has given us the instruction to determine whether or not someone is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Similarly, if their beliefs contradict the word of God, we can also eliminate whatever revelation that they are having. For example, if someone comes along and says "God told me to hate my neighbor", I can discount that by pointing the scripture in the bible that tells us to love our neighbor. Muslims kill their neighbor because thats what the religion commands them to do. The simple historical inaccuracies disqualify it from being a revelation of God (simply because God can't be imperfect).

For you, you mean. What I mean is that the other person can simply claim to be a Christian by his own interpretation of the scriptures exactly as you are claiming he isn't by your own interpretation. It's not like Calculus or molecular bonds where one of you can prove which of you is or isn't a Christian. It comes down to the individual faith. Yours and his.

As long as his faith remains solid, and he calls himself a Christian, you have to respect that label for the same reason that you call all people "muslim" who claim to be muslim. You don't check to see if it's a Sikh or Sunni, first. And again, god called Abraham's faith "great" because he determined to kill his son on god's word, so you can't say that a person is doing something ungodly if they are claiming as Abraham did---that they do what they do because god told them to and they have perfect faith.

 

[Hatuey]

This is @ Hatuey concerning faith. i had this discussion with an Atheist friend some time ago and gave him some verses to help explain the kind of faith necessary to have eternal life..
so I'll say to you as i said to my friend, do you want this faith?

I appreciate your concern. I would need to be convinced of the sort of god offering it and its intentions with ALL of humanity before I could tell you if I wanted its faith.

 

[turnorburn]

That's what my Atheist friend said... Did you know that everyone has that same fear "need to be convinced" starting with Adam.. have a look at Adam's responce after he became aware he'd sinned..

Genesis 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

We are all sinners my friend saved by the grace of God..

tob

 

[turnorburn]

You said your church doesn't have an opinion on evolution when your new pope said this..

Does the new Pope believe in evolution?

The answer is actually yes. And in fact, the Roman Catholic Church has recognized Darwinian evolution for the past 60 years. It openly rejects Intelligent Design and Young Earth Creationism saying that it "pretends to be science." But the Church’s unique take on the theory, what it calls theistic evolution, still shows that Catholics have largely missed the point.

http://io9.com/does-the-new-pope-believe-in-evolution-453874239

So you see your speaking out of fear nothing more nothing less, and yes the scriptures back up everything having to do with the 6 day creation all depends on which side of the fence your on.. and who your listening to..

tob

 

[Rick W]

7) Do not post opinions of another member's claim of Christian faith. (ToS 2.4)
Publicly judging someone as not being a Christian and/or not following Christ unless they themselves claim not be a Christian is disallowed. That's between them and the Lord. This includes judgments against collective beliefs or groups in general.

"This includes judgments against collective beliefs or groups in general."

There are evolutionists and there are creationists that uphold the the Christian faith on this board. The ToS addresses judgments from either side concerning the other. Derogatory, demeaning or otherwise insulting opinions toward either group is a direct affront and/or attack on the beliefs of those members who hold to those beliefs.

Debate is fine, no problem there, but posting belittling opinions toward either group is clearly a violation of the Terms of Service.
And yes, BOTH sides of the fence are guilty and I believe we've been letting it go too long. It would be appreciated if consideration was given to the membership of this site no matter what group they belong to.