Evolution The Other Religion 2013

[Rick W]

No, we were talking about proof/evidence of the historicity of Christ. Nothing about relationship.

Again, 'heart' isn't a term that does us much good, here. It only works on people in your club who all agree on a mystical definition of a piece of jargon.

The reason I disbelieve in your god is the same reason I disbelieve other gods. I remain unconvinced by any evidence that has been offered to me, and the same results can be attained through certain chemicals or obsessions or hobbies, and I would never say that just because a person is happy with a particular philosophy that it must therefore be true.

"Again, 'heart' isn't a term that does us much good, here."

The heart has everything to do with it. The rejection thereof assures no relationship can or ever will exist. How can I have a relationship with my wife if I reject the heart? Not going to happen.

 

[Rick W]

I've said this before not in this thread though.

Observation:
Every time Spock had an "emotional confrontation" his "logic" went out the window. :D

 

[Hatuey]

But the conclusions made based on undeniable evidence aren't necessarily undeniable themselves. I can present undeniable evidence and more than one conclusion can be made. Science generates data. The scientist generates the conclusion. Science itself makes no conclusions.
Many times throughout history evidence was declared but the conclusions were off target.

No, science cannot prove the relationship with Christ. And relying on it to do so is an exercise in futility.

Correct. The issue is when the evidence becomes "overwhelming" such as in the case of evolution. It is just ridiculous to deny it if you are in possession of the scientific evidence from so many different disciplines and origins. Evolution is not PROVED, but the evidence cannot be structured in any way that would cause it to be considered "false" in any way.

No, science cannot prove any relationship with beings not proven to exist in the first place. You are correct. The scientific evidence we do posses does not indicate that such a relationship is likely or possible.

 

[Hatuey]

"Again, 'heart' isn't a term that does us much good, here."

The heart has everything to do with it. The rejection thereof assures no relationship can or ever will exist. How can I have a relationship with my wife if I reject the heart? Not going to happen.

Because you're talking metaphysically, and not about something that can be discussed with any facts. Again, I would use different terminology to state similar things about people I love.

 

[Rick W]

Rebranding or changing the terminology or attempting to change a definition as I've known some to do doesn't degrade the issue. I'm quite sure you know what I'm talking about when I say "the heart".

It's the sole gist of the matter, the target, the basis, the core. Without it there's no reason for God to exist. You can't strip away the heart and continue discussion as if the topic is the same. Without the heart there's really nothing left. Nothing.

 

[Hatuey]

Rebranding or changing the terminology or attempting to change a definition as I've known some to do doesn't degrade the issue. I'm quite sure you know what I'm talking about when I say "the heart".

It's the sole gist of the matter, the target, the basis, the core. Without it there's no reason for God to exist. You can't strip away the heart and continue discussion as if the topic is the same. Without the heart there's really nothing left. Nothing.

I'm not sure why you insist that more is required. I do not believe in anything "eternal" or "spiritual" within a human being or any other living thing. In my view, there is no soul or spirit at all. You loving someone is merely a commitment to their well-being because of your past and continued experience with them. That intention is in no way diminished by there not being an actual "soul" or whatever.

 

[Hatuey]

I've said this before not in this thread though.

Observation:
Every time Spock had an "emotional confrontation" his "logic" went out the window. :biggrin

My most meaningful memories are usually when logic went out the window, but that doesn't mean that I don't recognize its superiority in dealing with reality.

 

[Rick W]

The hearts of men IS the reality. Men fight, die, love, work, lead, follow all because of what's in their heart. And yes, believe. Therein lies the basis, the sole premise of what is believed.
Look toward the heart for God. For God is looking toward the same.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

I've said this before not in this thread though.

Observation:
Every time Spock had an "emotional confrontation" his "logic" went out the window. :biggrin

I agree. Once I encountered God, I burst into tears and wept in His presence out of His wonderful love for me. There went any foolish arguments I had.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

Hatuey, as I said before, the fact that you're here means you're seeking Him. Otherwise you would not set foot here.

However, the Pharisees also came to observe Jesus, and despite the fact that He raised men from the dead, restored crippled limbs, healed diseases and sicknesses of every kind and so on, many of them still would not believe in Him, but rather, looked for a way to murder Him.
So just because you see the power of God doesn't mean you'll believe in Him. It all boils down to opening your heart to Him.
Jesus did not say, "Behold, I stand at the door of every man's mind and knock...." He said HEART, and if you let Him in, He will sup with you. He meets with you in your heart.
If you know anything of how the body of man functions, or how birth happens, or the order and structure of plants and so on, there is no way you could actually arrive at the conclusion that all this happened by accident (aside from all the other holes in evolution).

You're here to come to KNOW Jesus for the very first time I believe. Just open the door. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Do not harden your heart today as the voice of the Lord is speaking to you - the day of salvation is today, and God the Father will receive you, just come. I make my final entreaty to you, as if Christ were here speaking to you now directly. His arms are open.

 

[Rick W]

I agree. Once I encountered God, I burst into tears and wept in His presence out of His wonderful love for me. There went any foolish arguments I had.

Same thing happened to me.

Might be a bit off topic but I can see why the full presence of God cannot be witnessed and still remain alive. The physical body could not endure that much love. It's quite overpowering even the little I experienced.

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

He is just so good. And I have tasted and seen. Interesting that the word for taste in that verse is the same as what a baby does, by putting things in their mouth to find out if they are good or not, which fits in with coming to Him as a little child; for then we shall SEE the Kingdom of God. Jesus already said that He would come visit us and abide in us with the Father in John 14 if we love Him, which is to say to walk in the commandment of love He's just so GOOD!

 

[r3alchild]

I can see the case with many of you, your reasons for accepting jesus is purely exeprienced based. I only make note of this because you seem to act oblivious to the fact that right now someone whos praying to a diffrent god is having those same experiences you claim as proof of your faith.

 

[Hatuey]

He is just so good. And I have tasted and seen. Interesting that the word for taste in that verse is the same as what a baby does, by putting things in their mouth to find out if they are good or not, which fits in with coming to Him as a little child; for then we shall SEE the Kingdom of God. Jesus already said that He would come visit us and abide in us with the Father in John 14 if we love Him, which is to say to walk in the commandment of love He's just so GOOD!

Curse, I feel like I'm in a time warp when you post. Are you me twenty-five years ago?????

 

[Hatuey]

I can see the case with many of you, your reasons for accepting jesus is purely exeprienced based. I only make note of this because you seem to act oblivious to the fact that right now someone whos praying to a diffrent god is having those same experiences you claim as proof of your faith.

It's necessary. All believers MUST make appeals to personal experiential phenomena and the same reasoning that other believers of other gods make because no believer of any god has anything else. Dogma and faith are used where proven principles and fact cannot be demonstrated.

 

[Hatuey]

The hearts of men IS the reality. Men fight, die, love, work, lead, follow all because of what's in their heart. And yes, believe. Therein lies the basis, the sole premise of what is believed.
Look toward the heart for God. For God is looking toward the same.

I would use a more specific and meaningful word than "heart." Perhaps in the sentence above, I would use the word "convictions." In other cases where the word "heart" is used, I would use a different word. I need to work with more specialized words than "heart." Too broad and vague to be anything more than platitude....in my view.

 

[agua.]

I can see the case with many of you, your reasons for accepting jesus is purely exeprienced based. I only make note of this because you seem to act oblivious to the fact that right now someone whos praying to a diffrent god is having those same experiences you claim as proof of your faith.

Gday R3alchlid,

All Christians have experiential evidence during and after coming to Jesus but there's also other evidences that can be found if you search. Have you investigated the prophetical claims made in the Bible ?

http://www.reasons.org/articles/art...ecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

Also it's interesting to investigate the mention of ancient historical figures in the Bible eg. Alexander ( goat from the west ) , Cyrus etc

 

[TheCurseoftheRodain]

Curse, I feel like I'm in a time warp when you post. Are you me twenty-five years ago?????

No, I am YOU, as you could be today. Come back to your first love. He's waiting, and time is running out.

 

[r3alchild]

Gday R3alchlid,

All Christians have experiential evidence during and after coming to Jesus but there's also other evidences that can be found if you search. Have you investigated the prophetical claims made in the Bible ?

http://www.reasons.org/articles/art...ecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

Also it's interesting to investigate the mention of ancient historical figures in the Bible eg. Alexander ( goat from the west ) , Cyrus etc

Yes the prophecies are the biggest challenge for many leaving faith. I have found many answers to how prophecy could have been constructed without any fore knowledge and realize that such things can have alternative answers.

 

[r3alchild]

No, I am YOU, as you could be today. Come back to your first love. He's waiting, and time is running out.

What you both said kinda works both ways.