Bible Study FAITH, And the Knowledge of God's Righteousness

[ezrider]

We each find ourselves in our own vessels, adrift upon the sea. And when the winds blow we are tossed to and fro. Now some have learned to stay the winds, for they have brought Christ into their vessel with them, and there they find peace and calm in what was a stormy sea. Many are content to just sit in their boat and ride out the storm with Jesus by their side. But for some, Jesus calls them to come forth, and to join Him upon the waters. To step out of the boat in Faith, and to walk upon the water. Peter, in this exercise, learned that he must keep his eyes on Christ, lest he begin to sink, and to reach out for the safety of his boat.

.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It was a one time blood sacrifice with eternal working. But once it's work is done, it gives way to the Spirit.

John explains to us how the blood keeps on cleansing us when we sin:
"if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7 NASB)
Those who walk in the light, not the darkness, always have the blood of Christ to keep them cleansed when they sin. John says so.

once you are dead to sin, what more can that covering provide for you? Does a dead body once it has entered the grave require washing?

Jesus explained that someone who has already had a bath only need wash his feet (John 13:10 NASB).
The washing of the body signifies being sanctified unto salvation through faith in Christ. The washing of the feet signifies the forgiveness of sin through the blood that the washed saint commits in his spiritual walk.

The body being dead to sin does not mean it doesn't sin anymore. As blood bought, born again Christians we spend a lifetime learning that we don't have to sin anymore because it's power over us has been defeated. And all along the way through various trials, temptations, and weaknesses, the blood of Christ continues to wash our feet for all the times we fail in our walk.

In the law it is written that you shall not eat the blood

This signified that the law could not cleanse a person's conscience. It could only wash the outer man.
Meanwhile, the blood is consumed in this New Covenant, cleansing a man through and through, inside and out, making him a new creation.

You have made the claim in this thread that you keep the law love your neighbor. Are you a hypocrite? Do you commit murder? If you say No, then are you a Liar?

Of course I have loved my neighbor as myself.
If I did not, I would not be born again.
If you have not loved your neighbor as yourself, you are not born again either:

"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

"14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:14-15 NASB)

So, are you telling me that you, too, do not practice righteousness and are, therefore, not born again and do not have eternal life?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We each find ourselves in our own vessels, adrift upon the sea. And when the winds blow we are tossed to and fro.

Not me, anymore.
I learned about three years into my Christian walk that the truth of being a new creation that walks according to God's love is the anchor that keeps us from being blown about by every wind of doctrine that comes along. The Christian experience is ALL about how you treat people:

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

The only faith that matters is the faith that finds it's expression in love for others--God's kind of love, not the world's kind. God's love in our actions shows that we are 'ok' with God and have nothing to worry about concerning the coming Judgment:

"God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. " (1 John 4:16-18 NASB)

Set the course of your Christian life according to the compass of living out God's love toward others and you will never lose your way, and you will never be unsettled and steered wrong by various doctrines and beliefs. You will be at peace with God. And your heart will swell with joy and the hope of things to come without fear of Judgment.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Not me, anymore.
I learned about three years into my Christian walk that the truth of being a new creation that walks according to God's love is the anchor that keeps us from being blown about by every wind of doctrine that comes along. The Christian experience is ALL about how you treat people:

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

The only faith that matters is the faith that finds it's expression in love for others--God's kind of love, not the world's kind. God's love in our actions shows that we are 'ok' with God and have nothing to worry about concerning the coming Judgment:

"God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. " (1 John 4:16-18 NASB)

Set the course of your Christian life according to the compass of living out God's love toward others and you will never lose your way, and you will never be unsettled and steered wrong by various doctrines and beliefs. You will be at peace with God. And your heart will swell with joy and the hope of things to come without fear of Judgment.

Thanks Jethro, I was going to reply to that post, but was not sure how to put it. Good Scripture reference.

 

[ezrider]

Of course I have loved my neighbor as myself.
If I did not, I would not be born again.
If you have not loved your neighbor as yourself, you are not born again either:

"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

Do you love all your neighbors equally? How do you love your neighbor when his dog keeps you up all night barking, and he lets his dog crap in your yard with out cleaning it up? How do you love your neighbor who steals your wifi for his internet access? Or your newspaper if you still get one of those? When your neighbor has wronged you, How do you love him???????

.

 

[ezrider]

So, are you telling me that you, too, do not practice righteousness and are, therefore, not born again and do not have eternal life?

I know that any work I might practice in the flesh is not accepted in God's eyes. He has chosen to created me with sin and evil present within my flesh? Who am I that I should question the way the potter has created his lump of clay. So no, any work of the flesh that I might practice, holds no righteousness for me. But then again, somewhere in there, is the actual point of this thread if you chose to look for it.

So, you say you are born again, that you are dead to the flesh, and that you have eternal life. Would that be correct?

Do you still await the coming of the Lord and the resurrection from the dead?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you love all your neighbors equally? How do you love your neighbor when his dog keeps you up all night barking, and he lets his dog crap in your yard with out cleaning it up? How do you love your neighbor who steals your wifi for his internet access? Or your newspaper if you still get one of those? When your neighbor has wronged you, How do you love him???????

.

If I claim some kind of perfection in my 'law keeping' you and smaller will jump down my throat for thinking I don't sin. And when I say I sometimes 'keep' the law I'm told that means I'm not keeping the law at all. I can't win with you guys. It reminds me of when I used to witness to unbelievers.......and that's all I'm going to say about that.

 

[ezrider]

We each find ourselves in our own vessels, adrift upon the sea. And when the winds blow we are tossed to and fro. Now some have learned to stay the winds, for they have brought Christ into their vessel with them, and there they find peace and calm in what was a stormy sea. Many are content to just sit in their boat and ride out the storm with Jesus by their side. But for some, Jesus calls them to come forth, and to join Him upon the waters. To step out of the boat in Faith, and to walk upon the water. Peter, in this exercise, learned that he must keep his eyes on Christ, lest he begin to sink, and to reach out for the safety of his boat.

.

We each find ourselves in our own vessels, adrift upon the sea. And when the winds blow we are tossed to and fro.
.

Not me, anymore.
I learned about three years into my Christian walk that the truth of being a new creation that walks according to God's love is the anchor that keeps us from being blown about by every wind of doctrine that comes along. The Christian experience is ALL about how you treat people:

Great for you. But why did you cut off my comment at the to an fro, ansd not continue on with the thought that I was trying to convey. Are we trying to have a conversation, or are you just trying to pick and challenge things that I have said so you can talk about what you want to talk about, without actual addressing the though I am conveying.

So Great. You are no longer tossed to and fro. The question is, are you content to sit there in the boat and ride out the storm with Jesus by side? Or do you have the Faith to get out of the boat and join him upon the waters?

.

 

[ezrider]

If I claim some kind of perfection in my 'law keeping' you and smaller will jump down my throat for thinking I don't sin. And when I say I sometimes 'keep' the law I'm told that means I'm not keeping the law at all. I can't win with you guys. It reminds me of when I used to witness to unbelievers.......and that's all I'm going to say about that.

It a simply answer to a simple question Jethro. When your neighbor has wronged you, HOW DO YOU LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR???

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know that any work I might practice in the flesh is not accepted in God's eyes.

Think again.
You're righteousness better be manifesting in your works. If it's not, that means you are simply not born again and do not have the righteousness that comes by faith in the forgiveness of God that you think you have:

"17But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him " (1 John 3:17-19 NASB)

"14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? " (James 2:14-16 NASB)

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

So, you say you are born again, that you are dead to the flesh, and that you have eternal life. Would that be correct?

Yep.
"3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3 NASB)

Do you still await the coming of the Lord and the resurrection from the dead?

Oh, yeah!

"2Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." (1 John 3:2-3 NASB)

"our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory" (Philippians 3:20-21 NASB)

"having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it." (Romans 8:23-25 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It a simply answer to a simple question Jethro. When your neighbor has wronged you, HOW DO YOU LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR???

Like this...

"14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord. 20“BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, ANDIF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOUWILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.” 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:14-21 NASB capitals in original)

"10Love does no wrong to a neighbor" (Romans 13:10 NASB)

 

[ezrider]

Think again.
You're righteousness better be manifesting in your works. If it's not, that means you are simply not born again and do not have that righteousness:

"17But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him " (1 John 3:17-19 NASB)

"14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? " (James 2:14-16 NASB)

"The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)


Yep.
"3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3 NASB)



Oh, yeah.

"2Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." (1 John 3:2-3 NASB)

"our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory" (Philippians 3:20-21 NASB)

"having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it." (Romans 8:23-25 NASB)

Now you have claimed that you have eternal life, where you answered "yup" but then you said you are still awaiting the resurrection from the dead, "Oh Yeah". How can you have eternal life if you have not yet been resurrected from the dead?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Or do you have the Faith to get out of the boat and join him upon the waters?

Trust me, I'm doing the impossible.
So many of those stubborn sinful characteristics that don't go out except by the Spirit of God are in my rear view mirror.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now you have claimed that you have eternal life, where you answered "yup" but then you said you are still awaiting the resurrection from the dead, "Oh Yeah". How can you have eternal life if you have not yet been resurrected from the dead?

I have a down payment now via a deposit of the Holy Spirit.
I get the fullness at the resurrection.

 

[ezrider]

Like this...

"14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord. 20“BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, ANDIF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOUWILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.” 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:14-21 NASB capitals in original)

"10Love does no wrong to a neighbor" (Romans 13:10 NASB)

Can't you ever answer with a simple word from your heart. I'm try to have a conversation with Jethro, but all you answer with is scripture. That does not tell me how you actually apply the scripture of which you just quoted.


So, in order to drag you along just a bit further. When your neighbor or your brother has sinned a sin against you, when do you forgive him? Do you wait for him to first apologies before you offer your forgiveness????

 

[ezrider]

I have a down payment now via a deposit of the Holy Spirit.
I get the fullness at the resurrection.

So you only have the promise of eternal life, but you do not actually have eternal life? Is that the desire to continue confessing the sins of dead works, so you can keep yourself clean while holding on to that promise?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you only have the promise of eternal life, but you do not actually have eternal life?

I have eternal life now:
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5: 12-13 NASB)

I have a deposit of the Spirit--the essence of eternal life--right now. I get the remainder of it in it's fullness at the resurrection.

When your neighbor or your brother has sinned a sin against you, when do you forgive him? Do you wait for him to first apologies before you offer your forgiveness????

No, because that would be the equivalent of holding a grudge, which we are not to do:
18“ ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone" (Leviticus 19:18 NASB)

 

[ezrider]

I have eternal life now:
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5: 12-13 NASB)

No. You read a line out of a book, and then claim it for yourself without understanding. Jesus is the Resurrection. He who was the son has the resurrection to eternal life. Perhaps you await the resurrection unto death?

 

[ezrider]

So Great. You are no longer tossed to and fro. The question is, are you content to sit there in the boat and ride out the storm with Jesus by side? Or do you have the Faith to get out of the boat and join him upon the waters?

Trust me, I'm doing the impossible.

You may be doing the impossible. But the question is are you doing that which is possible. And by that I mean that which is possible when you walk by faith. Those sin characteristics you speak of, they come by knowledge of sin by the law, not by faith. But the Faith I speak of when I ask do you have the faith to get out of the boat and join him on the waters, I do not see from you. By appearances, you seem to be more comfortable sitting in the boat waiting on the resurrection, but the FAITH to join him upon the water, I wonder if you even understand?

In much of this conversation, I have asked you numerous questions, that you haven't been able to answer in your own words and your own understanding. Instead, you quote a scripture as if that is you providing your own understanding. You don't seem capable of expressing the word that rests upon your heart, or instead you keep that word hidden in your and then use the words of the scriptures as a substitute. That is what I am speaking of when I say you seem to be waiting in the comfort of the boat as opposed walking according to FAITH, and join him upon the waters.

That is the FAITH the I am speaking of. It is the Faith the Paul spoke of. It is the Faith Jesus spoke of. It is the Faith that Moses spoke of. You don't need to quote the scriptures, But the word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart. That Is the word of Faith. Not the words of the scriptures.

Romans 10:5-8
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above; Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Deuteronomy 30:11-13
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


So step out of the boat Jethro and try that which is possible. Put down the scriptures, and share the word that is in your mouth and in your heart. Then you shall know FAITH.

.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those sin characteristics you speak of, they come by knowledge of sin by the law, not by faith.

But the power to overcome sinful characteristics comes by faith. Faith that comes by the word of God, which includes the OT scriptures. As a born again believer, the commands of God, many of which are reiterated in the NT, inspire faith in me to uphold them. Unlike the unbeliever, in whom the commands of God stir up and arouse sin. Why? Because their flesh is still the commanding force present in their lives. It has not been cut away by a circumcision of the Spirit. But the Spirit is the commanding force present in the believer's life and has circumcised the flesh for them.

But the Faith I speak of when I ask do you have the faith to get out of the boat and join him on the waters, I do not see from you. By appearances, you seem to be more comfortable sitting in the boat waiting on the resurrection, but the FAITH to join him upon the water, I wonder if you even understand?

It's amazing how hyper-grace adherents are quick to call the church judgmental to protect their sin rationalized lives, and then turn right around and point the pointy finger and insist the church does not keep God's commands. Hypocrisy is probably the single most prevalent characteristic of everything liberal in Western religion and politics.

In much of this conversation, I have asked you numerous questions, that you haven't been able to answer in your own words and your own understanding. Instead, you quote a scripture as if that is you providing your own understanding. You don't seem capable of expressing the word that rests upon your heart, or instead you keep that word hidden in your and then use the words of the scriptures as a substitute.

Anybody who's been in on-line forums for even a little while knows you're damned if you don't use scripture, and you're damned when you do. It's a no-win. When someone has it made up in their mind that they're going to resist the truth, it doesn't matter if you use the scriptures, or don't use the scriptures, they're going to criticize you anyway.

‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’ (Matthew 11:17 NASB)

That is the FAITH the I am speaking of. It is the Faith the Paul spoke of. It is the Faith Jesus spoke of. It is the Faith that Moses spoke of. You don't need to quote the scriptures, But the word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart. That Is the word of Faith. Not the words of the scriptures.

The problem is your 'word of faith' directly nullifies and contradicts the written word.
God does not speak anything that contradicts his own written word.

Deuteronomy 30:11-13

For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Lol, look at verse 10 immediately prior to your scriptural quote above that says what the commandment 'which I command thee this day' that is 'nigh unto thee, in they mouth, and in they heart, that thou mayest do it' is....

10if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul." (Deuteronomy 30:10 NASB bold and underline mine)

It's the written Law of Moses.
But you keep tearing down the law in favor of some kind of word in the heart that is different than the written word. And I think you're doing that because the agenda here is to rationalize unrepentant, ongoing sin in the person who claims to be a Christian. IOW, you are defending the fundamental agenda of the hyper-grace movement.

That's what people do who don't want to submit to God's righteous requirements (or who think they can't)....they denigrate the written word of God and lift up a supposedly higher 'spiritual' word that, not surprisingly, doesn't include prohibitions against things like drunkenness, homosexuality, adultery, pornography, and so on, or at least makes those things of non import and utterly inconsequential in the matter of salvation.