Bible Study FAITH, And the Knowledge of God's Righteousness

[Douglas Summers]

we can not have eternal life with out the blood AND NOR CAN we have eternal life with out the resurrection yes all this equals Grace but one has to have the right ingredients to have this Grace. it is a package deal made at Calvary. there is no wonder so many folks are confused .to much strange fire theology

You would be surprised at how many do not understand that it is the resurrection that secures our eternal state. It was the Fathers approval of all that Christ finished on the cross. I have had many a Christians tell me that the cross was all that was needed., But without the resurrection, we would still be in our sins.(1 Cor. 15:12-19)

 

[ezra]

You would be surprised at how many do not understand that it is the resurrection that secures our eternal state. It was the Fathers approval of all that Christ finished on the cross. I have had many a Christians tell me that the cross was all that was needed., But without the resurrection, we would still be in our sins.(1 Cor. 15:12-19)

the cross is only the payment for our sins... the resurrection romans 8 : 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.just a thought before i hit the sack .everybody likes to wear the cross but how many of us bear our own cross.. i think in our churches beside the cross we should ahve a empty tomb.. with a sign below it HE AINT HERE

 

[ezrider]

The author is not saying we don't need a sacrifice of blood in this New Covenant. In fact, he says quite the opposite: "without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness"-Hebrews 9:22 NASB.

You have said that you keep the Law of Love your neighbor as yourself. Then you tried to clarify that statement by saying WHEN you keep the law of love your neighbor. By saying WHEN, then we must assume there are time that you don't (and the scriptures would agree with this analysis).

So during one of those time when you do not love your neighbor as yourself, and you have sinned a sin against your neighbor, are you required to shed blood before there can be forgiveness?

 

[ezrider]

Christ's sacrifice is always there to deal with the uncleanness of subsequent sin for the born again believer. And it is continually secured through our continuing faith in that Sacrifice.

Yes, but how we apply that sacrifice matters much. Do we look to His Blood to continue to COVER our sins according to obedience unto the law? OR, Do we look to His Blood to enter into our death with Him through His Crucifixion, where we have been set free from sin and death. If you are free from sin and death, then why do you still need the covering of Blood for Death? Don't you know that we are given a different covering, after that death has been swallowed up in victory?

If you are dead to the flesh with Christ, then for you, can you say that death has been swallowed up in victory?

 

[ezrider]

No hard time for me. I know exactly what's going on inside of me. I shared the experience quite clearly.
I suspect what is making what I say seem hard is you can not relate to the experience, perhaps?

If we were both to attend a football game, each being a fan of the opposing team; then it could be said that we both watched the same game. But me being a fan of one team concentrated more on my teams performance. You on the other hand concentrated on your teams performance. With 11 guys on offense and 11 guys on defense, there are plenty of match-ups to watch. While we are watching the same game, we often are watching different plays. We rely on replays to see what we missed.

Some people don't care about the teams, but they love the game. They pour over film, watching replay after replay, looking for the outstanding plays and performances to share the replay with others, so that they might be able to see that which they missed. I mean, who watches the center position to determine who is the all-star?

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[ezrider]

Could it be that instead of people having some measure of victory over sin, they have crafted a gospel that rationalizes sin in a person. This seems to be the motivation behind the various hyper-grace beliefs. They don't experience victory over sin so they change the gospel to suit that defeat.

If they have not experience the victory over sin, then they then to cover their sins under the blood of Christ, and they use that covering to hide from the Light.

But if they have experienced the victory over sin, then they would know they no longer need a covering for their sins, and they can walk before the Lord in FAITH with their sins exposed before the Light. For they have received a different covering.

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[Jethro Bodine]

Never, not one single time in all of human history, has the evil present with man, the indwelling sin, obeyed a single commandment. Romans 7:17-21.

No, not one time has this ever happened.

IF anyone other than God in Christ Himself "obeyed" any command, they did so just as Paul did, with "evil present" with them.

This is the basis of the Gospel of Grace and Mercy in Christ.



I wish I could speak more frankly about how your position "really" treats neighbors but that much truth doesn't fly. Indwelling sin and evil present gets very riled up, sometimes even violent, when exposed and shaken.

I find it amazing that you would say you have never obeyed a single commandment of God.

"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

"14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:14-15 NASB)

The person who does not love is not born again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...if they have experienced the victory over sin, then they would know they no longer need a covering for their sins, and they can walk before the Lord in FAITH with their sins exposed before the Light. For they have received a different covering.

John explains how the cleansing of the blood of Jesus never stops for the person living in the light. Being in the light is the very equivalent of being cleansed by the blood, not a dismissal of the blood:

"if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7 NASB bold mine)


The very reason we are saved is because we are always being cleansed by the blood through Christ's never ending intercessory ministry in heaven:

"23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:23,25 NASB italics in original, bold mine)

All born again people continue to have the cleansing blood applied to them through the continuing ministry of Christ in heaven. We don't graduate from the blood to another covering.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So during one of those time when you do not love your neighbor as yourself, and you have sinned a sin against your neighbor, are you required to shed blood before there can be forgiveness?

No, because the blood of Christ is continuing to minister on my behalf on the altar in heaven. I always have the cleansing covering of the blood interceding for me in heaven (as long as I have faith). Unlike the old covenant where the blood had to be shed over and over again and reapplied to the altar.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You would be surprised at how many do not understand that it is the resurrection that secures our eternal state. It was the Fathers approval of all that Christ finished on the cross. I have had many a Christians tell me that the cross was all that was needed., But without the resurrection, we would still be in our sins.(1 Cor. 15:12-19)

Yes.
Jesus emerging alive from his Priestly work indicates his sacrifice and ministry were acceptable to the Father, and as a result the glory of the Lord (the Holy Spirit) has appeared to all the people.

"after making the sin offering and the burnt offering and the peace offerings. 23Moses and Aaron went into the tent of meeting. When they came out (having not died) and blessed the people, the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people." (Leviticus 9:22-23 NASB bold mine)

Nadab and Abihu failed in their priestly duties, and died:

"1Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD." (Leviticus 10:1-2 NASB)

If Jesus had failed in his duties as High Priest he would be dead, not alive forever more, and God would not have sent the Holy Spirit into the world. The Holy Spirit is our confirmation that Jesus has been accepted by the Father and that atonement has been successfully made on our behalf in heaven.

 

[smaller]

I find it amazing that you would say you have never obeyed a single commandment of God.

I find it not only amazing, but quite amusing that any believer claims their indwelling sin and evil present with them is faithful, obedient, legal, under grace or whatever, and think such claims are preposterous lies on the surface. Romans 7:17-21.

The person who does not love is not born again.

Your claim is that your positions love, yet your positions condemn, openly, at every opportunity, and do the opposite of the claim. And even claims condemnation is love.

It's just weird Jethro. Sorry.

 

[Douglas Summers]

the cross is only the payment for our sins... the resurrection romans 8 : 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.just a thought before i hit the sack .everybody likes to wear the cross but how many of us bear our own cross.. i think in our churches beside the cross we should ahve a empty tomb.. with a sign below it HE AINT HERE

Yes, dying to self.

 

[ezrider]

All born again people continue to have the cleansing blood applied to them through the continuing ministry of Christ in heaven.

Yes, all born again people continue to have the cleansing blood applied to them. It was a one time sacrifice with eternal workings. I am no way denying the work of the Blood of Christ. Just moving on from it. By FAITH, I have found I now longer need to lean upon His Blood for my salvation. Through His blood I came to my salvation. But now that I have found my salvation, I have found His Word and His Promise sufficient for me.

We don't graduate from the blood to another covering.

That's funny. You say we don't graduate, and yet the scriptures infer that the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. But once we have come to the knowledge of Christ, we are no longer under the schoolmaster. Why are we no longer under the schoolmaster (the law)?
BECAUSE WE HAVE GRADUATED.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's funny. You say we don't graduate, and yet the scriptures infer that the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. But once we have come to the knowledge of Christ, we are no longer under the schoolmaster. Why are we no longer under the schoolmaster (the law)?
BECAUSE WE HAVE GRADUATED.

Faith in Jesus' blood is not the law.
Faith is not the tutor that we are no longer under.
Read it:

"23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed"
"25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."
(Galatians 3:23,25 NASB)

Faith and the law are being contrasted in the above verse, not equated. Faith does not release us from faith in the blood. That's ludicrous. Faith releases us from the condemnation of the law (among other things).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I find it not only amazing, but quite amusing that any believer claims their indwelling sin and evil present with them is faithful, obedient, legal, under grace or whatever, and think such claims are preposterous lies on the surface. Romans 7:17-21.

Just to clarify, are you openly admitting that you are not of God, and do not have eternal life, and are not born again since you do not obey the command to love your neighbor as yourself (or any other command) because of indwelling sin?

"10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1 John 3:10 NASB)

"14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:14-15 NASB)

 

[ezrider]

Faith in Jesus' blood is not the law.
Faith is not the tutor that we are no longer under.
Read it:

"23But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed"
"25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."
(Galatians 3:23,25 NASB)

Faith and the law are being contrasted in the above verse, not equated. Faith does not release us from faith in the blood. That's ludicrous. Faith releases us from the condemnation of the law (among other things).

I did not say faith was the tutor, maybe you should go back and read it again. I said the law was our school master, the law was our tutor. When we have come to the knowledge of the Faith of Christ, then we are no longer under the tutor of the law, the school master. When one is going to school and is under the school master they can do one of two things. They can either continue to fail the lessons, or they graduate. You said we don't graduate. The scripture implies otherwise.


Has Death been swallowed up in Victory?

.

 

[ezrider]

If you are dead in Christ, then death has been swallowed up in victory. If death has been swallowed up in victory, then why do need continue apply a covering that kept you from that death?

 

[ezrider]

Hebrews 10:15-18
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I did not say faith was the tutor, maybe you should go back and read it again.

Here is the exchange:

I said:
"We don't graduate from the blood to another covering."

To which you said (bold mine):
"I am no way denying the work of the Blood of Christ. Just moving on from it. By FAITH, I have found I now longer need to lean upon His Blood for my salvation. Through His blood I came to my salvation. But now that I have found my salvation, I have found His Word and His Promise sufficient for me."

You're equating the sacrifice of the blood of Christ with the law. And since you think that's true, you're trying to say Paul said we leave the tutor of the law/blood of Christ behind and move to something else. Not even remotely true. Here again is where John speaks of the continued and ongoing ministry of the blood for the cleansing of unrighteousness for the believer:

"if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7 NASB)

If you leave faith in the blood behind, you will cease to have the benefit of the blood, and you will be lost.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you are dead in Christ, then death has been swallowed up in victory. If death has been swallowed up in victory, then why do need continue apply a covering that kept you from that death?

We are to continue to have faith in the Sacrifice always on the altar in heaven to deal with continued sin.

Hebrews 10:15-18
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Right. The believer does not need to offer any more sacrifice for the sin in his life. The one-time, for all-time Sacrifice is already there on the altar of heaven, continuing to do it's work of forgiveness through our continued faith:

"24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." (Hebrews 9:24-28 NASB)

There is no more offering for sin to be made. The one offering is still on the altar keeping us cleansed as we walk in the light.