Bible Study FAITH, And the Knowledge of God's Righteousness

[Roro1972]

In Matthew 5:17, Jesus is using a different Greek word for 'abolish' than Paul is using for 'abolish' in Ephesians 2:15.
Jesus is speaking of destroying the law--a trampling down of the law, and how he did not come to do that. Paul, on the other hand, is speaking of making the law obsolete and no longer needed to govern one's distance and separation from God and, therefore, sits idly on the sidelines in regard to it's affect on a person.

In Ephesians 2, Paul is explaining how the worship laws that kept the gentiles at a distance from the commonwealth of Israel no longer have any application to gentiles because gentiles in Christ are in effect no longer gentiles that the law should apply to them. Through their faith they now belong to the one new man, and nation, and people of God, the body of Jesus Christ.

Gentiles who come to Christ through faith don't destroy the laws governing who can and can't approach God, and when. What happens is those laws simply do not apply to believing gentiles (and Jews) who have been brought near to God through their faith in Christ. And so it is in that way that the law of Moses governing the relationship between God, the Jews, and gentiles simply have no application any more. They are obsolete. They have been abolished (set aside) as unneeded now. Which is what Christ DID come to do. He broke down the lawful barriers that kept gentiles, and even the Jews to some extent, from having contact with him. But he did not come to destroy those laws.

So, it's not that we who believe break those laws. They just simply don't apply to new creations in Christ who are neither Jew nor gentile, spiritually speaking, in the eyes of God. The law of the veil is a good example. It legislated the distance and separation between the manifest glory and presence of God and the people of God. But by faith in Christ the believer is brought behind the curtain and the law that prevented them from doing that has no affect on them. What application does the law of the veil have to a person who is already behind the curtain through their faith in Christ? None of course. That law has been abolished (set aside) by the new way of faith in Christ to approach God. The old way to approach God (don't go behind the curtain unless you are the High Priest, and only on a specific day) can be set aside (abolished, not destroyed) now.

Thank you for this explanation it just may be what I need on my journey.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Scripture is quite clear that the Righteousness of God is revealed from faith, TO FAITH.

The righteousness that comes from God is the declaration of righteous (justification) that God himself bestows on a person, as opposed to a declaration of righteousness (justification) that comes from the successful completion of righteous work. That's what it means to be righteous (justified) by faith vs. being righteous (justified) by doing the righteous works of the law.

The righteousness that comes by doing the works of the law is a misnomer, because no one can do the righteous requirements of the law so as to be declared righteous by them. That's why a declaration of right standing with God can only come through faith in the forgiveness of God. That's the only way to become righteous--have your unrighteousness taken away through the forgiveness of that unrighteousness.

I think this illustrates pretty clearly the misunderstanding that the church has about the law. That somehow, to simply read the law and seek to do it automatically equates to trying to be justified by the law, as if there is no other legitimate reason to read the law and seek to fulfill it. This sad error of doctrine is what we have inherited from our spirit-less fathers from the 2nd century.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Righteousness of God will only be revealed by His Spirit through faith.

Faith as the way to be made righteous before God is what is revealed in this New Covenant. The Jews erroneously thought doing the righteousness of the law was the way to be made righteous (justified) before God. That is what it means to have a righteousness from God, and what it means to have a righteousness of your own (Romans 9:31-32 NASB). Paul is not speaking about two different righteousness's. He is speaking about an inferior WAY to achieve righteousness vs. the only way to achieve righteousness, faith in God's forgiveness.

Righteousness is righteousness. You either get it from God, through faith in God's forgiveness to wipe away your unrighteousness, or you do the righteous things of the law to earn it. But Paul explains that it is impossible to attain righteousness through doing righteous works of the law because no one keeps the law. The massive error of the church is it has determined that any and all attempts to 'keep' the law of Moses are evil and forbidden because that amounts to nothing less than trying to justify oneself by works of the law. A simple read of the book of James, especially, will show that is ludicrous. James is practically teaching right out of the law and telling the church what is right and what they must do. But the church is sure that is evil and is tantamount to trying to earn one's own salvation. That is ridiculous. But that is what our spirit-less fathers in the early church taught us from about the 2nd century onward.

 

[ezrider]

I need to think on this some. I know 3 or 4 verses says he did abolish the law. Not sure how Im going to sort this out.
thanks

Jesus did not come to abolish the law. He said not one jot nor tittle shall pass, till all things be fulfilled. The Law and the Prophets are very much still in effect. They have made us aware of sin. They have have been our schoolmaster that have brought us to knowledge of Jesus Christ. The law brings us to the knowledge of our unrighteousness, the law brings us to the knowledge of our death.

To fulfill the law is to stand before the law as one who is guilty, to accept the command unto death. For once you are dead to the law, what power can it have over you? When Jesus informs us that he who is guilty of one thing under the law, is guilty of all the law. Then if I am dead because of one law, then I have become dead to them all.

Not all believe they will die, they think Jesus has saved them from their death; HE HAS NOT.
He has saved them from the SECOND DEATH, IF they shall submit to the righteousness of God in Christ.

 

[ezrider]

I think this illustrates pretty clearly the misunderstanding that the church has about the law. That somehow, to simply read the law and seek to do it automatically equates to trying to be justified by the law, as if there is no other legitimate reason to read the law and seek to fulfill it.

Tell me, was there a legitimate reason for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? I've heard this story before.They don't understand: it is a book good for food, it is a book to make one wise. You shall not surely die, for in the day you eat up the book, yours eyes shall be opened to both good and evil. You can can know how to walk righteously before the Lord, you can be like God.

But to continue down this line of reasoning without the firm understanding of the snares and traps the of the law the scripture informs us of tells me you either you ignored the scriptures I posted as part of this OP, or else you disagree with what the scripture teaches us.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

2 Peter 2:19
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Paul give us his sight on the law here:

Romans 7:7-11
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

As the serpent deceived Eve, taking occasion BY the Commandment not to eat. So too does sin. It is meant to deceive you. The strength of sin is the LAW, and it is meant to bring you your death.

 

[GodsGrace]

I need to think on this some. I know 3 or 4 verses says he did abolish the law. Not sure how Im going to sort this out.
thanks

Hi Roro,
Its easy to sort out what you and Jethro are discussing.
Jesus did not come to abolish the law.
What Law?
There were three different types of Law in Judaism:
Civil Law
Ceremonial Law
Moral Law

For example, the worship laws that Jethro Bodine mentioned in Ephesians 2 are Ceremonial Laws and they were indeed abolished in the sense that they were no longer necessary for persons to follow God because they are external practices, which God is not concerned with.

However, Jesus did not abolish the moral law but fulfilled it. In Him we are made righteous before God since He, as our representative, has accomplished what we could not... perfect obedience which is acceptable to God.

In fact, Jesus showed us how demanding God is; our very thoughts could be sinful. God is interested with our internal righteousness - what is not even visible to others. For example,
Mathew 5:28
We are unable to aspire to such heights so Jesus has done this for us.

Im not saying we shouldn't try with the help of the Holy Spirit, just that it is impossible to live a sinless life.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Under the New Covenant we are not "required" to follow the "Law". We have been made free from the law. If we try and follow the law we become servants to law. We are required to walk by Faith, not by knowledge of the law. What this means we shall eventually get to. It does not mean we abandon the knowledge of the law, we have already eaten the fruit of the knowledge of sin and death, there is no turning back. What you decide to do with that knowledge is now up to you. We either take that knowledge and act in the role of the accuser, pointing out and condemning sin in the flesh, showing that we are still the children of wrath. Or we repent of our sin, confess that we have eaten the knowledge of sin and death, and now don't understand what to do with this knowledge.

Why do so many feel the need to sit in judgement over sin in the flesh. Don't they know that God has already judged the word according to the sins of the flesh. It is the sins of the flesh that keeps one blinded to the sin of the spirit, not following the commandment of the Lord to walk by Faith.

Jesus fulfilled the law. He was crucified. Death is the only fulfillment of the law. But we believe that Jesus has conquered death, we believe in the resurrection of Christ, and that if we hold to the Faith first preached, then we have been set free from the power of sin and death.

What you say above represents what I understand to be the difference between living under the Law and living under grace. Or, the old covenant and the new covenant.
Jeremiah 31:33

It is not possible to live under the Law. It is impossible to be so perfect as to please God. Only one was this perfect...God Himself, Jesus.

As far as sitting in judgement, I agree. When one comes to understand the perfection of God and how imperfect he is, he need only to look in the mirror to see a sinner and should thus find it difficult to judge any other sinner.

Wondering

 

[Roro1972]

Hi Roro,
Its easy to sort out what you and Jethro are discussing.
Jesus did not come to abolish the law.
What Law?
There were three different types of Law in Judaism:
Civil Law
Ceremonial Law
Moral Law

For example, the worship laws that Jethro Bodine mentioned in Ephesians 2 are Ceremonial Laws and they were indeed abolished in the sense that they were no longer necessary for persons to follow God because they are external practices, which God is not concerned with.

However, Jesus did not abolish the moral law but fulfilled it. In Him we are made righteous before God since He, as our representative, has accomplished what we could not... perfect obedience which is acceptable to God.

In fact, Jesus showed us how demanding God is; our very thoughts could be sinful. God is interested with our internal righteousness - what is not even visible to others. For example,
Mathew 5:28
We are unable to aspire to such heights so Jesus has done this for us.

Im not saying we shouldn't try with the help of the Holy Spirit, just that it is impossible to live a sinless life.

Wondering

Thanks Wondering, that really helps a dumb old country boy like me sort out some of the things that can be confusing. I can see I have misunderstood what I read now I have a better understanding and can see where I went wrong. You say it is easy but I missed it, thanks for helping me.

 

[ezrider]

Example:
old way: Circumcise the foreskin of the....uh...you know.
new way: Circumcise the influence of the flesh from the heart.

Great example. What does it mean to circumcise the foreskin? What is the act of circumcision?

The act of circumcision was the removal of the foreskin. It was symbolic of removing the covering and walking before the Lord. Adam, with the knowledge he had obtained from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, took to himself a covering and then hid from the presence of the Lord and His commandment unto death. The Law likewise provided for an atonement and the covering of sins.

But under the New Covenant, by my faith in the power of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, I do not need a covering to hide from my sins. I am guilty before the law, and by the law, I am dead to the law. Circumcise the foreskin of your heart. Remove the covering provided by the law, and learn what it means to walk by faith under Grace, with no more offering for your sins.

Remove the covering, circumcise the foreskin of your hearts, and use the knowledge of good and evil that you have obtained from the law and the scriptures to learn to grow in grace, and in the knowledge of the our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:13-18
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


We LOOK to the new heavens and new earth, we do not AWAIT the new heavens and new earth, for the Lord Our Righteousness already dwells there. We are to LOOK to it. That is what we receive by the power of the Holy Spirit when we acknowledge our death under the law and become born again of the Spirit by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Except you be born again, you can NOT SEE the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[ezrider]

Never said evil present/indwelling sin isn't prompted by the law. That's what the law of sin says. That indwelling sin takes the law and causes evil thoughts against same. One of those evil thoughts is the deception of compliance. Another is denial of Gods Laws.

However indwelling sin/evil present approaches Gods Words, it will not and never will produce a 'truthful' conclusion. That much is certain.

Indwelling sin can NOT cause the denial of God's Laws. It is impossible. The STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW (1 Cor 15:56). The deception of sin and the evil thoughts are quite different. They cause one to turn TOWARDS the LAW. They cause one to use the law unlawfully, making themselves a judge of the law, sitting themselves in the seat of Moses. That is the "truthful" conclusion of how sin deceives someone and guides their evil thoughts. The internal evil thoughts cause them to glory in the Law and in the wrath of God. Indwelling sin, except it be dead, will continue to its denial of the power of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the salvation of the Lord.

Indwelling sin/evil present doesn't care to be examined or exposed by the Light of Gods Words. Those internal workings are NOT interested in taking the "RIGHTFUL CONTINUAL CONDEMNATION" that scripture applies and does not REMOVE.

The place of "rightful continual condemnation." I like that phrase. It is quite fitting indeed. But only those who fear death fear that continual condemnation, the condemnation of sin hurled at each other by the ACCUSER and his children, the condemnation of sin by the authority of the law; BUT NOT by the AUTHORITY of THE JUDGE. That is a position that one presumes for themselves, by taking the knowledge of good and evil, by taking the knowledge of the law, the workings of Satan and their internal evil thoughts deceive them into presuming the seat of Moses for themselves.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Except there come a falling away first. The falling away is falling FROM Faith back TO Sin and the works of THE LAW. And why why were we given the Law? So that sin might become exceedingly sinful (Rom 7:13), that the man of sin might be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-10
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.


There is a place where the believer can stand before the Lord in Faith and under Grace with a clear conscience, without the fear of condemnation from sin, where the "rightful continual condemnation" is accepted and laid to rest, in death. So that we who are free from this mystery of iniquity can follow after the Spirit of Christ by the obedience of faith unto righteousness.

 

[ezrider]

The point of it is this. Whether we "look" at the reality of the law of sin stated by the scriptures, the adverse dynamic remains in place, regardless.

Nobody ditches the evil present withIN them by not looking.

You are quite right. Nobody ditches the evil present within them by NOT looking.
BUT, by the same token, nobody ditches the evil present within them BY LOOKING.

So it seems then, If I can't ditch it by not looking, and if I can't ditch it by looking, then it stands to reason that I am stuck with it no matter what. But you see. I am OK with that. That is the way the Lord as chosen to make me, in weakness, that I might know His Glory. Now since I understand and accept that this is the way the Lord has created me, with evil present within my flesh; and because I understand I can not "ditch" the evil present within my flesh, for it is a part of me, then I must find a way to come to terms with the evil present within my flesh. That is where the Spirit of Christ and the salvation of the Lord comes in.

Because evil remains present within my flesh am left with a choice. While you might call it "not looking," I would simply tell you that it is a choice to not glorify sin and evil. I have walked that path before, I already posses the knowledge of evil. But now my path seeks the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit ONLY.

 

[ezrider]

As far as sitting in judgement, I agree. When one comes to understand the perfection of God and how imperfect he is, he need only to look in the mirror to see a sinner and should thus find it difficult to judge any other sinner.

That is the beginning of wisdom on how to walk under the Grace of the New Covenant; to learn to grown in mercy and grace. To forgive one another, as "I have forgiven you." A believer who applies this wisdom would not play the role of the ACCUSER of sin. Judge not, that you be not judged....

Which brings up something else: As far as sitting in judgement,

I know from some of the other threads you have difficulty in accepting the scripture from the book of Isaiah that says God creates light, and darkness, God creates good, and he creates evil. I believe we too have touched on that particular scripture in the past, and it seems that you have a hard time accepting that God could create evil.

Now I have stated in this thread that we were created in the image of God. We were created with the ability to do evil. What we were NOT CREATED WITH was the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL. It is the knowledge of evil by the Law that deceives us, even into claiming the judgement seat for ourselves. It is the KNOWLEDGE that we have taken for ourselves, that we must come to terms with.


Two questions to see if you can identify evil:
1. Without referencing the Bible or any other "Christian" beliefs, what make homosexuality evil?
2. In the book of Genesis we find the story of Joseph and his brothers. Now in this story his brothers seize Joseph and cast him into a well, and then sold him into slavery. Was this act evil? Or was this act good?

By our own knowledge of good and evil, the natural man would identify this as an act of evil, and rightfully so. BUT, if as the scriptures identify that God used their evil for good, then if you were to suppose yourself to be sitting in the judgement seat, how would you judge this act: Was it good? Or evil?

 

[smaller]

Indwelling sin can NOT cause the denial of God's Laws. It is impossible.

There are factual internal reactions that we all have with indwelling sin and evil present with us. These factors are not cooperators with Gods Words. We can nitpick about what these things do, but they are not cooperative with the Spirit. That is what the law of sin conveys to us. It's not meant to be a pleasant disclosure to us.

The STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW (1 Cor 15:56). The deception of sin and the evil thoughts are quite different. They cause one to turn TOWARDS the LAW.

There is a unique set of "as it is written" reactions that we are shown, in the scriptures, about what these operations of indwelling sin and evil present do. I don't deny the drawing aspect. That is clear in Mark 4:15. The general functions are deception, theft of Word, temptations to do contrary to the laws, adverse to law thoughts as Paul shows us in Romans 7:7-13, destroying, killing. Where there is any law of God, any command, the operations of indwelling sin and evil present RESIST. Call it what we will. The matters are quite real. IF there is love, it will be accompanied by anti-love. Mercy, anti-mercy, forgiveness, anti-forgiveness.

There is a constant inverse/adverse relationship present within us.

They cause one to use the law unlawfully, making themselves a judge of the law, sitting themselves in the seat of Moses. That is the "truthful" conclusion of how sin deceives someone and guides their evil thoughts.

There is nothing wrong with Gods Words of Law. They are spiritual, holy, meant for life, good if used properly. But a host of anti-law matters do come forth from indwelling sin and evil present. Denial of having the conditions, not wanting exposure, personally from that Law, hypocrisy, lies, etc. These are all very real reactions.

The general point is, even if we don't look, the adverse dynamic remains a reality. This Paul points to in Gal. 5:17 when he notes that the Spirit is against and contrary to the flesh. That adverse relationship is real and it never changes for any flesh of persons.

The internal evil thoughts cause them to glory in the Law and in the wrath of God. Indwelling sin, except it be dead, will continue to its denial of the power of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the salvation of the Lord.

Paul never claimed these workings didn't do what they did, even for himself. Quite the opposite. He exposed the reality of it upon himself, in his own flesh. We can point to others. But if we don't understand that the same problems operate in ourselves it's rather pointless.

Paul dragged his own flesh headlong into the disclosures. When we follow him, we'll find out the same matters quite consistently operating.

The place of "rightful continual condemnation." I like that phrase. It is quite fitting indeed. But only those who fear death fear that continual condemnation, the condemnation of sin hurled at each other by the ACCUSER and his children, the condemnation of sin by the authority of the law; BUT NOT by the AUTHORITY of THE JUDGE.

That is the normal reaction, indeed. There is quite a different understanding when we put our own flesh under the light. We understand that the accusations can not be deferred from our own indwelling sin and evil present. What you refer to above is common hypocrisy. We can therefore recognize instantaneously who seeks to defer that exposure to others, and deny it to themselves. If we have been exposed, we know it's source and understand it's not them speaking, but what they deny having themselves. And yes, it is demonic activity speaking hypocrisy and lies from that flesh. It's quite common in religious folk.

That is a position that one presumes for themselves, by taking the knowledge of good and evil, by taking the knowledge of the law, the workings of Satan and their internal evil thoughts deceive them into presuming the seat of Moses for themselves.

The law is no friend of indwelling sin and evil present with anyone. That doesn't mean there are not spiritual matters to be gleaned, applied and lived in from that same law. Romans 13:8-12 is the best example. But we also understand that indwelling sin and evil present can NOT perform that call. So anywhere we see that NOT transpiring, again, we can pinpoint the anti-operation in action.

It's quite fascinating to see these things working out in reality, in real time.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Except there come a falling away first. The falling away is falling FROM Faith back TO Sin and the works of THE LAW. And why why were we given the Law? So that sin might become exceedingly sinful (Rom 7:13), that the man of sin might be revealed.

The "man of sin" assuredly "sits" in the flesh temple, beyond any doubt. Paul gives us a very succinct picture of this for himself in 2 Cor. 12:7

2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

There is a place where the believer can stand before the Lord in Faith and under Grace with a clear conscience, without the fear of condemnation from sin, where the "rightful continual condemnation" is accepted and laid to rest, in death. So that we who are free from this mystery of iniquity can follow after the Spirit of Christ by the obedience of faith unto righteousness.

If we see Paul's exposure, we'll see that there is a line, drawn, to that extension. Rightful condemnation remains upon us all, whether we like it or not.

 

[smaller]

So it seems then, If I can't ditch it by not looking, and if I can't ditch it by looking, then it stands to reason that I am stuck with it no matter what.

Pretty much. Yep. That is the exact ground that brings us to "unmerited Grace" and "Mercy" in Christ. It eliminates ANY notions of "working for our salvation." We are entirely reliant on Him. Especially when we know that things can and do work against us, to that adverse working, by God. This is the source and cause of our tribulations and chastisements. It's the inverse/adverse relationship with the Spirit. And it's quite out of our hands.

But you see. I am OK with that. That is the way the Lord as chosen to make me, in weakness, that I might know His Glory.

Brilliant conclusion.

Now since I understand and accept that this is the way the Lord has created me, with evil present within my flesh; and because I understand I can not "ditch" the evil present within my flesh, for it is a part of me, then I must find a way to come to terms with the evil present within my flesh. That is where the Spirit of Christ and the salvation of the Lord comes in.

If we understand that the line is drawn in the sand, yes. We can not cover the entire package of ourselves. It does very much make us, even forces us into His Mercy in Christ. And we know that it's a two way street. That God can be very UNMERCIFUL to the evil present with us, to drive us, as His children, even moreso into His Mercy.

God Demands His Mercy. And has literally forced us into it by our condition in the flesh. There are no alternatives given.

Because evil remains present within my flesh am left with a choice. While you might call it "not looking," I would simply tell you that it is a choice to not glorify sin and evil. I have walked that path before, I already posses the knowledge of evil. But now my path seeks the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and His Spirit ONLY.

Well, at least you understand. I don't extend the Spiritual things of God to indwelling sin and evil present with me. Nor do I think God is fooled by any attempted coverups. Other than it may provide Him a chuckle.

Psalm 2:4
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

We might even laugh at ourselves from time to time on the same basis.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is the beginning of wisdom on how to walk under the Grace of the New Covenant; to learn to grown in mercy and grace. To forgive one another, as "I have forgiven you." A believer who applies this wisdom would not play the role of the ACCUSER of sin. Judge not, that you be not judged....

Which brings up something else: As far as sitting in judgement,


I know from some of the other threads you have difficulty in accepting the scripture from the book of Isaiah that says God creates light, and darkness, God creates good, and he creates evil. I believe we too have touched on that particular scripture in the past, and it seems that you have a hard time accepting that God could create evil.

Now I have stated in this thread that we were created in the image of God. We were created with the ability to do evil. What we were NOT CREATED WITH was the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL. It is the knowledge of evil by the Law that deceives us, even into claiming the judgement seat for ourselves. It is the KNOWLEDGE that we have taken for ourselves, that we must come to terms with.


Two questions to see if you can identify evil:
1. Without referencing the Bible or any other "Christian" beliefs, what make homosexuality evil?
2. In the book of Genesis we find the story of Joseph and his brothers. Now in this story his brothers seize Joseph and cast him into a well, and then sold him into slavery. Was this act evil? Or was this act good?

By our own knowledge of good and evil, the natural man would identify this as an act of evil, and rightfully so. BUT, if as the scriptures identify that God used their evil for good, then if you were to suppose yourself to be sitting in the judgement seat, how would you judge this act: Was it good? Or evil?

Hi EZ
Yes. I have great difficulty reconciling God's omnipotence and goodness in regard to evil. Dualism rears its ugly head every now and then, but that is no solution because it would detract from God's sovereignty.

As to your questions:

1. I believed in the Natural Law even before I was born again. I don't need the Bible in regard to homosexuality. I regard it as a bad influence to society in general and as a cause of harm.
It goes against natural law. It was never accepted as good by any society in general until we became brainwashed into thinking it's politically correct and a very modern and cool way to think. Families exist for a reason...Procreation assures our survival as a race. Families are made to have common goals and to help each other as they go through the difficulties of life.
So, yes, I'd say that homosexuality per se is not in keeping with natural law.

2. The act of Joseph's brothers was evil.
God, who is sovereign, took that act and worked it for the good..
Only God can sit in judgement in this case. But we cannot say the act was good.
We say that the end does not justify the means.
I'm not sure about this.
I wish someone had killed Hitler in 1935.

Wondering

 

[Jim Parker]

I have great difficulty reconciling God's omnipotence and goodness in regard to evil.

It seems to me to be completely explained by God having given man free will to do His will or to do one's own will.
To do evil is a choice.
To do good is a choice.
There is evil in the world because people choose evil over good.
For God to force everyone to do good would be to reduce mankind to the status of mindless machines. We would, in fact, not do good; they would only do what they were programmed to do as any machine would.
A machine that bakes bread is not morally better than a machine that makes bombs.

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

It seems to me to be completely explained by God having given man free will to do His will or to do one's own will.
To do evil is a choice.
To do good is a choice.
There is evil in the world because people choose evil over good.
For God to force everyone to do good would be to reduce mankind to the status of mindless machines. We would, in fact, not do good; they would only do what they were programmed to do as any machine would.
A machine that bakes bread is not morally better than a machine that makes bombs.

iakov the fool

Yes Jim
I agree.
So are you saying God created all this suffering thrust upon us. Just so we could have a choice?

Then how is He all-good?

Wondering

 

[Roro1972]

Yes Jim
I agree.
So are you saying God created all this suffering thrust upon us. Just so we could have a choice?

Then how is He all-good?

Wondering

God created the evil but he is not thrusting it upon us we are doing the thrusting because He, like Jim said, gave us a choice and much is brought on by unbelievers or our rulers not God.

 

[GodsGrace]

God created the evil but he is not thrusting it upon us we are doing the thrusting because He, like Jim said, gave us a choice and much is brought on by unbelievers or our rulers not God.

Why would a loving God create evil?
Since He must have known how it would affect us...


Wondering

 

[Roro1972]

Why would a loving God create evil?
Since He must have known how it would affect us...


Wondering

I found a verse that says He created evil.
I have found one that says why.
I could only guess that it takes evil to turn some stiff necks.
Pharaoh's neck was pretty stiff, so was mine.