Faith and Works: A delicate balance.

[brakelite2]

This subject of faith/works is so often at the forefront of Christian debate. Some approach through a stance of unacceptable legalism while the other extreme seem so paranoid of being branded as lagalistic they trumpet 'grace grace' and shun works altogether.
What I would like to share, I hope is a balanced scriptural view. Some of the following may come as a surprise to some.

Let us first establish one fact that most agree upon. Works will not save anyone. One of the most quoted verses in scripture: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:9.

So now that that is out of the way, allow me to establish some more relevant truths.

1. Evereone will be judged, including Christians.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

2. Jesus is the Judge, and the Lawgiver, and Lord God Almighty.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Isa. 33:22 For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

Revel 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

3. At His first advent Jesus came to save.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

4. An integral part of the gospel message is that Jesus is coming to judge not only the dead, but also the living at His second coming.

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

2 Tim 4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

5. The judgement at the second coming is an execution of sentence.Thus the pronouncment of guilt or innocence has been made prior to the second coming.

Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 ¶ To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Revel 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Mathew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

6. We are judged by our works.

Eccl. 12:13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

2 Corin. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Revel. 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revel. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

CONCLUSION
Every person who has ever lived on this planet must stand in the court before the Judge of the whole earth, Jesus Christ, God Almighty. Whether they be Christian, Moslem, Athiest, or idolater, all must give an account of their lives to God. At His first advent Jesus came to save, to call people to repentance, to die in our place. He lived the perfect life by faith in His Father. He is our example, to prove that it is possible to overcome by faith. Overcome the flesh, the world, and overcome sin. At His second advent He brings His reward with Him for those who have accepted His call to repentance and trusted in Him for their salvation, and also for those who remain in their sin. That reward is eternal life for those He justified, death for those He condemns. Thus there is of necessity a trial prior to the second coming, that Jesus could execute His sentence justly. Works are an integral part of the judgement. Our proclamation of faith, our profession of belief in God holds no water in court. It is insufficient to produce a decision. There is an old saying: 'If you were charged and arraigned for being a Christian, would there be sufficient evidence to convict you?'
Our works are the evidence of our faith. It is works that reveal whether we have accepted God's gift of salvation by faith. True faith cannot exist without works. Works reveal whether faith is real. Works do not save anyone in the judgement, but the judgement reveals through the works who has truly received Christ and His righteousness. We are judged by our works, not saved by them.
Have you faith? Have you faith to beleive that God can change your heart? Have you the faith to beleive that God can transform you into the image of His Son? Have you the faith to believe that your character and life can be the mirror image of our own Savior? Have you the faith to beleive that God is able to keep His promises?

Rom. 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Eph. 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us–ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power.

Phill. 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
2:12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 ¶ Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Coll. 1:9 ¶ For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


If you have that kind of faith it will be evidenced by your works.
If you have that kind of faith, then eternal life is guaranteed, for "the just shall live by faith."

2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[brakelite2]

We must not be confused either by presuming that the 'works' James is speaking of are 'social good works'. They are rather the works of obedience to God's commandments.
Abraham showed this.

Ge 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.


Gen 26:1 ¶ And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

When Jesus said "if you love Me keep My commandments"(Jn 14:15) this was not a suggestion, but a 'thus saith the Lord' type requirement.In itself, it was a commandment.

When considering the above texts with regards to Abraham it is clear that God fulfilled His promises to Abraham and his children because Abraham spent his entire life serving his Lord and following His commands and keeping His laws.Can you imagine Abraham saying to the Lord aftyer God had commanded him re Isaac; "Lord. You know I believe in you. You know I have faith. I think that is enough. Obedience Lord is legalism isn't it?"

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The above verse is greatly misunderstood, and that misunderstanding has led many to come to some conclusions as to the necessity of obedience that fly in the face of revealed scripture. The person who disobeys and teaches others to do the same will not be in heaven! The verse is saying that those in heaven will be calling such as one least.

It is essential that our lives reflect the profession of our faith.How can it be that a person professing faith in Christ and a hope of eternal life with a holy God could be so presumptiuos to believe that despite scriptures to the contrary, his life has no bearing on his future destiny?
Adam and Eve lost their lives because of disobedience. Could it be that the disobedient regain what Adam and Eve lost?

It is a delicate balance. One end is legalism. Expecting our works justify us.
The other end is illegalism. Expecting our lack of obedience doesn't disqualify us.

In the middle is the Christian. Justified by the blood of Christ. He has the faith necessary to recieve the gift of righteousness that God imparts to him through Christ. And he has the faithfulness to express that righteousness through loving and grateful obedience to a merciful and gracious Father.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God...
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?...
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Drew]

Let us first establish one fact that most agree upon. Works will not save anyone. One of the most quoted verses in scripture: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph. 2:9.

So now that that is out of the way, allow me to establish some more relevant truths.

Those familiar with my views on this will know what's coming and most, if not all, will be rolling their eyes at this moment....

But before I engage in my usual attack on the common view about Eph 2:8-9, let me add that I read your "conclusion" and find myself in substantive agreement with it. So do not take what I am about to write as an argument against the general position you put forth.

I think that it is clear that the "works" in Ephesians 2:8-9 are not "moral good works in general", but rather the works of the Torah - the Law of Moses, "works" which are mostly about demarcating the Jew from his pagan neighbour. To the extent that this view is correct Paul is not, at least here, denying that "good works" are needed for justification. Instead he is saying that justification is not for the Jews alone. I submit that "works" for Paul (in most cases, anyway) refer specifically to the Torah and even more pointedly to those elements of Torah that clearly marked the Jew out from the Gentile - circumcision, Sabbath, and the purity (kosher) laws.

 

[dadof10]

I submit that "works" for Paul (in most cases, anyway) refer specifically to the Torah and even more pointedly to those elements of Torah that clearly marked the Jew out from the Gentile - circumcision, Sabbath, and the purity (kosher) laws.

I agree. It's the only way to reconcile the "faith vs. works" verses with the "judgement" verses spoken of throughout Scripture. Once a person wraps his mind around the fact that the word "works" has a specific meaning, he begins to see that we are justified by faith, not faith alone. That the deeds we do, or refuse to do, actually effect our salvation in a real way. That we can lose that salvation.

 

[Abimael]

So Grace, Faith and Works are all necessary for salvation. Just like God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

 

[brakelite2]

So Grace, Faith and Works are all necessary for salvation. Just like God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

We must be careful when we say 'necessary for salvation'. It must be understood that salvation is comprised of several parts.
Justification The process by which we are proclaimed 'innocent' of all charges against us. Our sin is forgiven, our slates wiped clean. This is accomplished by the efficacy of our Saviours sacrifice at calvary and the shedding of His innocent blood.
sanctificationThe process by which our minds are renewed and conformed into the image of Christ. Our thoughts are directed heavenward, our characters are reformed after the divine character, and our lives bear this out through the fruit of the spirit.
worksAre the evidence of all the above. Our obedience and charity is the proof of our faith. They are the signs that it is indeed the true God, Yahweh, that is sanctifying us. Remember Jesus warning that there will be many who will go to Him in the last day and say Lord, did we not do this and that etc etc.? And His reply was "depart from Me, I never knew you, ye workers of iniquity! "
So what made the difference? They did good works. They called upon the name of the Lord. So where did they go wrong?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Seems to me that these people were doing their own thing.They were calling upon the name of Jesus, but they got the wrong Jesus!!! The real one didn't know them. And though they thought they knew Jesus, they were deceiving themselves.
When confronted by the Jewish council and commanded to cease from preaching the resurrection of Jesus, Ac 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
So many I have noticed quote all manner of councils and ecclesiastical institutions in support of their dogmas and doctrines. But not one or any of these should be accepted as evidence of any part of faith and practice. We must demand a plain "thus saith the Lord" . We must obey God's commandments, and if we allow man to assert his authority over and above the written word of God we are in great danger.
It is so imporatnt to establish and amintain a sound relationship with our Saviour. It is then God who lives in us by His Spirit who does the works through us. We make ourselves available, submitting to Him each day, and earnestly desiring to know His will. Then it is a matter of faith. We trust Him to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think. And the good work that He does in us He will perform it until the day Jesus comes to take us home.

 

[Drew]

Justification The process by which we are proclaimed 'innocent' of all charges against us. Our sin is forgiven, our slates wiped clean. This is accomplished by the efficacy of our Saviours sacrifice at calvary and the shedding of His innocent blood.

I do not think such a take on justification can be made to work with the scriptures. I think what you say here is not so much wrong as it is an oversimplification. In Romans 2 we are told something clearly and repeatedly - there will be a future judgement at which all humans will appear and at which some will be "justified" - declared to be in the right - and others condemned:

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

When will they be declared righteous? At the time of this future judgement. And yet I also agree with what you post - that we are declared to be in the right in the present.

We need to take the entire sweep of Scripture into account. I believe that the picture we get for justification can be summarized thus: There will be a works-based judgement in the future at which some will be justified (this is the message of Romans 2). Yet in the present we can be assured of a favourable outcome of that judgement if we accept Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. The future verdict can indeed be correctly anticipated in the present precisely because of the gift of the Spirit who acts in the life of the believer to manifest the works that will commend them to eternal life at the Romans 2 judgement. Let no one misrepresent what I am saying: that we can be declared righteous at the end is assured fully by what happened at the Cross.

 

[lovely]

I think we can just say that faith and works should not be separated. If you preach one apart from the other, then the results are awful and make the Gospel message void of any real power to change one to Christ's image. Grace is just part of all of it period. The Lord bless you.

 

[dadof10]

worksAre the evidence of all the above. Our obedience and charity is the proof of our faith. They are the signs that it is indeed the true God, .

I don't see this definition of "works" in Scripture, that it is "evidence" of our salvation. The word means primarily works of the Jewish law. I could be wrong, but I find nowhere in Scripture where the word "works" is used to denote "obedience" or "charity".

 

[brakelite2]

Justification The process by which we are proclaimed 'innocent' of all charges against us. Our sin is forgiven, our slates wiped clean. This is accomplished by the efficacy of our Saviours sacrifice at calvary and the shedding of His innocent blood.

I do not think such a take on justification can be made to work with the scriptures. I think what you say here is not so much wrong as it is an oversimplification.

Hi Drew, of course you are correct. I was trying to simplify it as much as possible. There indeed will come a time when, as Daniel says: Da 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


I think we are entirely entitled to claim to be justified now however. But we must continue in faith and faithfulness to remain justified. Unlike so many, I do not accept the OSAS stand, for I am convinced our ultimate salvation is conditional. Just as Adam and Eve's stay in the garden was conditional. Just as Israel's entrance into the promised land was conditional. Just as their stay in the promised land was conditional.
Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

What steps does Paul take to get from here, above, to here, below?.

Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

How do we answer to this apparent contradiction?

 

[lovely]

dad, these are works that denote charity, hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, and obeying the love commands, of course. I do not believe that these are Torah (letter of the law), but I believe that they are beyond Torah (spirit of the law)...the law that is written on our hearts. I think that there are other Scriptures that speak to this, but they do not actually contain the words, "good works". The Lord bless you this evening.


(To the Gentile believers at Ephesus, comparing our natures before and after Christ)
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(From the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount)
Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

(Paul's instruction on the behavior of women in the church.)
1 Timothy 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.


(Qualifications for widows who could be taken into the number of the church.)
1Timothy 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

(Instructions to the rich, and the gain of Godliness)
1Timothy 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

 

[lovely]

Oh, and I forgot Matthew 25. The difference between the sheep and the goats was their faith works. Again, the Lord bless you.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[brakelite2]

worksAre the evidence of all the above. Our obedience and charity is the proof of our faith. They are the signs that it is indeed the true God, .

I don't see this definition of "works" in Scripture, that it is "evidence" of our salvation. The word means primarily works of the Jewish law. I could be wrong, but I find nowhere in Scripture where the word "works" is used to denote "obedience" or "charity".

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Here in this passage from James, I believe are examples of both.
Abraham's 'work' was to offer Isaac. This work was one of obedience. It was therefore obedience in Abraham's case that gave evidence of his faith, believing that "God Himself shall provide a Lamb for the sacrifice". But faith in God's provision was insufficient to establish Abraham's justification. He was justified, according to James, because he obeyed, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Rahab also was justified by works. This work was not one of obedience, but one of charity. It was also born out of a respectful fear of the God of Israel, of whom she had no doubt heard. She was saved from the destruction of the city and actually became a forbear of the Saviour.

 

[dadof10]

dad, these are works that denote charity, hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, and obeying the love commands, of course.

Of course you're right, duh. : There are many places in Scripture that use the word "works" with the word "good" and mean charity or obedience. I shouldn't write when tired and in a hurry.

The word "works", when used in the "faith vs. works" verses, isn't used to denote anything but the Jewish Law, as far as I know. "Good works" or anything that means good deeds done in faith, like charity or obedience, is never pitted against faith anywhere in Scripture.

That's what I meant, sorry.

Oh, and I forgot Matthew 25. The difference between the sheep and the goats was their faith works. Again, the Lord bless you.

By "faith works" do you mean good deeds done in faith by a believer?

God bless you, too

Mark

 

[lovely]

I do, I mean a love obedience, and a growing in faith obedience that produces fruit. I think that the love commands are the foundation of all we do in Christ, but we are certainly supposed to be doing things outside of ordinances. There are many commands in the Word of God for the NT church, and the gentile believer. God expects our lives to be lights, and glorify Him, and so obedience to instructions in righteousness matters. If we claim faith, but are not walking in obedience to Jesus, then we are still practicing dead works, from which we have been freed. James' point is if our works are dead, then so is our faith, because faith is transforming in it's nature. You desire to be like Jesus, trust Him with your life, and He conforms you to His image.

If we obey Torah (or practice outward works apart from sincere faith), trying to earn our way to Heaven, then we are guilty of self-righteousness and have not put on Christ...we think we can obey the Jewish Law (or the Sunday School law) on our own, and we reject our need of the cross. Works done apart from the transforming work of the Holy Spirit are self-righteous, and they actually lead to a situation where the traditions of men transgress God's laws. Why, because they fail to transform us to His image. It's what Jesus condemned, the cleaning the outside of the cup and not the inside. These people, because they are doing good works, and Torah works, apart from putting on Christ will also be judged by this law, and suffer the curse of the law. The are essentially Tares imo, and have not the Spirit in them.

If we obey Ultra-Torah, because we love Jesus an we obey His commands, and instructions, from the Sermon on the Mount, then we are allowing the Holy Spirit to work through our lives and change us with God's glory into the image of Christ. Keeping our tongues from evil (obedience out of love of Christ) and then speaking encouraging words (faith works). Forgiving our brother (obedience out of a love of Christ) bringing him into our home and honoring him as our guest (faith works). This is part of our new nature in Christ, because we have been freed from sin, and we have been freed from the curse of the law. We are all at different levels of growth, and from different back grounds, and so these things will be different in each of us, but the love will be there...love of God with all, and one another. So, they know us by our love, but love is also an action...like faith. Faith is belief that is put into action in the form of trusting your life to God. It's not just a statement, and a sinner's prayer. How can one produce fruit if they stop there? It is being given over to the will of God. Turning from dead works, or evil, and toward good works in Christ.

I know, I'm chatty this morning. The Lord bless you, dad.

 

[dadof10]

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Here in this passage from James, I believe are examples of both.
Abraham's 'work' was to offer Isaac. This work was one of obedience. It was therefore obedience in Abraham's case that gave evidence of his faith, believing that "God Himself shall provide a Lamb for the sacrifice". But faith in God's provision was insufficient to establish Abraham's justification. He was justified, according to James, because he obeyed, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Rahab also was justified by works. This work was not one of obedience, but one of charity. It was also born out of a respectful fear of the God of Israel, of whom she had no doubt heard. She was saved from the destruction of the city and actually became a forbear of the Saviour.

I agree with your take. Obedience is necessary for salvation. If Abraham and Rahab had not acted, they would not (ostensibly) have been justified, no matter how much faith they had.

I think these verses point to the fact that our works do not merely "show" we are justified, they actually effect our justification.

 

[dadof10]

I do, I mean a love obedience, and a growing in faith obedience that produces fruit. I think that the love commands are the foundation of all we do in Christ, but we are certainly supposed to be doing things outside of ordinances. There are many commands in the Word of God for the NT church, and the gentile believer. God expects our lives to be lights, and glorify Him, and so obedience to instructions in righteousness matters. If we claim faith, but are not walking in obedience to Jesus, then we are still practicing dead works, from which we have been freed. James' point is if our works are dead, then so is our faith, because faith is transforming in it's nature. You desire to be like Jesus, trust Him with your life, and He conforms you to His image.

If we obey Torah (or practice outward works apart from sincere faith), trying to earn our way to Heaven, then we are guilty of self-righteousness and have not put on Christ...we think we can obey the Jewish Law (or the Sunday School law) on our own, and we reject our need of the cross. Works done apart from the transforming work of the Holy Spirit are self-righteous, and they actually lead to a situation where the traditions of men transgress God's laws. Why, because they fail to transform us to His image. It's what Jesus condemned, the cleaning the outside of the cup and not the inside. These people, because they are doing good works, and Torah works, apart from putting on Christ will also be judged by this law, and suffer the curse of the law. The are essentially Tares imo, and have not the Spirit in them.

If we obey Ultra-Torah, because we love Jesus an we obey His commands, and instructions, from the Sermon on the Mount, then we are allowing the Holy Spirit to work through our lives and change us with God's glory into the image of Christ. Keeping our tongues from evil (obedience out of love of Christ) and then speaking encouraging words (faith works). Forgiving our brother (obedience out of a love of Christ) bringing him into our home and honoring him as our guest (faith works). This is part of our new nature in Christ, because we have been freed from sin, and we have been freed from the curse of the law. We are all at different levels of growth, and from different back grounds, and so these things will be different in each of us, but the love will be there...love of God with all, and one another. So, they know us by our love, but love is also an action...like faith. Faith is belief that is put into action in the form of trusting your life to God. It's not just a statement, and a sinner's prayer. How can one produce fruit if they stop there? It is being given over to the will of God. Turning from dead works, or evil, and toward good works in Christ.

I know, I'm chatty this morning. The Lord bless you, dad.

Lovely,

I think I agree with most of the above. Paul was reacting to the "Judiazers" who thought the "Law" saved them. It doesn't, neither does any other "self-righteous" law. We are justified by Grace alone. Paul, in the "faith vs. works" verses, is not refering to "good works" that, according to James, DO justify. It is not by faith alone.

I think it's possible (though I don't know for sure) that James was responding to some in the early Church who held the "faith alone" position, as Paul was reacting to the "works alone" position. Many things in the Letters were reactions or responses to doctrinal errors. Just a thought.

Do you think that our obedience/disobedience to Christ's commands actually, in a real way, effects our salvation for either good or bad, or do you think we are saved by faith alone whether we obey or not?

God bless you too, and Go Rams.

Mark

 

[MarkT]

Remember the godless can do good works too but it is God working in us and through us that makes the work good; not what we would consider good or what the world considers good and not that we are good. They asked Jesus, "what must we do, to be doing the works of God?", and Jesus answered, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." John 6:28 So belief is the work of God. It's not a co-operation where God is working with us to do what we think is good. It's God working in us to do his will, which is good. We are servants doing God's work; believing and building and growing and sustaining and encouraging and planting and feeding and watering.

 

[lovely]

Lovely,

I think I agree with most of the above. Paul was reacting to the "Judiazers" who thought the "Law" saved them. It doesn't, neither does any other "self-righteous" law. We are justified by Grace alone. Paul, in the "faith vs. works" verses, is not refering to "good works" that, according to James, DO justify. It is not by faith alone.

I think it's possible (though I don't know for sure) that James was responding to some in the early Church who held the "faith alone" position, as Paul was reacting to the "works alone" position. Many things in the Letters were reactions or responses to doctrinal errors. Just a thought.

Do you think that our obedience/disobedience to Christ's commands actually, in a real way, effects our salvation for either good or bad, or do you think we are saved by faith alone whether we obey or not?

God bless you too, and Go Rams.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Let me answer your second question first. I believe that we are saved by the grace of God, through faith (which is also given by the grace of God), and that this is all a work of the Holy Spirit. A rebirth according to John 3. This earnest belief is not just lip service, it is actual belief that changes the way one thinks and acts. That's why I find it hard to separate faith and works. I think they are both a product of the Holy Spirit's work in us.

In my mind, you will live according to what you believe. Basically, if the Holy Spirit is not in us, then there is no genuine heart obedience...the outside is clean, but it's not in Christ, and so the inside is left putrid. If we have the Holy Spirit, then we will eventually come to a heart obedience...it may not look as good as those who clean the outside, or come as quickly, but the inside is spotless because Jesus cleaned it with His blood. Obedience is important, and trial, because they build faith and produce fruit in us. I think obedience is key to overcoming basically, and I think that those who have the Holy Spirit will be changed, and grow in obedience. Those sheep, they feasted on the Bread of Life, Christ, looked to God, and they were changed to His image...healing the sick, caring for the poor, etc. They weren't even aware of all that they did, it was just part of their new nature in Christ, and nature of loving obedience. Jesus told them to enter into His rest.

I find it hard to break down anymore, not because I don't understand basic theology, but because God is far more beautiful and complex than something man can devise in a book. I know we have to communicate, but most of the time it all seems to fall way too short because there is just layers and layers of Truth still to get to. We have a relationship with Him, and it's not a forumla, you know? The Word of God is powerful, and man can not relate that power, but it will change us.

I hope this answers your questions, Mark.

Oh Yeah, Go Rams...and Cards! :-D

The Lord bless you, Tina

 

[dadof10]

Remember the godless can do good works too but it is God working in us and through us that makes the work good; not what we would consider good or what the world considers good and not that we are good.

All good works must be done in faith. The "godless" good works can not justify.

It's not a co-operation where God is working with us to do what we think is good. It's God working in us to do his will, which is good.

What if we refuse to obey? Will this actually effect our salvation?