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Faith v. Logic

StoveBolts said:
Time exists regardless of how we define it...

We define items and put them in these little boxes so that we can use them to support other thoughts that we have.

Answer me these questions.
1. Can you go back in time?
2. Can you go forward in time?
3. Can we change time past?
4. Can we change time future?

An honest assesment of these questions leaves these logical conclusions.
A. Only now truly exists.
B. Only our view of time past can be altered, not time past itself.
C. Only our anticipation of time future can be altered, not future time itself.
Click to expand...

1. If you traveled at the speed of light - yes, but that's impossible as mass would increase to infinity.
2. We go forward in time as it passes.
3. and 4. English please.

Yes, time exists regardless of how we define it, but it's in our best interest to define it as we couldn't base our arguments on flawed definitions...
 
StoveBolts said:
Answer me these questions.
1. Can you go back in time?
2. Can you go forward in time?
3. Can we change time past?
4. Can we change time future?

An honest assesment of these questions leaves these logical conclusions.
A. Only now truly exists.
B. Only our view of time past can be altered, not time past itself.
C. Only our anticipation of time future can be altered, not future time itself.
Click to expand...
The way I see it is that we are back in time and forward in time. I don't think we can use knowledge of the future to affect the past, but I have no proof that it is impossible.

I see the universe like a book, where each page represents time. The characters are all through the book. You can pick it up and start anywhere and it is "now" to them. Jump ahead and it is "now" to them. In a sense, I think "now" is an illusion of time.
 
Quath said:
I see the universe like a book, where each page represents time. The characters are all through the book. You can pick it up and start anywhere and it is "now" to them. Jump ahead and it is "now" to them. In a sense, I think "now" is an illusion of time.
Click to expand...
That’s weird. I thought Christians were the only ones who viewed time in that sense. Where the past, present and future have already happened and we are just circling through the pages in what we call now. As you have explained that every character on every page is thinking that they are living in “nowâ€Â. And they view that God is above the reference of time so He basically can flip through the book and they use this to prove that He knows everything that there is to know. I disagree. To me Past and Future do not entertain an actual existence of their own. I see time as more of a measurement than a dimension.

Second:
Under the International System of Units, the second is currently defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom. This definition refers to a caesium atom at rest at a temperature of 0 K.
Definition obtained from wikipedia.

Not sure where the measuring of a 4th dimension is mentioned in the above definition. Seems to me that it is just keeping track of periods of radiation between transitions and we are using this and measuring the rest of the periods of motion in relativity.

But I wonder if we would both be able to concretely establish our opinions as observable proof unless of course you build me a time machine and place me in a different time dimension than what I am used to. ;)

If anyone can objectively prove that time exists without the "if we could" then I am safe to assume that I can prove to that person objectively that God exists without the "if we could".
 
On Earth, if you wanted to find the distance between two points, you would use the equation

distance^2 = x^2 + y^2 +z^2

No matter what you call x, y and z, distance is always the same. If x is east-west, y is noth-south and z is up-down -- it works. You can change x to be up-down and z to be east-west and it still works. You can skew the grid and say that north is magnetic north. Or north is in the direction of the North Star. This is the invariant of the distance.

Now say that some people thought that east-west should be measuered in miles and north-south/up-down should be measured in kilometers. So you have to do a unit conversion like

distance^2 (in km^2) = (x*k)^2 + y^2 + z^2
where k is the conversion from miles to kilometers.

But by experiment, it was found that distance is variant -- not invariant as we had thought. It is when everything is moving at the same speed, but not when they move at different speeds.

What Einstein discovered is that the real invariant is called the interval where

interval^2 = (t*c*i)^2 + x^2 + y^2 + z^2
where t is time, c is the speed of light (and a conversion from seconds to kilometers), and i is the imaginary number (i^2 = -1)

From here, time is just a geometrical idea where the above equation always is true. You can study time just as you study space.
 
Quath said:
On Earth, if you wanted to find the distance between two points, you would use the equation

distance^2 = x^2 + y^2 +z^2

No matter what you call x, y and z, distance is always the same. If x is east-west, y is noth-south and z is up-down -- it works. You can change x to be up-down and z to be east-west and it still works. You can skew the grid and say that north is magnetic north. Or north is in the direction of the North Star. This is the invariant of the distance.

Now say that some people thought that east-west should be measuered in miles and north-south/up-down should be measured in kilometers. So you have to do a unit conversion like

distance^2 (in km^2) = (x*k)^2 + y^2 + z^2
where k is the conversion from miles to kilometers.

But by experiment, it was found that distance is variant -- not invariant as we had thought. It is when everything is moving at the same speed, but not when they move at different speeds.

What Einstein discovered is that the real invariant is called the interval where

interval^2 = (t*c*i)^2 + x^2 + y^2 + z^2
where t is time, c is the speed of light (and a conversion from seconds to kilometers), and i is the imaginary number (i^2 = -1)

From here, time is just a geometrical idea where the above equation always is true. You can study time just as you study space.
Click to expand...
How would you find the distance between two points in the spirtual realm where time, space, and matter are non-existant?
 
And who says it? You base your life on a book written by unknown men almost 2000 years ago and support it only with blind faith... lol
Click to expand...


MaybeNextTime,

This is now your 2nd warning from me in a week, one more and you're out the door here. You have broken Rules # 1, 5 and 6.
 
Solo said:
How would you find the distance between two points in the spirtual realm where time, space, and matter are non-existant?
Click to expand...
If it follows rules uin the spiritual realm, then science can tackle it. However, it would require some observations first.
 
Quath said:
If it follows rules uin the spiritual realm, then science can tackle it. However, it would require some observations first.
Click to expand...
Exactly, however the spiritual realm is unknown by science as science can only observe the material, created realm. Tis a pity, huh?

If you do not get born again prior to being able to observe the spiritual realm, and you end up separated from God, what will your most poignant memory be?
 
God's timing is just amazing: this CT article @ how Christians can be a counter-culture for good warrants its own thread..

To discern what's important & what's not:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... highlight=

but also fits in so well right here:-

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... 25.36.html

As does today's part of a week's series @ OT prophecies fulfilled in Jesus:-

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus would be betrayed by a close friend...

For Unto Us A Child Is Born...

Prophecy Fulfilled in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth
__________________

Messiah would be betrayed by a close friend

Prophecy:


"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." Psalm 41:9

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Fulfillment:

"But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing."

Luke 22:21-23
__________________

The exact price of His betrayal would be 30 pieces of silver

Prophecy:

"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord." Zechariah 11:12-13

Fulfillment:

"Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, and said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they convenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver." Matthew 26:14-15
__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift: Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God is the object of our faith; the only faith that saves is faith in Him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Through the Bible in a Year - Readings for December 15
December 15: Philippians 2:12-30, Ezekiel 21-22, Isaiah 50

http://www.arcamax.com/ttb-yr.html


Ian
 
Also useful:-

Growing in Your Relationship with God

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Today
* Forever Faithful
* Today's Read through the Bible Passage

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Forever Faithful

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given. . . (NIV) Isaiah 9:6

Christ will be the incarnate God

Prophecy:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his
kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this. (NIV) Isaiah 9:6-7

Fulfillment:

"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"-- which means, "God with us." (NIV) Matthew 1:23

Christ will be a descendant of Abraham

Prophecy:

Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (NIV) Genesis 18:18 ". . . and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me." (NIV) Genesis 22:18

Fulfillment:

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. (NIV) Galatians 3:16

A Prayer:

Father, as I work through some of the prophecies concerning Jesus' birth, I am amazed at the specifics which You gave. . .and fulfilled. You planned all of it in such a precise manner and fulfilled it to the letter. You are faithful to Your Word. Nothing changes Your plans. When You speak, nothing changes what You say. . .and therefore, I can rest assured that what You say will happen in my life, will occur. . . Your promises are sure!

Written by Marji "Mike" Kruger

For more on a relationship with God. . . - http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?t=6yse89bab.0.ggg ... 4027&ts=S0
218&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.anchorlife.org%2Fhtml%2Fwhy_bother.htm
 
Hi Ian,

Please do us a favor;

if you are going to copy/paste other's info, please take the time to properly format it. This columns and things like

Printer Friendly Version | Send this story to a friend | Back to Top

don't need to be in the post.

Peace and thanks.

Vic
 
I'll do my best, with today's amazingly apt episode, Vic:- :wink:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus would work miracles

For Unto Us A Child Is Born...

Prophecy Fulfilled in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth

__________________

Messiah would be a miracle worker

Prophecy:

Say to those with fearful hearts, "Be strong, do not fear; your God will come, he will come with vengeance; with divine retribution he will come to save you." Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. Water will gush forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert.

Isaiah 35:4-6 NIV

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Fulfillment: Jesus healed the blind

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight. And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way."

Mark 10:51-52 KJV

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Fulfillment: Jesus healed the deaf

There some people brought to him a man who was deaf and could hardly talk, and they begged him to place his hand on the man. After he took him aside, away from the crowd, Jesus put his fingers into the man's ears. Then he spit and touched the man's tongue. He looked up to heaven and with a deep sigh said to him, "Ephphatha!" (which means, "Be opened!"). At this, the man's ears were opened, his tongue was loosened and he began to speak plainly.

Mark 7:32-35 NIV

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Fulfillment: Jesus healed the lame

One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?"

"Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk."

At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.

John 5:5-9 NIV

__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith
that saves is faith in Him.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

& so many fulfilled prophecies sure make faith in Christ logical

As Romans 12:1-2 can be put, the only rational, reasonable response to all the wonderful things God has done for us is to be 100% for Him

& take Him @ His Word

Btw, it's ironic that I see an objection to 'pass it on' today, as I've never seen so few posts in the 21/22 hours from my pm logout to my next am logon: only 33 today - till very recent weeks, it was always in the 52-64 range - esp remarkable for Fri pm/Sat am

No doubt it's because there are more & more forum sites - I noticed, @ mid-Oct, that we were @ 7150 members, when for my first 15 months here, we'd grown at a steady 50 new folk a week, so I'd expected to see @ 7500 then - but today's drop is all the more remarkable because the daily gaps, for @ 1/2 weeks now, have seen 42-49 posts made

I'll just check our current figure to complete, both logically & faith-fully, this stage of the continuous assessment process that's built into this ex-salesman..

We're now 7378 folk here, so @ least number growth has resumed

What do faith & logic say @ encouraging more folk to post, or to post more?

Enjoy Sat, y'all!

Ian
 
Vic C. said:
Gracias, mi amigo. :)
Click to expand...

Isn't Spanish such a lovely lingo to sing in?

Before I post today's episode, logically & faith-fully...

Altogether now...

123...

se necessita

una poca de gracias

por te sere

por te sere

Bamba Bamba

To bring English back to life..

Oh no: I think I deleted Word 4 Today - it's @ http://www.arcamax.com

& it's @ prophecies/fulfilment Jesus conquering death & coming back to life..



Jesus would conquer death

For Unto Us A Child Is Born...



Prophecy Fulfilled in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth __________________

Messiah would conquer death for all time

Prophecy:

"He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it."

Isaiah 25:8

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Fulfillment:

"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"

2 Timothy 1:10

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:55-57

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Prophecy:

"I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes."

Hosea 13:14

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Fulfillment:

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:23-27

__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith
that saves is faith in Him.


Ian
 
This climax of the daily series reminds me that several scholars & scientists decided, @ different times, to disprove the Resurrection, but ended up saved & writing classics like Evidence For The Resurrection (Val Grieve) & Who Moved The Stone? (Frank Morrison)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus would rise from the dead

For Unto Us A Child Is Born...

Prophecy Fulfilled in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth

__________________

Being killed, Messiah would rise again from the dead

Prophecy:

"I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 10 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope."

Psalm 16:8-10

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Fulfillment:

"He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Luke 24:6,7

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Prophecy:

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand."

Isaiah 53:10

Fulfillment:

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

Revelation 1:17-18

__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith
that saves is faith in Him.



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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Through the Bible in a Year - Readings for December 18

December 18: Colossians 1:1-23, Ezekiel 25-26, Isaiah 53

Click Here for the complete schedule

Or Copy and paste this link into your browser:
http://www.arcamax.com/ttb-yr.html




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meditation 12/17 - 12/23: Ps 91:9-16 NIV
"Because he loves me"

If you make the Most High your dwelling-
even the LORD, who is my refuge-

then no harm will befall you,
no disaster will come near your tent.

For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;

they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

You will tread upon the lion and the cobra;
you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

"Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

He will call upon me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.

With long life will I satisfy him
and show him my salvation."

Ps 91:9-16 NIV
 
How can I help but continue, in both faith & logic, with today's topic? 8-)

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Jesus would be abandoned and left

For Unto Us A Child Is Born...

Prophecy Fulfilled in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth

__________________

He would be abandoned and left by His followers

Prophecy:

"Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help."

Psalm 22:11

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Fulfillment:

"All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

"And they all forsook him, and fled. "

Mark 14:27,50

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Prophecy:

"He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

Isaiah 53:3

Fulfillment:

And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech betrayeth thee. Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew."

Matthew 26:73-74

__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith
that saves is faith in Him.
 
From the steady increase in views, many value Rock Solid faith in the Solid Rock of Christ - I love this series @ how so many Bible prophecies were & are fulfilled in Him:-

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus would be of the house and lineage of David

For Unto Us A Child Is Born...

Prophecy Fulfilled in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth

__________________

Messiah - of the house and lineage of David.

Prophecy:

"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

Isaiah 9:7

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Fulfillment:

"THE book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."

Matthew 1:1

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Prophecy:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 23:5-6

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Fulfillment:

"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

2 Corinthians 5:20-21

__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith
that saves is faith in Him.



God bless!

Ian :-D
 
MaybeNextTime said:
Also, as far as I'm concerned, if God was to exist "before" time even came to existance, then you can't even call that eternity because by definition it's an infinite ammount of time and "before" time had been created the duration God existed was essentially none.
Click to expand...

Not 'before' but outside of. I'm not saying that's how it is. I'm just saying that makes the most sense to me at the moment. And I'm not calling the existence outside of time eternity; I'm calling the existence forever in time eternity - past, present, and future. The way I understand it (and I could be wrong) is that God existed outside of and inside of time because he encompasses everything. So if time was ever created, I now think that God existed in time and outside of it. Therefore, he could be eternal but that's not to say that his existence should be measured solely in time.

MaybeNextTime said:
He also could not make the universe on purpose, because a purpose requires thinking. Thinking is a process, and that means it happens in time. A process is by definition an order of changes happening in time.
Click to expand...

What process made the universe? What process made time if time was created? How could that order of events then be measured? Unless I'm missing something, I believe you're wrong there. I think that it's said somewhere in the Bible that God's ways are as far above us as the heaven is above the earth. Might not be the exact words but the same basic idea.

MaybeNextTime said:
That would mean the probability of God existing is 1/2 and decreases as we ascribe to that deity deeds it's supposed to have made (the flood, plagues etc.).
Click to expand...

You're saying there's no evidence for his deeds? Here's a page you can mess around with: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

I haven't done my research on the Flood, but you can't say the Scriptural account of the Flood is wrong if you don't know what the original Scriptures say about it. I don't believe in the English Bible necessarily. I believe in Scripture. The two seem to agree on the main points, but they have their differences.
 
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