Faith Without Works is Dead.

[WalterandDebbie]

Faith Without Works is Dead James 2:14-26, esp. vs 17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I'am talking about: We can say and do what we will, but when it come to saying we love our Lord Jesus Christ, do we actually follow him and keep his commandments? John 14:15 Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit - “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

 

[Qchan]

Faith Without Works is Dead James 2:14-26, esp. vs 17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I'am talking about: We can say and do what we will, but when it come to saying we love our Lord Jesus Christ, do we actually follow him and keep his commandments? John 14:15 Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit - “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Hopefully it's not against the rules for me to reply using this Youtube video. This video actually debunked your entire premise.

not yet on the link reba

 

[Brother Mike]

Hopefully it's not against the rules for me to reply using this Youtube video. This video actually debunked your entire premise.

I think you have to a million post before they let you post a video. Might be a bit less.

I see nothing wrong with WalterandDebbie's post though except they made the same mistake in the other thread by Giving an example of Rehab's faith, then Go into a thing about Love which works faith and keeping commandments. James was talking about Faith to heal, move mountains and save us physically. Not obedience that comes from the fruit of the Spirit (spirit) by which Love being one works faith to began with.

I think cutting a little slack would be cool, since James often gets mixed up with "saving" faith.

 

[Qchan]

I think you have to a million post before they let you post a video. Might be a bit less.

I see nothing wrong with WalterandDebbie's post though except they made the same mistake in the other thread by Giving an example of Rehab's faith, then Go into a thing about Love which works faith and keeping commandments. James was talking about Faith to heal, move mountains and save us physically. Not obedience that comes from the fruit of the Spirit (spirit) by which Love being one works faith to began with.

I think cutting a little slack would be cool, since James often gets mixed up with "saving" faith.

A million sounds pretty exaggerated

 

[reba]

Hey Qchan ya remember the little box ya clicked on that said you read and understood the rules....Those rules tell ya how many post ya need before posting links .. the number is 20

 

[Brother Mike]

A million sounds pretty exaggerated

Ok, so it's a little less. Go with what Reba said.

Hey Qchan ya remember the little box ya clicked on that said you read and understood the rules....Those rules tell ya how many post ya need before posting links .. the number is 20

Rules? When did those get posted? Learn something everyday.

 

[reba]

 

[Qchan]

Hey Qchan ya remember the little box ya clicked on that said you read and understood the rules....Those rules tell ya how many post ya need before posting links .. the number is 20

Oh, then I apologize. I did read the rules, but I didn't catch the 20 posts limit.

 

[JLB]

Hopefully it's not against the rules for me to reply using this Youtube video. This video actually debunked your entire premise.

not yet on the link reba

The man posted all scripture.

How is your video supposed to "debunk" scripture?


JLB

 

[Qchan]

The man posted all scripture.

How is your video supposed to "debunk" scripture?


JLB

The preacher in the video quotes scriptures, but explains both sides of the argument.

 

[JLB]

I think you have to a million post before they let you post a video. Might be a bit less.

I see nothing wrong with WalterandDebbie's post though except they made the same mistake in the other thread by Giving an example of Rehab's faith, then Go into a thing about Love which works faith and keeping commandments. James was talking about Faith to heal, move mountains and save us physically. Not obedience that comes from the fruit of the Spirit (spirit) by which Love being one works faith to began with.

I think cutting a little slack would be cool, since James often gets mixed up with "saving" faith.

I agree with you for the most part.

Yet, the principle within the law of faith is the same for salvation, as it is for anything else.

For faith all by itself, without the action of obedience is dead.

For salvation, one must confess with their mouth...with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Without the obedient response of confession, there is no salvation.

...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9


Now comes the discussion of what it means to confess that Jesus is your Lord.

This comes as a direct result of repenting, or turning away from Satan as your Lord.

If Jesus is your Lord, now that you have repented: do you obey Him?


JLB

 

[JLB]

edited reba

JLB

 

[reba]

Oh, then I apologize. I did read the rules, but I didn't catch the 20 posts limit.

you are at 21 as i type this...

 

[Brother Mike]

Now comes the discussion of what it means to confess that Jesus is your Lord.

This comes as a direct result of repenting, or turning away from Satan as your Lord.

If Jesus is your Lord, now that you have repented: do you obey Him?

Anything Faith related needs an action. Someone going up to get born again at the alter is taking an action because they believe that by going up and confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior, they get saved. Jesus said you confess me before men, I'll confess you before the Father.

Most churches do not teach Jesus is Lord, as in do what He says do. Churches even start programs, break up folks in bible classes, start food pantries, all kinds of good works as it seems, but not one time does the Pastor take a few weeks off to get direction on if His church should be doing all that.

The Term Lord and Savior has become a title. Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Not Jesus is my Lord, and He also saves me.

Churches teach about sin, and having good character. You can be sinless, have great character, and not do a blessed thing the Lord asked you to do. I see it all the time, even in Word of Faith Churches.

Much more in churches that don't teach how to hear the Holy Spirit. You can't do what He says do, if your clueless on what He sounds like, and can't filter Him out from the rest of the voices in the world.

So we get people confused on what Faith is to move mountains and how that is different than getting saved. They don't believe It's always God's will to heal, don't believe God does not want you broke, don't know about their Covenant rights as the Seed of Abraham. It don't occur to them to even hear.

So it's no surprise we have the confusion.

Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my commandments. There are only two of them, and you best keep them. In fact, you can't even have marriage problems if you do unto others as you would have them do unto you and love your spouse as Christ loves the church. What the spouse does won't even bother you, as Love takes no thought of wrong done to it.

yet, two simple commandments are hard to keep it seems.

I think people are not being taught properly JLB.

 

[Brother Mike]

you are at 21 as i type this...

Let me make some popcorn, then roll the video.

Here ya go reba

 

[reba]

Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

 

[Runner]

James doesn't say that faith without works "isn't faith" or "isn't sufficient for salvation." He says that faith without works is "dead." The thief on the cross is a pretty clear indication of the sufficiency of faith alone for salvation and of how radical Jesus' message really is. Where the confusion arises (in my opinion) is in James saying that faith without works is dead and that we are "justified" by faith. "Justification" sounds pretty much like "salvation," and thus it is easy to read James as saying that "there is no salvation without works." He is pretty clearly using "justification" in a different sense from "salvation"; there are plenty of materials online that address this. In light of James' overarching emphasis on being "doers" of the Word and not merely "hearers," his message regarding faith is, I believe, simply that faith without works ("doing") is dead. The works are the evidence of the reality of the faith. To claim to have faith without any evidence of this in your life would make a mockery of the Holy Spirit. In this situation, either your supposed faith wasn't real (sincere) in the first place or it immediately died. If you have no works, God alone knows whether your faith was real in the first place; the rest of us would have no way of knowing, although a faith that was supposedly real but never produced any fruit at all would strike me as "highly unlikely." Faith alone is sufficient for salvation, as the example of the thief on the cross shows; but unless you came to faith while nailed to a cross or on your deathbed (in which case you may have no opportunity for works), you are going to embark on a Christian walk of some duration in which your works will be the evidence that your faith was real and hasn't died, that the Holy Spirit is indeed present in your life.

 

[JLB]

Anything Faith related needs an action. Someone going up to get born again at the alter is taking an action because they believe that by going up and confessing Jesus as Lord and Savior, they get saved. Jesus said you confess me before men, I'll confess you before the Father.

Most churches do not teach Jesus is Lord, as in do what He says do. Churches even start programs, break up folks in bible classes, start food pantries, all kinds of good works as it seems, but not one time does the Pastor take a few weeks off to get direction on if His church should be doing all that.

The Term Lord and Savior has become a title. Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Not Jesus is my Lord, and He also saves me.

Churches teach about sin, and having good character. You can be sinless, have great character, and not do a blessed thing the Lord asked you to do. I see it all the time, even in Word of Faith Churches.

Much more in churches that don't teach how to hear the Holy Spirit. You can't do what He says do, if your clueless on what He sounds like, and can't filter Him out from the rest of the voices in the world.

So we get people confused on what Faith is to move mountains and how that is different than getting saved. They don't believe It's always God's will to heal, don't believe God does not want you broke, don't know about their Covenant rights as the Seed of Abraham. It don't occur to them to even hear.

So it's no surprise we have the confusion.

Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my commandments. There are only two of them, and you best keep them. In fact, you can't even have marriage problems if you do unto others as you would have them do unto you and love your spouse as Christ loves the church. What the spouse does won't even bother you, as Love takes no thought of wrong done to it.

yet, two simple commandments are hard to keep it seems.

I think people are not being taught properly JLB.

Agreed!


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Faith that does nothing is Worth Nothing. Keith Moore.

http://www.flcbranson.org/listseries.php?xml=rss/FaithInAction.xml

 

[Runner]

Most churches do not teach Jesus is Lord, as in do what He says do. Churches even start programs, break up folks in bible classes, start food pantries, all kinds of good works as it seems, but not one time does the Pastor take a few weeks off to get direction on if His church should be doing all that.

Are you suggesting that starting food pantries and engaging in "all kinds of good works" could ever be inconsistent with God's will for a church? Who is it that might be giving the pastor direction not to do all kinds of good works - the Holy Spirit? It seems to me that these activities fit pretty squarely within the commandment to do unto others as we would have done unto us. "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27.

They don't believe It's always God's will to heal, don't believe God does not want you broke, .... So it's no surprise we have the confusion.

I don't believe it's always God's will to heal or that we not experience financial distress. Since the experience of life for even the most devout Christians indicates overwhelmingly that this is not always God's will, if I did believe this I think I'd be in a constant state of cognitive and theological dissonance. Even with my limited human perspective, I can think of many good reasons why "not healing" or "allowing financial distress" would serve God's larger purposes.

Faith that does nothing is Worth Nothing. Keith Moore.
http://www.flcbranson.org/listseries.php?xml=rss/FaithInAction.xml

I realize that this sort of ministry and the "prosperity gospel" in general are appealing to many sincere Christians. I question whether James would have been one of them.

"It takes money and it takes stuff and strength to do good works," Moore tells the Branson crowd in a folksy, conversational tone. "Ain't it perverted that so many Christians are broke and sick and they think it's God's will to keep them broke and sick?"

There is no bashfulness about the church's opinion on wealth. In another sermon, Moore led the crowd in chanting, "Rich, rich, rich."​

Does it really take "money and stuff" to do good works? "Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?" James 2:5. Just as a counterpoint, I'd look for a modern James at a place like this ("WORKship"): https://workshipreformation.wordpress.com/ I stumbled upon this place after saying for many years that if I were a pastor, this is exactly what my church would look like.